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Sugar Addiction Debate
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neanderthin wrote: »Our availability for sugar is high. I guess the sugar in Italy isn't addicting.
So, just come on over and eat our sugar---carb consumption is high too. If you've never been here, you should plan a trip. Seeing is believing. Check out the fabulous pastry shops with long lines of skinny people waiting to get in.
It's not actually granular sugar that people seek out, not at all, and actually, most couldn't and don't just consume teaspoons of sugar or we would be hearing about it considered it's such a hot topic, yeah that basically isn't the situation and never has been.
That leaves food as the culprit.
Is it refined grains like all purpose flour? Don't see many people with their heads buried in flour bins, no that's not happening. The obvious choice then would be the sugar bombs we call fruit I would think, but as we know most Americans don't consume enough fruit according to the USDA, so it's not fruit, or sugar in this format. Ok, so it's got to be something else, another carbohydrate that converts in the body to sugar for example like rice, potatoes, beets and corn and I'm talking naked with absolutely no other ingredients added, no, in this context I don't see any evidence. We can assume then that granular sugar, refined carbohydrates and whole food carbs high in "sugar" are not "addicting" on their own in these forms. And the science bares this out, time and time again, to which I agree.
In order to be "addicted" to a substance we need to be motivated enough to engage over and over again with the result in the context of food, "overconsumption" taking place which none of the aforementioned are particularly attractive on their own for that to happen. Adding a fat and a salt makes most foods more attractive and palatable for consumption, generally speaking. How much more rice, potato and corn could a person eat if a fat like butter and salt were added? Try eating chocolate cake where the salt was omitted, most wouldn't be coming back for seconds.
Basically, processed food companies have that worked out for the general population is quantities that most people find attractive enough to make processed and highly processed foods about 70% of the total cost of food in the USA. When you consider the American population is also about 75% overweight and obese that a correlation could be drawn or at least the requirement for overconsumption has been met. I'll keep the chemical part of the equation out but leave these 2 studies for your entertainment.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21420985/
Moreover, a more complete understanding of the relationship between DA neurotransmission and insulin may help to uncover etiological bases for "food addiction" and the growing epidemic of obesity. This review focuses on the role of insulin signaling in regulating DA homeostasis and DA signaling, and the potential impact of impaired insulin signaling in obesity and psychostimulant abuse.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24238362/
Dopamine (DA) regulates emotional and motivational behavior through the mesolimbic dopaminergic pathway. Changes in DA signaling in mesolimbic neurotransmission are widely believed to modify reward-related behaviors and are therefore closely associated with drug addiction. This review focuses on the functions of the DA system, with specific focus on the physiological interpretation and the role of DA D2 receptor signaling in food addiction.
In my opinion in a population wide context, it's the chronic "overconsumption" that initiates the signaling within the body to become dysfunctional and not until then. We see populations that consume very high carbohydrates where this isn't happening but those countries or populations aren't overconsuming as it relates to their energy balance like India, China and most Asian countries and some EU countries like Italy for example. Again as soon as consumption exceeds energy balance bad things happen which for the most part are referred to as metabolic syndrome.
As far as Italy is concerned I suspect that the rates of obesity and people that are overweight which are less than half of the USA is that overconsumption hasn't hit critical mass. Statistics are funny, the USA and Canada for example had a similar obesity rate in the 70's as does Italy now, so you know what's coming if things aren't different, which I don't seem to think they are. I do see southern Italy's rise in obesity in the last decade especially in young people, and it always starts with the young will probably find a similar situation like the USA as other countries like Canada and the UK both with the same problems and on the rise.
There's just way too much money and politics to make changes and it'll be the perseverance of a grass roots movement by concerned Doctors and scientists and the general population that hopefully get the ship headed in a different direction. I don't blame the Doctors that are treating the general population because with their busy schedules there just isn't enough time in the day to research the latest data and then have the possible situation where they deviate from the legal issues of "standard of care" set out by the power that be and have their license's taken away, but until then it's medication for all. cheers.
Childhood obesity rates in Italy are much higher than adult rates - so I think you are correct that it just hasn't fully hit there yet.
They have always been high--for a reason. Italy was way behind in child health care until probably the 70's. In the generations before WWII a fat child had more probability to survive. My MIL always thought fat children were beautiful and healthy. When they became teens things changed drastically. They were considered fat. The vast majority slimmed down.
Another note: there is no adapting (so far) because a few are fat--clothes are in smaller sizes, chairs are not built for overweight, it's impossible to drive everywhere,etc... This means it's uncomfortable to be obese or very over weight here. They don't make it easy.3 -
neanderthin wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »Our availability for sugar is high. I guess the sugar in Italy isn't addicting. So, just come on over and eat our sugar---carb consumption is high too. If you've never been here, you should plan a trip. Seeing is believing. Check out the fabulous pastry shops with long lines of skinny people waiting to get in.
It's not actually granular sugar that people seek out, not at all, and actually, most couldn't and don't just consume teaspoons of sugar or we would be hearing about it considered it's such a hot topic, yeah that basically isn't the situation and never has been.
That leaves food as the culprit.
Is it refined grains like all purpose flour? Don't see many people with their heads buried in flour bins, no that's not happening. The obvious choice then would be the sugar bombs we call fruit I would think, but as we know most Americans don't consume enough fruit according to the USDA, so it's not fruit, or sugar in this format. Ok, so it's got to be something else, another carbohydrate that converts in the body to sugar for example like rice, potatoes, beets and corn and I'm talking naked with absolutely no other ingredients added, no, in this context I don't see any evidence. We can assume then that granular sugar, refined carbohydrates and whole food carbs high in "sugar" are not "addicting" on their own in these forms. And the science bares this out, time and time again, to which I agree.
In order to be "addicted" to a substance we need to be motivated enough to engage over and over again with the result in the context of food, "overconsumption" taking place which none of the aforementioned are particularly attractive on their own for that to happen. Adding a fat and a salt makes most foods more attractive and palatable for consumption, generally speaking. How much more rice, potato and corn could a person eat if a fat like butter and salt were added? Try eating chocolate cake where the salt was omitted, most wouldn't be coming back for seconds.
Basically, processed food companies have that worked out for the general population is quantities that most people find attractive enough to make processed and highly processed foods about 70% of the total cost of food in the USA. When you consider the American population is also about 75% overweight and obese that a correlation could be drawn or at least the requirement for overconsumption has been met. I'll keep the chemical part of the equation out but leave these 2 studies for your entertainment.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21420985/
Moreover, a more complete understanding of the relationship between DA neurotransmission and insulin may help to uncover etiological bases for "food addiction" and the growing epidemic of obesity. This review focuses on the role of insulin signaling in regulating DA homeostasis and DA signaling, and the potential impact of impaired insulin signaling in obesity and psychostimulant abuse.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24238362/
Dopamine (DA) regulates emotional and motivational behavior through the mesolimbic dopaminergic pathway. Changes in DA signaling in mesolimbic neurotransmission are widely believed to modify reward-related behaviors and are therefore closely associated with drug addiction. This review focuses on the functions of the DA system, with specific focus on the physiological interpretation and the role of DA D2 receptor signaling in food addiction.
As far as Italy is concerned I suspect that the rates of obesity and people that are overweight which are less than half of the USA is that overconsumption hasn't hit critical mass. Statistics are funny, the USA and Canada for example had a similar obesity rate in the 70's as does Italy now, so you know what's coming if things aren't different, which I don't seem to think they are. I do see southern Italy's rise in obesity in the last decade especially in young people, and it always starts with the young will probably find a similar situation like the USA as other countries like Canada and the UK both with the same problems and on the rise.
There's just way too much money and politics to make changes and it'll be the perseverance of a grass roots movement by concerned Doctors and scientists and the general population that hopefully get the ship headed in a different direction. I don't blame the Doctors that are treating the general population because with their busy schedules there just isn't enough time in the day to research the latest data and then have the possible situation where they deviate from the legal issues of "standard of care" set out by the power that be and have their license's taken away, but until then it's medication for all. cheers.
I agree with you that things are changing, even here. Most on talk shows are pointing the finger at fast food places that have been cropping up in the past 5 years and the younger generation likes to go there. What's saving us so far is that there is no free refill on soda as there is in the States. People generally here drink less soda, although that is changing too. The few fast food places I've been to or steak houses, give large portions that Italians aren't used to. If that becomes a habit---that's all she wrote.
People don't eat sugar straight up. It's in something. Our breads have less added sugar, and our pastries are not heavily sweet, but they are wonderful.
Yeah, it's funny that in France the generic white bread from America and Canada for that matter can't be called bread legally, it has too much sugar and is classified as a pastry.
Are the young people getting away from the traditional family meal planning, preserving, daily trips for produce and breads or the differences in the rural and urban lifestyles that might erode some of the well know traditions that Italy is well known for. It breaks my heart as a chef if this is happening. It's happened here but there is also a resurgence in food and more focus on local and whole foods that wasn't as apparent a decade ago, so there is some hope. Cheers.
As far as I can see (I'm just one who observes and looks around), the younger generation does indulge, however, they also want to be thin, so the majority stay that way. We have a strong focus on food quality. Every Saturday and Sunday there are several programs that tour the countryside interviewing farmers, factories, and towns with all their specialties. You meet the goats, cows, pigs, horses, etc. and most are known by name. You see the cheese being made, recipes are shown, the countryside is in it's glory. They are fantastic, and all Italians know where their food comes from and are proud of it. I, myself, take fresh basil and crush it under my little grandson's nose, and have them smell fresh tomatoes,... People enjoy food.
Another thing. People here don't sit and snack on the sofas while watching TV. You eat in the kitchen.1 -
.snowflake954 wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »Our availability for sugar is high. I guess the sugar in Italy isn't addicting. So, just come on over and eat our sugar---carb consumption is high too. If you've never been here, you should plan a trip. Seeing is believing. Check out the fabulous pastry shops with long lines of skinny people waiting to get in.
It's not actually granular sugar that people seek out, not at all, and actually, most couldn't and don't just consume teaspoons of sugar or we would be hearing about it considered it's such a hot topic, yeah that basically isn't the situation and never has been.
That leaves food as the culprit.
Is it refined grains like all purpose flour? Don't see many people with their heads buried in flour bins, no that's not happening. The obvious choice then would be the sugar bombs we call fruit I would think, but as we know most Americans don't consume enough fruit according to the USDA, so it's not fruit, or sugar in this format. Ok, so it's got to be something else, another carbohydrate that converts in the body to sugar for example like rice, potatoes, beets and corn and I'm talking naked with absolutely no other ingredients added, no, in this context I don't see any evidence. We can assume then that granular sugar, refined carbohydrates and whole food carbs high in "sugar" are not "addicting" on their own in these forms. And the science bares this out, time and time again, to which I agree.
In order to be "addicted" to a substance we need to be motivated enough to engage over and over again with the result in the context of food, "overconsumption" taking place which none of the aforementioned are particularly attractive on their own for that to happen. Adding a fat and a salt makes most foods more attractive and palatable for consumption, generally speaking. How much more rice, potato and corn could a person eat if a fat like butter and salt were added? Try eating chocolate cake where the salt was omitted, most wouldn't be coming back for seconds.
Basically, processed food companies have that worked out for the general population is quantities that most people find attractive enough to make processed and highly processed foods about 70% of the total cost of food in the USA. When you consider the American population is also about 75% overweight and obese that a correlation could be drawn or at least the requirement for overconsumption has been met. I'll keep the chemical part of the equation out but leave these 2 studies for your entertainment.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21420985/
Moreover, a more complete understanding of the relationship between DA neurotransmission and insulin may help to uncover etiological bases for "food addiction" and the growing epidemic of obesity. This review focuses on the role of insulin signaling in regulating DA homeostasis and DA signaling, and the potential impact of impaired insulin signaling in obesity and psychostimulant abuse.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24238362/
Dopamine (DA) regulates emotional and motivational behavior through the mesolimbic dopaminergic pathway. Changes in DA signaling in mesolimbic neurotransmission are widely believed to modify reward-related behaviors and are therefore closely associated with drug addiction. This review focuses on the functions of the DA system, with specific focus on the physiological interpretation and the role of DA D2 receptor signaling in food addiction.
As far as Italy is concerned I suspect that the rates of obesity and people that are overweight which are less than half of the USA is that overconsumption hasn't hit critical mass. Statistics are funny, the USA and Canada for example had a similar obesity rate in the 70's as does Italy now, so you know what's coming if things aren't different, which I don't seem to think they are. I do see southern Italy's rise in obesity in the last decade especially in young people, and it always starts with the young will probably find a similar situation like the USA as other countries like Canada and the UK both with the same problems and on the rise.
There's just way too much money and politics to make changes and it'll be the perseverance of a grass roots movement by concerned Doctors and scientists and the general population that hopefully get the ship headed in a different direction. I don't blame the Doctors that are treating the general population because with their busy schedules there just isn't enough time in the day to research the latest data and then have the possible situation where they deviate from the legal issues of "standard of care" set out by the power that be and have their license's taken away, but until then it's medication for all. cheers.
I agree with you that things are changing, even here. Most on talk shows are pointing the finger at fast food places that have been cropping up in the past 5 years and the younger generation likes to go there. What's saving us so far is that there is no free refill on soda as there is in the States. People generally here drink less soda, although that is changing too. The few fast food places I've been to or steak houses, give large portions that Italians aren't used to. If that becomes a habit---that's all she wrote.
People don't eat sugar straight up. It's in something. Our breads have less added sugar, and our pastries are not heavily sweet, but they are wonderful.
Yeah, it's funny that in France the generic white bread from America and Canada for that matter can't be called bread legally, it has too much sugar and is classified as a pastry.
Are the young people getting away from the traditional family meal planning, preserving, daily trips for produce and breads or the differences in the rural and urban lifestyles that might erode some of the well know traditions that Italy is well known for. It breaks my heart as a chef if this is happening. It's happened here but there is also a resurgence in food and more focus on local and whole foods that wasn't as apparent a decade ago, so there is some hope. Cheers.
As far as I can see (I'm just one who observes and looks around), the younger generation does indulge, however, they also want to be thin, so the majority stay that way. We have a strong focus on food quality. Every Saturday and Sunday there are several programs that tour the countryside interviewing farmers, factories, and towns with all their specialties. You meet the goats, cows, pigs, horses, etc. and most are known by name. You see the cheese being made, recipes are shown, the countryside is in it's glory. They are fantastic, and all Italians know where their food comes from and are proud of it. I, myself, take fresh basil and crush it under my little grandson's nose, and have them smell fresh tomatoes,... People enjoy food.
Another thing. People here don't sit and snack on the sofas while watching TV. You eat in the kitchen.
If one was to research childhood obesity in Japan it's pretty interesting what the Country legislated for school meals until after high school. Basically the obesity rate in Japan is around 4% but kids were moving up much quicker. It's fascinating the culture of food in Japan and kids actually ate in classrooms and cleaned up. Anyway, the increase in childhood obesity went the other way. Home cooked meals or any food was strictly prohibited. The culture in Japan and how they think as a population is unique and hold authorities in the highest regard and basically conform readily, this based on the full transparency of gov't, so they have a different kind of trust than most other cultures it seems. pretty interesting.0 -
I was not aware of that, but I did start making my own bread, because I thought the bread I bought at my local Loblaws was disgustingly sweet, salty and fatty. Bwerk.neanderthin wrote: »Yeah, it's funny that in France the generic white bread from America and Canada for that matter can't be called bread legally, it has too much sugar and is classified as a pastry.
Even the recipe book that came with my breadmaker, said to add sugar and oil and way too much salt. I have never understood why. Sugar and oil are absolutely not needed for baking bread.
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Another thing I do when baking is cut the sugar in the recipe in half (at least). I think cutting back on sugar content where you can can help re-educate your sugar plate. When I go back to the States for a visit there are things I can't tolerate anymore. Especially that sticky sweet frosting that they put on cakes. I have to scrape it off.1
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lol, I must be "addicted" to sugar then because I have it every day and it makes me feel good.
Wait then exercise must be my other addiction..................................or it's just part of my regular consistent routine.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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2
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lol, I must be "addicted" to sugar then because I have it every day and it makes me feel good.
Wait then exercise must be my other addiction..................................or it's just part of my regular consistent routine.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Whoa.....then you have to start your own thread "The Exercise Addiction Thread".
However, over exercising is a problem for some.1 -
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BartBVanBockstaele wrote: »
Can you be more specific?0 -
Wikipedia is a reputable source for information? Lol0
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Ninerbuff...If you can eat sugar everyday and not lose control thats awesome. In my case I can't have sugar because I am one of those people that can not control it. Once I start I can't stop. Not EVERYONE gets addicted to sugar, just like not EVERYONE becomes an alcoholic or binge drinker. Some are fine with moderation ( having a drink or two, having a piece of chocolate), but some of us cannot moderate due of the addictive properties of the substance. I have tried several times to control the amount I take but I fail every time. If it's in the house it's gone. Not even baking chocolate chips are safe around here.
Many former alcoholics who quit drinking have huge sugar cravings to replace the "feel good" chemicals (dopamine hit) they got from alcohol. I know. I used to be one.3 -
saggynaggy65 wrote: »Wikipedia is a reputable source for information? Lol
says the poster who used Youtube as their source
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I was trying to heed the comments I got before by not being specific, but it you want more information on this rather questionable indidividual, you'll find more here than I would be able to pen together in a day:neanderthin wrote: »BartBVanBockstaele wrote: »
Can you be more specific?
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/functional-medicine-in-practice/
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It is not, and no sane person would dare to claim otherwise. That said, Wikipedia has one great thing going for it: it (usually) provides sources for the claims it makes. While I would never contemplate using Wikipedia as a source of information, it is nevertheless highly recommended, precisely for that very reason. It is a good starting point for people who don't know where to start.saggynaggy65 wrote: »Wikipedia is a reputable source for information? Lol
The Youtube video, for example, provided zero sources for its claims. While that does not *prove* anything, it is most definitely a warning sign.2 -
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The keyword is "excessive". The problem with sugar is that it is currently so fashionable to vilify the product that people don't read that word while realising that absolutely everything is harmful and even deadly in excessive amounts, even water. That is what "excessive" means. It would be much more astonishing if we found something that was harmful/deadly when not used in excessive amounts, which is, of course, impossible, since that amount would then be the excessive amount ^_^saggynaggy65 wrote: »
I see this whole thing as a kind of a repeat of Hahnemann's attempt to vilify coffee. He did not succeed, and then came up with homœopathy, which was more successful but also essentially dead until its relatively recent revival.1 -
BartBVanBockstaele wrote: »
I was trying to heed the comments I got before by not being specific, but it you want more information on this rather questionable indidividual, you'll find more here than I would be able to pen together in a day:neanderthin wrote: »BartBVanBockstaele wrote: »
Can you be more specific?
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/functional-medicine-in-practice/
Can you offer a specific example so that we all could understand better your statement about Dr. Hyman, thanks.0
https://youtu.be/BWGl3TIO00A
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