Did your ancestors recently experience food insecurities?
AdahPotatah2024
Posts: 2,261 Member
So my question is about what you know of your ancestors' recent food insecurities and how might your issues be correlated? Do you have Irish ancestors that experienced famine in the 1800s? Do you have American Indian ancestors whose foodways were completely demolished? Were your recent ancestors in the Midwest US during the great depression? What do you know of possible epigenetic influences toward your eating behaviors?
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I have Irish and American Indian ancestors and I feel that some of my family are still experiencing difficulties over what happened almost 200 years ago...1
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https://youtu.be/gAjpjQJIWMY?si=OIK1JfYzxucL9BCg
Does anyone know details about the last 200 years of the French diet?0 -
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Yes, my Irish ancestors ate a lot of potatoes cause they were cheap. The dad was murdered for his paycheck during the "Catholic-Protestant wars". They were neither. The oldest son was only 12. There was a small baby, so mom and the kids really struggled.
My parents lived through rationing during the war. Before my time. They lived on a farm, had a garden, so good summers, slimmer winters. Mom said the thing they missed most was sugar (and tires). My older brother and sister who were small at the time never developed a taste for sugar and were thin all their lives (6'4" 160 and 5'7" 110).1 -
It’s not just my ancestors.
I have experienced food insecurity. Both as a child and a few periods as an adult.
My husband frequently went hungry as a child too.
I am sure both culturally and personally there are strong effects.2 -
My people are Basque. Tough SOBs. I grew up on tripe, lamb heads and beef tounge.5
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My father's family were basically subsistence farmers (in the US) in the early 1900s, and not always food secure. They were still mostly subsistence farmers by the great depression, but that was not their most insecure time period. My dad was born in 1917, midway through 9 children, so reaching adolescence by the depression, with several older siblings who'd already left home and were working off the farm.
His mother's history isn't completely clear to me, but she had left Sweden in the later 1800s as an orphan, and told of living one Winter in a tent with her siblings, so I think food insecurity was part of her life as well.
My mother's family were (AFAIK) more secure, though working class - at least the family of her maternal grandparents, who primarily raised her.
I didn't know either of my biological grandfathers, know little of their history. My paternal grandmother (the Swedish one) was fairly slim her whole life, definitely so when raising that big family. My maternal grandmother (who didn't raise my mother) was quite obese. My mother was obese beginning sometime after marriage (married at 42) and/or my birth (when she was 43). My father was generally slim from a very physical job, but gained weight in retirement, perhaps to the point of being technical obese (not sure - quite heavy, though). After a few years, he lost weight (intentionally) and stayed at a reasonably healthy weight for the rest of his life.
I was overweight to class 1 obese most of my adult life, slim child, probably technically overweight in high school, thin during college (higher activity level), then gradually gained until I got here at age 59 and reached a healthy weight sometime at age 60; now 68 still at a healthy weight.
I have no idea about my epigenetics. It's academically interesting to me, but as a practical matter I'm not very focused on things like that (that I can't change).
I feel like the behavior I saw as models during childhood had some effect on what I perceived as "normal", and therefore on how I was inclined to behave. As I said, my mom was (mildly?) obese by the time I reached an age of awareness, my dad wasn't but was quite occupationally active (ditto in home life) so could eat quite a bit of food and stay slim. Girls being athletic wasn't mainstream in my youth (1960s, +/-). Being an only child (indulged) probably didn't help. I don't blame my parents at all for anything in this realm (or most others). My choices as an adult are my responsibility.2 -
AdahPotatah2024 wrote: »https://youtu.be/gAjpjQJIWMY?si=OIK1JfYzxucL9BCg
Does anyone know details about the last 200 years of the French diet?
French ancestry here. Overall I don’t know if I have any epigenetic predispositions based on my ancestors lifestyles in France - but who knows 🤷🏼♀️ I do like Beaujolais and foie gras. (Jk)
In many articles I’ve read of late- the science behind epigenetics and how environmental influences express themselves on your genes and health shows how much nurture is just as important as nature for wellness.
@AdahPotatah2024 I do think the subject is fascinating. How much gets imprinted on our genes?
The woman who does these videos - Alice in Paris really leans into French vs. American stereotypes.
She monetizes the “Frenchgirl chic” to the 9th degree. I think she is a bit full of crap… but it markets her videos.
You may be interested in this article -
https://frontlinegenomics.com/epigenetics-and-ancestry-how-our-history-shapes-who-we-are/
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The reality is that pretty much every person's ancestors have experienced food insecurity but for a very small number. It was the reality of the world for most of it history. It was only with the industrial revolution and the increase in food production through modern farming that that pattern started to change. Now food insecurity in the more developed world in far less common, and even in less developed areas of the world, it is better than it was for many.9
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Thanks for all the interesting comments and link to more research! I sort of skimmed through an old study of adopted adults that linked eating behavior and obesity more to biological parents than their parents who raised them.
& that French themed video popped up and got me thinking why the French have so much better eating habits than everyone else! I am sure there's been food insecurities in that region, as well..
I think for families of immigrants, the changes in diet would have been more abrupt/extensive over the last 100 years or so.
If I wasn't of such a mixed up ancestry, I'd try to follow a traditional diet of my ancestors. Although. probably following any traditional diet would be good!0 -
It's my understanding that descendants of peoples who suffered famine/starvation that actually killed part of the population tend to inherit fat-retention traits since those were the people who survived.3
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My story is actually only a generation back.
My grandfather abandoned Grandma with four young children, in an era there was no safety net. Sink or swim. Grandma took a secretarial course and dog paddled as hard as she could, and managed to keep everyone together, bless her heart.
Mom never talked about growing up, but she hated oatmeal and I asked her why.
The Jewel Tea man (think early grocery delivery) knew the desperation of their situation and would leave boxes of oatmeal at the door. It was often all they had.
When “butter crust” bread became a thing back in the late 60’s, mom would buy a loaf and feed it to us as she shopped. Her only fond memory of her dad was him baking bread.
Food “insecurity” was evident in her behavior as an adult.
Then mom had two handicapped kids, again, in an era where there was no social safety net to help out. On top of food insecurity, now she was stress eating, too.
She kept our hall closet literally filled to the brim with junk food. We had unlimited access to it and took full advantage. Even when money was tight, she’d forego healthy foods and meats so she’d have that closet full of foods that weren’t available to her as a child.
She was morbidly obese within a few years of marriage. Her constant refrain to me was “you’re going to be just like me.” She was very happy when I went from underweight teen to obese myself within four or five years of marriage, and would do everything she could to sabotage me anytime she saw me losing weight. (We worked together for decades).
I don’t know why I believed everything she said, other than she was “mom”. Her own mom was the size of a small bird. Couldn’t have weighed 90 pounds.
So yeah, “ancestral” issues with food, but nearer than historical.8 -
Oh, and husband’s father was a young man during the depression, but in the Deep South.
He would not eat chicken and would become angry if served any.
His explanation was that chicken was the only meat they had during the depression and he was sick of it.
I found myself thinking ,”Damn,man. Lotsa people would’ve killed to have ‘only’ chicken, count your blessings”.
Food insecurity is a wierd thing.5 -
My mum grew up without enough to eat, often having to go without meals or trying pot luck on the dented, out of date and unlabelled tins (my granddad used to buy a box of bashed tins at a cheap price - no labels, so it might be tomato soup, custard, baked beans, sweetcorn or anything). The family were allowed to pick one to share. I guess anything was better than nothing.
She also had poorly fitting shoes (always hand me downs from other people) so has bad foot issues now, from having her feet squashed. Obviously too soon for epigenetic factors, but I do know she always has too much food in her house, and her freezer is stuffed full of food she and my dad will never get around to eating.
Food poverty is sadly increasing in the UK - being hungry is now quite common for a significant percentage.3 -
claireychn074 wrote: »My mum grew up without enough to eat, often having to go without meals or trying pot luck on the dented, out of date and unlabelled tins (my granddad used to buy a box of bashed tins at a cheap price - no labels, so it might be tomato soup, custard, baked beans, sweetcorn or anything). The family were allowed to pick one to share. I guess anything was better than nothing.
She also had poorly fitting shoes (always hand me downs from other people) so has bad foot issues now, from having her feet squashed. Obviously too soon for epigenetic factors, but I do know she always has too much food in her house, and her freezer is stuffed full of food she and my dad will never get around to eating.
Food poverty is sadly increasing in the UK - being hungry is now quite common for a significant percentage.
My husband also has significant emotional issues from growing up extremely food insecure (parental neglect and poverty) Behavior very similar to what your mom and dad do.
If the fridge is full he’s OK. If we’re out of milk or bread he gets agitated.
In the early days of his dementia, before diagnosis (and thus before the time I was able to move back home) he would go to Costco multiple times a week and buy sausages. He would forget about the ones he already had. One time, about two months before the official diagnosis, I showed up home and cleared 50 pounds of sausages out of the fridge. Gave them to a bunch of friends who were living on SSDI and food stamps. Hooo Boy were they ever appreciative!
Part of my routine of caring for him is managing his food anxiety by making sure he doesn’t ever get into an emotional loop worrying about food.
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I wonder what regional groups have not experienced food insecurity, for whatever reason/tragedy.
Within our 3 generations prior, there was an Irish potato famine, European poverty which evoked emmigration to the US.
Even after were swings in prosperity through war, but the living memories passed to me were the dustbowl and poverty thru the great depression which evoked all sides of the family to head further West.
Grams and gramps married, had a car, fry pan and paring knife and followed crops for harvest, taking work as available.
Come WWII, gramps was unable to serve with a deaf ear, so he took 3 jobs to bank as much as possible figuring there would be no work again post-war. One was to patrol shipyard docks for the Guard.
During the war, things such as food items/sugar, gas, shoes, rubber all severely rationed.
Post war, prosperity arrived and the end of shortages. All the many women in our extended took to loving family and friends, their group meetings, with overkill sweets, treats and potluck dishes; enough to feed armies.
Growing up with these people, we had sugar for breakfast - think waffles, sugar added to sugared cereals. Mid-morning snacks or milk or juice with cookies or cupcakes.
Lunch more sugar again, say soup sandwich and a dessert. Follwed mid-afternoon desserts again, and yet again at dinner, mid-evening with a full sugar pop/soda, and finally a smidge snack at bedtime.
And that was just the regular day, daily eats. On top of that all the special celebrations marking birthdays and seasonal feasts and treats; think pumpkin pie at Thanksgiving, strawberry shortcake in May, homemade ice cream come the 4th July... the occasions, reasons to feast were rather endless as another occasion rolled around often.
So, upshot? There may be an epigenetic event or trigger that gets turned on driving the feasting/excess eating. A serious trigger can be food scarcity for a person that drives food hoarding and eating after scarcity is over.
And, I would suspect that eating styles are shared within family/friends - in part cultural, passed on, learned/taught to the children/next generations and perpetuated in those groups who have not experienced food scarcity.
Now? In a time of high inflation and rising interest rates, seems people are again encountering poverty/personal scarcity... and this is pretty much a new experience for many living now.
A difference? Are people still frugal? Still preserving, handling food like it is a scarce thing? In my circles, no one I know preserves food beyond maybe freezing meats and purchased frozen veggies, some dry/canned foods in the pantry. Heck, most don't cook from scratch, they use boxes and cans, stir together, bake/nuke. Most don't know how to make stock/broths, soups/stews or sauces from scratch. And mosr eat out/takeout often.
I suspect future change in eating may come from a prolonged need, or... like people here, a desire for a healthier eating/exercise approach.
I feel like the people here are actually the exception out of a much broader population that has progressively moved further and deeper into eating processed foods prepared by others in whole or in part... and lead more sedentary lives due to modern conveniences and entertainment, and these factors and broader cultural factors are likely at least as contributory to rising obesity as perhaps epigenitics/scarcity events, if not more.
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Well, I hate to say it.. but except for the single mom struggle that has probably always existed in society- somewhat easier today-
most families before the last few generations had at least one person whose full time job was to do those things- clean, can things,garden, and cook from scratch..who has time to do those things now with both parents having to work just to afford the high grocery costs and housing?
It is possible, but takes a lot of effort/strategic planning. So much easier and stress free to just cook a box of something...or throw a meal in the microwave and fill the fridge with cans of soda.
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To be honest, I do wonder whether there's anyone here whose ancestors didn't experience food insecurity in the last 300 years. Two world wars with a big influence on the local population in Europe, various civil wars, famines, industrialization was harsh on working families, not free farm workers also didn't have limitless food. Thus I do wonder whether food insecurity in the past should be used as an excuse for having problems with managing food intake.5
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To be honest, I do wonder whether there's anyone here whose ancestors didn't experience food insecurity in the last 300 years. Two world wars with a big influence on the local population in Europe, various civil wars, famines, industrialization was harsh on working families, not free farm workers also didn't have limitless food. Thus I do wonder whether food insecurity in the past should be used as an excuse for having problems with managing food intake.
In a practical sense, there's no point in using food insecurity in the past as an excuse.
Yes, it's academically interesting. Someday, maybe there will be therapeutic targets (or personal strategies) that exploit what we learn about the epigenetics - or even basic genetics -that will help people better manage food intake.
But we can't change our own past, let alone our ancestors' past. (About all we can do, if so inclined, is thank those ancestors for living long and adequately enough that we're actually here now.
)
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The only reason to spend time thinking about factors we can't change - unless we're among the academics - is to figure out how to get over, under, around, through or otherwise past those obstacles. In the context of achieving our personal goals, anything else is a waste of time and energy.
That, to me, quite clearly applies to my genetics and my past behavior or past influences. All I can do is change what I do now, and going forward. If I don't, I think that's on me.
My opinions only, as always, of course.
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I think it is helpful to assess, identify and understand our 'problematic eating' habit/behavior so we can make a strategy for improvement. In that respect, helpful to identify family/friend and cultural/traditions, keep what works, practice changing something we want to change. As i tried to make adjustments/changes, those around me have not wanted to make those changes, and it has been incumbant on me to make personal changes.
Sometimes, people just want to be given simple 'do this' roadmap/diet, and I wonder how many permanently succeed. Aren't the stats we hear of 95% regain/aka considered failure pretty grim?
Somehow, as we hear people here advocate endlessly, real permant success with weight management comes from real changes, intentionally made. Places like MFP are a resource full of tools and support for those trying.
I would hope that more is done to provide information and helpful support through insurance, education, even affordable real food sources...
Shifts do occur over generations, cycles can be broken. I remember mom trying to create meals with a variety of colors as she was taught in her home ec/health classes.... at a time when processed foods, think tv dinners, were just beginning to hit the market and decades later, processed foods have displaced a lot of scratch cooking. Think education could help improve things like that, f. ex.2 -
Totally OT, but your comment makes me question regain stats.
Technically, I have regained twenty pounds from my lowest weight. But I haven’t regained size. It’s been muscle development.
I wonder where I’d fall in that stat.2 -
springlering62 wrote: »Totally OT, but your comment makes me question regain stats.
Technically, I have regained twenty pounds from my lowest weight. But I haven’t regained size. It’s been muscle development.
I wonder where I’d fall in that stat.
You have done great @springlering62 ~ wouldn't that transition change from fat to muscle be body recomp? Under any terms, would imagine it as success and part of the 5% who make it and hold the loss.
There is a national weight registry where people register and they publish info about the practices successful lose and maintain people do after the weight loss phase. the name escapes me, maybe NCWR? lol,
So, I don't know the current stats - sometimes read things that are more optimistic. The one that made me saddest was with the most super obese who had weight loss surgery - that less than 1% had kept off the weight off for 5+ years...
I just think a real shift has to be made in lifestyle - we can't return to what got us so overweight... I am not sure how many pass the hurdles - and keep it off. I have not. Yet. More practice ahead.
-- and i don't think it can be boiled down to a few simple meal plans or skills. I wish... But I think this kind of site can help people through the process. I am thankful for everyone who makes the time to share here.4 -
Food is an emotional issue; many factors come into play. I find the OP question a very good one.. and responses so interesting. It is helpful to try and figure out "why am I this way?"... the value we put on food does stem from our upbringing and our parents learned food values and experiences. Mix that with an individual psychological make up...and everyone responds differently to like situations.
My husband always talks about his Grandfather ... showing him an empty jar of mayonnaise or peanut butter..and he'd say.. "most people would throw this away and think it is empty." and he'd go on to get a spoon and scrape one more spoonful out of the jar. He also lived during the depression.
...and my husband and I refer to that all the time... I think I feel guilt if I don't use every drop of every single thing...and that includes toothpaste and soap. ha! He wasn't even my Grandfather.
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springlering62 wrote: »Oh, and husband’s father was a young man during the depression, but in the Deep South.
He would not eat chicken and would become angry if served any.
His explanation was that chicken was the only meat they had during the depression and he was sick of it.
I found myself thinking ,”Damn,man. Lotsa people would’ve killed to have ‘only’ chicken, count your blessings”.
Food insecurity is a wierd thing.
My grandmother was the same way with chicken! To the day she died at 94 years old, she refused to eat chicken because it was "poor people food". Mind you, we were not wealthy by any means, but she equated the chicken with the Depression. Once the family wasn't struggling, she only wanted to serve "better" cuts of meat.
She also refused to eat apples. During the Depression, she and my grandfather drove from Chicago to Washington state because they heard there were good jobs at the apple orchards. It turned out to be a big scam...they worked very hard, but ended up in debt to the "company store". They had to drive off in the middle of the night with their newborn baby to escape it. No apples in her house, ever!3 -
I just skimmed over a study where they were specifically studying epigenetic factors in plants, and the changes lasted 8 generations... I'm glad epigenic changes can be positive, not just negative for future generations.
I'm 5 or 6 generations since my ancestors in Ireland experienced famine (They moved here, afterwards, right around the civil war) and 6 generations after "The Trail of Tears" (when my half white ancestors had some major hardships.)
I don't think either of those affect me much biologically, but I can see distinct differences to how those traumas were passed down culturally.1 -
Controlled experiments in mice have allowed researchers to hone in on this question. A 2013 study found that there was an intergenerational effect of trauma associated with scent. The researchers blew acetophenone – which has the scent of cherry blossom – through the cages of adult male mice, zapping their foot with an electric current at the same time. Over several repetitions, the mice associated the smell of cherry blossom with pain.
The idea that the effect of a traumatic experience might be passed from a parent to their offspring is still regarded as controversial by many
Shortly afterwards, these males bred with female mice. When their pups smelled the scent of cherry blossom, they became more jumpy and nervous than pups whose fathers hadn’t been conditioned to fear it. To rule out that the pups were somehow learning about the smell from their parents, they were raised by unrelated mice who had never smelt cherry blossom.
The grandpups of the traumatised males also showed heightened sensitivity to the scent. Neither of the generations showed a greater sensitivity to smells other than cherry blossom, indicating that the inheritance was specific to that scent.
This sensitivity to cherry blossom scent was linked back to epigenetic modifications in their sperm DNA. Chemical markers on their DNA were found on a gene encoding a smell receptor, expressed in the olfactory bulb between the nose and the brain, which is involved in sensing the cherry blossom scent. When the team dissected the pups’ brains they also found there was a greater number of the neurons that detect the cherry blossom scent, compared with control mice.
It is not that fear is being passed down the generations – it is that fear in one generation leads to sensitivity in the next
The second and third generation appeared to have not a fear of the scent itself, but a heightened sensitivity to it. The finding brings to light an often-missed subtlety of epigenetic inheritance – that the next generation doesn’t always show exactly the same trait that their parents developed. It is not that fear is being passed down the generations – it is that fear of a scent in one generation leads to sensitivity to the same scent in the next0 -
That's really interesting about the mice/cherry blossoms.
We live in a time where people are super jumpy in general, and I've come to believe that anxiety and fear/sensitivity are in part epigenetic traits. We are super jumpy because it's a superpower honed over thousands of years and with hundreds of thousands of experiences. Those who were successful in avoiding trouble were the ones passing on their genes, of course. :flowerforyou:2 -
OT but when we went to a “reunion” (aka a clan gathering)of our family name at the family castle in Scotland, we learned that many of our (husband’s) name ended up in Oklahoma, because of the Trail of Tears. They chose to go rather than abandon their families.
Husbands ancestors left later with their father, after their mother died, but the stepmother in OK was so awful, the chose-at a very young age- to come back and make it on their own.
Man, humans are awful. Period. We have this image of certain eras as all hunky dorey and our own as being the worst ever, but nah. People have sucked throughout the ages, and no amount of “Be Kind” tshirts is going to change that.
And btw, epigenetics? Reunions with utter strangers who happen to share the same name will convince you there’s instability, absolute lack of the most basic manners, and inherited stupidity in the family, lol. Just. Don’t. Do. It.3 -
And btw, epigenetics? Reunions with utter strangers who happen to share the same name will convince you there’s instability, absolute lack of the most basic manners, and inherited stupidity in the family, lol. Just. Don’t. Do. It
Amen.
I feel the same way about pretty much all people from my past who try to contact me through facebook or linkedin or a friend of a friend or invite me to reunions.
Nope and Nope.
I moved 3500 miles away for reasons. Didn't like you then, probably hasn't changed.
Get off my lawn.4
https://youtu.be/yYNjXRVFnTc?si=ZKk-6HXtCVM0yBAq
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