Carnivore Yes or No?

lukedavis19 · February 20

Good morning all,

So i have been a Yoyoer for many, many years and have tried every diet under the sun!

I have done plenty of research and cannot come up with a definitive answer on The Carnivore Diet. Everything I have learned screams no! But after 30days of actually following it, the results kind of speak for themselves. I guess I am just worried about any long term health ramifications.

tomcustombuilder · February 20

Some people have great luck with it. The bottom line with any diet is you need to take in fewer calories every week consistently than you burn if you want to lose fat, the carnivore diet is no different. It really comes down to eating in a way that you can stick to permanently. I know friends that love carnivore.

neanderthin · February 20

If what you mean by success is weight loss, then no, any diet can do that and a carnivore diet is, in that context, just another diet after all, and what drives weight loss is simply, a calorie deficit. But the no would therefore apply to every conceivable diet on the planet and where we have reduced everything down to the heat signature of a particular item in a bomb calorimeter, and using this to addressing the symptom of excess adipose or being fat is the primary focus but without addressing any reason why you need to actually lose weight.

I support a diet where whole foods dominate and a diet that is predominately based in animal products and at this time have been on a lower carb/ketogenic diet for over a dozen years after trying to figure out my own health over a few years and found that with the health issues I was having, that this way of eating solved pretty much every single concern, which is the main reason why people today have in their n:1 personal journey ended up trying carnivore and with great success.

Giving you my simple explanation in no way explains the hard sciences that are reflected in every single diet and looking there tells the story why people on the carnivore diet have good success with many of the problems associated with metabolic syndrome.

As far as ramifications for long term health, the jury is still out and always will be but not for just the carnivore diet but for every single diet on the planet. There is no current data regarding health "risks" that's reflected in a cause-and-effect relationship for any long term health or mortality for any diet. It's common to hear for example that the keto diet has no long term studies so be careful you might fall down and diet of a heart attach, that's the level of intelligence that dominates main steam media, and why it's imperative that people do their own research.

Maybe you could explain further what you mean by "the results speak for themselves".

AnnPT77 · February 20

If the carnivore diet suits a person, that's great. As with any rather specialized diet, there may be extra nutritional issues to consider, such as whether it's necessary to consume organ meat (offal), and if so, how much.

I'm not saying this applies to you, but it always concerns me when someone adopts an unusual eating style without informing themselves about nutritional issues that may be especially applicable to that style. I'm not picking on carnivore here, as I'd say the same about fully plant based eating, vegetarianism, etc.

Unfortunately, when a particular eating style has received significant popular-press attention, or extra attention in some large social sub-group, people sometimes adopt the style feeling it's the thing to do based on what they've heard/read . . . but they don't inform themselves of all the relevant implications.

Personally, I eat in very nearly the opposite of the carnivore style. I lost weight fine, my fitness level is higher than typical for my demographic, all my health markers are very good . . . and perhaps most important to me subjectively as an unapologetic hedonist, the carnivore style would very likely make me want to jump off a tall bridge into shallow water out of sheer misery. Therefore, I wouldn't consider it, unless utterly essential for reasons I can't currently imagine.

I'm sure those who enjoy and benefit from the carnivore style would feel the same way about eating the way I eat. Personalization of tactics, IMO, is key to success when it comes to eating style.

I have to say, I'm curious: If you're finding carnivore excellent for you, and are full speed ahead that way . . . why the poll? Why does it matter what other people think, or want to do themselves?

FWIW, I didn't vote, because none of your options apply to me. I think people can and should find their own best way, and ideally nail down any specialized nutritional issues that may be relevant to maintaining their good health.

neanderthin · February 21

Why on earth would anyone ever consider such a crazy restrictive diet. Well, that's a rabbit hole that for the people that actually benefit and have made that journey don't consider it to be restrictive and who for the most part actually embrace the simplicity and it's mostly because health trumps all other concerns.

It can and is in the beginning a transition where many health concerns are immediately recognized, within a day or two which is the main impetuous to continue but if a person has no immediate or obvious health and metabolic issues it's basically a no go simply because the justification has no teeth.

For the average person looking to just lose weight and all the others that have tried and failed in quick fashion, which is what actually happens most of the time, it makes their brains fall out wondering why people would even consider it. A diet like this will continue and for the most part aways be just a confusing, cryptic, perplexing or impossible diet to understand and believe it or not almost every person that are actually benefiting from the carnivore diet actually believed that as well which for many lengthened their time to engage from months to years, it's part of the rabbit hole.

AnnPT77 · February 21

I hope that wasn't a response to my post, because I didn't say it was "confusing, cryptic, perplexing or impossible to understand" diet, or a "crazy restrictive" diet. I don't even think that. The fact that I don't want to do it is not a criticism of the eating style for those whom it suits or benefits.

I simply don't understand why someone who is considering or practicing an eating style concerns themselves with whether or not other people like, support, or follow that style. Eating styles are not a popularity contest. That's extra true if someone's choosing to eat the way they do for health benefits they personally experience.

While I think my way of eating - which is not carnivore

- is also fine for those it suits or benefits, I don't think I've ever urged someone here to adopt it . . . in fact I know I've sometimes done the exact opposite. Routinely, I tell people eating in "my" style to pay attention to factors that might make it a little more complex to get overall good nutrition, though not prohibitively complex. That concept applies to other styles, not just "mine".

Admittedly, there are few ways of eating I'd argue with. During the "Freelee the Banana Girl" era, that was a fair example. In some cases less extreme, there can be legitimate debates from a research perspective, but I don't think that's the intent of this thread.

I do think part of the problem with rabbit holes is once deep into them, all a person sees are other rabbits, or maybe rabbits plus rabbit-predators. I don't think it's that binary.

neanderthin · February 21

No Ann, generally I like and agree your most of your advice, although I do find you try to appeal to the widest audience possible quite frequently. Your description of what a rabbit hole might consist of was, I thought quite interesting. But again no Ann your post didn't influence my post in the way you think it did, it's was for the probable defamatory diatribes that usually follow a thread like this, which is quite normal thus my descriptors for some people that may be confused, lol. I generally like to defend my beliefs and the shortcomings that come with that.

neanderthin · February 21

Also when you said you were an "unapologetic hedonist, the carnivore style would very likely make me want to jump off a tall bridge into shallow water out of sheer misery." I had to laugh to myself because I thought when I read that if I had to eat broccoli and soy for the rest of my life I'd rather poke my eye out with a sharp stick. Seriously Ann that made me laugh.

PAV8888 · February 21

I hope you both make it out intact neither flattened and tenderized nor sharply poked!🤣

robertw486 · February 21

Carnivore! No way

lukedavis19 wrote: »

Good morning all,

So i have been a Yoyoer for many, many years and have tried every diet under the sun!

I have done plenty of research and cannot come up with a definitive answer on The Carnivore Diet. Everything I have learned screams no! But after 30days of actually following it, the results kind of speak for themselves. I guess I am just worried about any long term health ramifications.

If everything you have learned screams "no", there is probably a reason for that.

The below video is from someone that literally wrote a book on carnivore, but he no longer follows that diet. It was posted in another thread by @watts6151

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzX_NS7EwF0

I think there are plenty of lower, lowish, and regular level diets with carbs that are the much better long term alternative. And if anyone does chose to start eating in a way that eliminates major food groups, I feel they should do enough research to address nutritional deficiencies, since most of those diets can expose them more rapidly.

neanderthin · February 21

Yes, Dr. Paul Saladino wrote a book called "The Carnivore Code: unlocking the secrets to optimal health by returning to an ancestral diet". After about 5 years and now living in Costa Rica he complained he was experiencing decreased testosterone levels, sleep issues, and joint and muscle pain, which led him to reconsider the diet and now he eats mostly fruit as carbs and around 300g's of it a day and he feels better. Now he promotes a diet that includes meat, organic if possible, fruit, honey, and raw dairy. It's not unusual for people to switch their diet if they're experiencing health issues, it's done all the time.

sollyn23l2 · February 21

robertw486 wrote: »

lukedavis19 wrote: »

Good morning all,

So i have been a Yoyoer for many, many years and have tried every diet under the sun!

I have done plenty of research and cannot come up with a definitive answer on The Carnivore Diet. Everything I have learned screams no! But after 30days of actually following it, the results kind of speak for themselves. I guess I am just worried about any long term health ramifications.

If everything you have learned screams "no", there is probably a reason for that.

The below video is from someone that literally wrote a book on carnivore, but he no longer follows that diet. It was posted in another thread by @watts6151

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzX_NS7EwF0

I think there are plenty of lower, lowish, and regular level diets with carbs that are the much better long term alternative. And if anyone does chose to start eating in a way that eliminates major food groups, I feel they should do enough research to address nutritional deficiencies, since most of those diets can expose them more rapidly.

I actually have a lot of respect for him for coming out and admitting this and acknowledging he was wrong about carnivore. He built his entire career around it, and took a big risk by doing that. Wish he would have come out a little sooner, but he did have that major book deal to think about, so I understand the spot he was in at the time.

neanderthin · February 22

Paul is well, a different personality when it comes to nutrition in the general sense and is well known among his peers. His commitment originally with carnivore was driven with the same enthusiasm as he shows today for adding fruit, honey and raw dairy back in, which is fine and most in the carnivore space really don't see's a problem with it, although he may say they do, some diets just don't work for some individuals, that's not disputed by most doctors or scientists.

Hardly anyone in the carnivore space is saying the carnivore diet is a pangea as a dietary intervention and actually say if a person is experience metabolic health issues that giving it a try for 60 days or so might be something to try and see what happens.

Everyone's basic physiology is slightly different and can be said falls along a continuum where people at one end of that spectrum are not effected by a specific metabolite to where a slight amount causes major health issues, gluten, histamines, fodmaps, lectins etc would be some of those examples.

If a person was to investigate some of his other video's and podcasts he also conducts his criticisms similarly towards grains for example and that's just one category, he has many, and scientifically justifies why they're not suitable for human health but more specifically why he would not consume them because of the effect it has on him personally. He goes into the same nutritional detail why grains are not suitable and why fruit is. His reasoning for adding honey was based mostly on his visit and stay with the Hadza tribe of Africa where for millennia they gathered and consumed honey. Interestingly enough the Hadza use a bird, and it's actually called the "Greater Honeyguide" to help them find the bee's that direct them to the hives. I've also used paleoanthropology as part of my "rabbit hole" academic journey in nutrition, which is another passion of mine.

Paul has come out and said that sugar or excess carbs don't cause insulin resistance or diabetes 2 and references a study to support that. Well, increased blood sugar where it progresses to diabetes is causes from the ingestion of consuming sugars and without sugar in the diet we have no diabetes 2, but that didn't stop him to prove it otherwise with a study. This is a major part of his reasoning for now consuming sugar because in his mind his research has given it a pass. Not that sugar is something to avoid, it just basic to the hard science of biochemistry that sugar does have an effect on blood sugar and the progression of disease mostly from inflammation from the overconsumption. Basically don't let a good story get in the way of a truth.

What makes science and more specifically nutritional science difficult and why we'll see a continuous flow of conflicting editorials everyday in all forms of media is the sheer volume of available studies and within those studies we can specifically find ones that would support any hypothesis or theory anyone could ever think of. Which is the basic conundrum.

A basic tenant for any good scientist is to challenge their hypothesis with vigor and commitment looking for evidence that contradicts their hypothesis, scientists minimize biases and ensure a more balanced and objective understanding of the subject and it's imperative for the tendency to "cherry pick" data that would support someones beliefs, because that is what it boils down to when that is done as opposed to truth, which is a vital cornerstone for continual scientific discovery.

If we judge his opinion as some kind of evidence that a particular diet, and in this case the carnivore diet is therefore invalid for human health based on this one video, then we would have to discount every dietary intervention that also has someone not thriving on another one. A vegan and to a lesser degree vegetarian diets are probably a good example where just a simple search will find dozens and more people letting everyone know they've also moved away from that diet, but generally it's a little more emphasized and not in a good way where the effects involve children and pets, crazy but true and for the most part when the verdict come out every year to pronounce what the best diets are they're generally near the top.

robertw486 · February 23

Carnivore! No way

sollyn23l2 wrote: »

robertw486 wrote: »

lukedavis19 wrote: »

Good morning all,

So i have been a Yoyoer for many, many years and have tried every diet under the sun!

I have done plenty of research and cannot come up with a definitive answer on The Carnivore Diet. Everything I have learned screams no! But after 30days of actually following it, the results kind of speak for themselves. I guess I am just worried about any long term health ramifications.

If everything you have learned screams "no", there is probably a reason for that.

The below video is from someone that literally wrote a book on carnivore, but he no longer follows that diet. It was posted in another thread by @watts6151

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzX_NS7EwF0

I think there are plenty of lower, lowish, and regular level diets with carbs that are the much better long term alternative. And if anyone does chose to start eating in a way that eliminates major food groups, I feel they should do enough research to address nutritional deficiencies, since most of those diets can expose them more rapidly.

I actually have a lot of respect for him for coming out and admitting this and acknowledging he was wrong about carnivore. He built his entire career around it, and took a big risk by doing that. Wish he would have come out a little sooner, but he did have that major book deal to think about, so I understand the spot he was in at the time.

I'll give him credit for admitting the truth about what carnivore did to him, but on the flip side it's just on to another miracle food that will end all of lifes problems. The pushes towards raw milk and other things not supported by any real science are IMHO just a push towards ignoring reality. Plenty of smoke and mirrors, twisting known evidence, and more clicks = more money since we know people these days will fall for just about anything.

In all fairness, anything related to the industry as a whole is often abused, but even more so by those that ignore all the science available to them.

sollyn23l2 · February 23

robertw486 wrote: »

sollyn23l2 wrote: »

robertw486 wrote: »

lukedavis19 wrote: »

Good morning all,

So i have been a Yoyoer for many, many years and have tried every diet under the sun!

I have done plenty of research and cannot come up with a definitive answer on The Carnivore Diet. Everything I have learned screams no! But after 30days of actually following it, the results kind of speak for themselves. I guess I am just worried about any long term health ramifications.

If everything you have learned screams "no", there is probably a reason for that.

The below video is from someone that literally wrote a book on carnivore, but he no longer follows that diet. It was posted in another thread by @watts6151

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzX_NS7EwF0

I think there are plenty of lower, lowish, and regular level diets with carbs that are the much better long term alternative. And if anyone does chose to start eating in a way that eliminates major food groups, I feel they should do enough research to address nutritional deficiencies, since most of those diets can expose them more rapidly.

I actually have a lot of respect for him for coming out and admitting this and acknowledging he was wrong about carnivore. He built his entire career around it, and took a big risk by doing that. Wish he would have come out a little sooner, but he did have that major book deal to think about, so I understand the spot he was in at the time.

I'll give him credit for admitting the truth about what carnivore did to him, but on the flip side it's just on to another miracle food that will end all of lifes problems. The pushes towards raw milk and other things not supported by any real science are IMHO just a push towards ignoring reality. Plenty of smoke and mirrors, twisting known evidence, and more clicks = more money since we know people these days will fall for just about anything.

In all fairness, anything related to the industry as a whole is often abused, but even more so by those that ignore all the science available to them.

Agreed wholeheartedly. I hate the advocating for raw milk. Most people don't understand how dangerous it is and how many people were dying from milk with dangerous bacteria growing in it before pasteurization became a thing.

robertw486 · February 23

Carnivore! No way

sollyn23l2 wrote: »

robertw486 wrote: »

sollyn23l2 wrote: »

robertw486 wrote: »

lukedavis19 wrote: »

Good morning all,

So i have been a Yoyoer for many, many years and have tried every diet under the sun!

I have done plenty of research and cannot come up with a definitive answer on The Carnivore Diet. Everything I have learned screams no! But after 30days of actually following it, the results kind of speak for themselves. I guess I am just worried about any long term health ramifications.

If everything you have learned screams "no", there is probably a reason for that.

The below video is from someone that literally wrote a book on carnivore, but he no longer follows that diet. It was posted in another thread by @watts6151

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzX_NS7EwF0

I think there are plenty of lower, lowish, and regular level diets with carbs that are the much better long term alternative. And if anyone does chose to start eating in a way that eliminates major food groups, I feel they should do enough research to address nutritional deficiencies, since most of those diets can expose them more rapidly.

I actually have a lot of respect for him for coming out and admitting this and acknowledging he was wrong about carnivore. He built his entire career around it, and took a big risk by doing that. Wish he would have come out a little sooner, but he did have that major book deal to think about, so I understand the spot he was in at the time.

I'll give him credit for admitting the truth about what carnivore did to him, but on the flip side it's just on to another miracle food that will end all of lifes problems. The pushes towards raw milk and other things not supported by any real science are IMHO just a push towards ignoring reality. Plenty of smoke and mirrors, twisting known evidence, and more clicks = more money since we know people these days will fall for just about anything.

In all fairness, anything related to the industry as a whole is often abused, but even more so by those that ignore all the science available to them.

Agreed wholeheartedly. I hate the advocating for raw milk. Most people don't understand how dangerous it is and how many people were dying from milk with dangerous bacteria growing in it before pasteurization became a thing.

Well we really can't expect much from a guy that denies a calorie deficit alone causes weight loss, can we?

From one of his videos.....

"Weight loss is NOT only about cutting calories…

If you truly want to thrive, make meat and organs the center of your diet. "

I can only guess if you want to thrive, and more importantly use that word often, then you must consume a more dangerous form of milk. And source your sea salt from the correct source. And eat almost nothing but meat, until you decide fruit and honey are great.

But then again, maybe I'm biased because I don't adapt an ancestral lifestyle.

neanderthin · February 23

robertw486 wrote: »

sollyn23l2 wrote: »

robertw486 wrote: »

sollyn23l2 wrote: »

robertw486 wrote: »

lukedavis19 wrote: »

Good morning all,

So i have been a Yoyoer for many, many years and have tried every diet under the sun!

I have done plenty of research and cannot come up with a definitive answer on The Carnivore Diet. Everything I have learned screams no! But after 30days of actually following it, the results kind of speak for themselves. I guess I am just worried about any long term health ramifications.

If everything you have learned screams "no", there is probably a reason for that.

The below video is from someone that literally wrote a book on carnivore, but he no longer follows that diet. It was posted in another thread by @watts6151

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzX_NS7EwF0

I think there are plenty of lower, lowish, and regular level diets with carbs that are the much better long term alternative. And if anyone does chose to start eating in a way that eliminates major food groups, I feel they should do enough research to address nutritional deficiencies, since most of those diets can expose them more rapidly.

I actually have a lot of respect for him for coming out and admitting this and acknowledging he was wrong about carnivore. He built his entire career around it, and took a big risk by doing that. Wish he would have come out a little sooner, but he did have that major book deal to think about, so I understand the spot he was in at the time.

I'll give him credit for admitting the truth about what carnivore did to him, but on the flip side it's just on to another miracle food that will end all of lifes problems. The pushes towards raw milk and other things not supported by any real science are IMHO just a push towards ignoring reality. Plenty of smoke and mirrors, twisting known evidence, and more clicks = more money since we know people these days will fall for just about anything.

In all fairness, anything related to the industry as a whole is often abused, but even more so by those that ignore all the science available to them.

Agreed wholeheartedly. I hate the advocating for raw milk. Most people don't understand how dangerous it is and how many people were dying from milk with dangerous bacteria growing in it before pasteurization became a thing.

Well we really can't expect much from a guy that denies a calorie deficit alone causes weight loss, can we?

From one of his videos.....

"Weight loss is NOT only about cutting calories…

If you truly want to thrive, make meat and organs the center of your diet. "

I can only guess if you want to thrive, and more importantly use that word often, then you must consume a more dangerous form of milk. And source your sea salt from the correct source. And eat almost nothing but meat, until you decide fruit and honey are great.

But then again, maybe I'm biased because I don't adapt an ancestral lifestyle.

Where do you think he got this idea? could it be in studies, maybe, have you tried to investigate why he said that or are you just discounting the notion because to you, it doesn't make sense? Curious.

Corina1143 · February 23

lukedavis19 wrote: »

Good morning all,

So i have been a Yoyoer for many, many years and have tried every diet under the sun!

I have done plenty of research and cannot come up with a definitive answer on The Carnivore Diet. Everything I have learned screams no! But after 30days of actually following it, the results kind of speak for themselves. I guess I am just worried about any long term health ramifications.

Did you ever stop to think that if you're not getting the desired results, maybe you should change your strategy. Let me say that again.
If trying every diet under the sun causes nothing but yoyo weight trends, trying another diet may cause just one more yoyo.
Is that your goal?
No?
Rethink your game plan.
How about starting just where you are. Then improve. Make a lifetime commitment.

neanderthin · February 23

Corina1143 wrote: »

lukedavis19 wrote: »

Good morning all,

So i have been a Yoyoer for many, many years and have tried every diet under the sun!

I have done plenty of research and cannot come up with a definitive answer on The Carnivore Diet. Everything I have learned screams no! But after 30days of actually following it, the results kind of speak for themselves. I guess I am just worried about any long term health ramifications.

Did you ever stop to think that if you're not getting the desired results, maybe you should change your strategy. Let me say that again.
If trying every diet under the sun causes nothing but yoyo weight trends, trying another diet may cause just one more yoyo.
Is that your goal?
No?
Rethink your game plan.
How about starting just where you are. Then improve. Make a lifetime commitment.

That's what he did Corina, he changed to the carnivore and he's seeing good results. His question like many that start the carnivore diet, they aren't quite sure about any longer term problems, which was his actual question.

Pretty much every person that are on the carnivore diet initially had a lot of reservations based on conventional ideals about nutrition in the general sense which actually delayed pretty much everybody to actually implement the diet, some took another year or longer before they ventured back thinking about it before they actually jumped on board. There's a lot of question about it, no doubt and that is his concern.

Who he's ended up hearing from aren't people on the carnivore diet giving their experience but people saying don't do it, it's not health etc. Who knows maybe people on the diet will end up here giving their experience.

sollyn23l2 · February 23

neanderthin wrote: »

Corina1143 wrote: »

lukedavis19 wrote: »

Good morning all,

So i have been a Yoyoer for many, many years and have tried every diet under the sun!

I have done plenty of research and cannot come up with a definitive answer on The Carnivore Diet. Everything I have learned screams no! But after 30days of actually following it, the results kind of speak for themselves. I guess I am just worried about any long term health ramifications.

Did you ever stop to think that if you're not getting the desired results, maybe you should change your strategy. Let me say that again.
If trying every diet under the sun causes nothing but yoyo weight trends, trying another diet may cause just one more yoyo.
Is that your goal?
No?
Rethink your game plan.
How about starting just where you are. Then improve. Make a lifetime commitment.

That's what he did Corina, he changed to the carnivore and he's seeing good results. His question like many that start the carnivore diet, they aren't quite sure about any longer term problems, which was his actual question.

Pretty much every person that are on the carnivore diet initially had a lot of reservations based on conventional ideals about nutrition in the general sense which actually delayed pretty much everybody to actually implement the diet, some took another year or longer before they ventured back thinking about it before they actually jumped on board. There's a lot of question about it, no doubt and that is his concern.

Who he's ended up hearing from aren't people on the carnivore diet giving their experience but people saying don't do it, it's not health etc. Who knows maybe people on the diet will end up here giving their experience.

He also never logged back in after posting his initial question, so I'm guessing he wasn't actually too concerned with what anyone else had to say.🤷‍♀️

Alatariel75 · February 23

Carnivore! No way

sollyn23l2 wrote: »

robertw486 wrote: »

sollyn23l2 wrote: »

robertw486 wrote: »

lukedavis19 wrote: »

Good morning all,

So i have been a Yoyoer for many, many years and have tried every diet under the sun!

I have done plenty of research and cannot come up with a definitive answer on The Carnivore Diet. Everything I have learned screams no! But after 30days of actually following it, the results kind of speak for themselves. I guess I am just worried about any long term health ramifications.

If everything you have learned screams "no", there is probably a reason for that.

The below video is from someone that literally wrote a book on carnivore, but he no longer follows that diet. It was posted in another thread by @watts6151

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzX_NS7EwF0

I think there are plenty of lower, lowish, and regular level diets with carbs that are the much better long term alternative. And if anyone does chose to start eating in a way that eliminates major food groups, I feel they should do enough research to address nutritional deficiencies, since most of those diets can expose them more rapidly.

I actually have a lot of respect for him for coming out and admitting this and acknowledging he was wrong about carnivore. He built his entire career around it, and took a big risk by doing that. Wish he would have come out a little sooner, but he did have that major book deal to think about, so I understand the spot he was in at the time.

I'll give him credit for admitting the truth about what carnivore did to him, but on the flip side it's just on to another miracle food that will end all of lifes problems. The pushes towards raw milk and other things not supported by any real science are IMHO just a push towards ignoring reality. Plenty of smoke and mirrors, twisting known evidence, and more clicks = more money since we know people these days will fall for just about anything.

In all fairness, anything related to the industry as a whole is often abused, but even more so by those that ignore all the science available to them.

Agreed wholeheartedly. I hate the advocating for raw milk. Most people don't understand how dangerous it is and how many people were dying from milk with dangerous bacteria growing in it before pasteurization became a thing.

The only thing more facepalm worthy than the people schilling raw milk are the people schilling raw milk but making it safe by boiling it for a few minutes! FACEPALM.

neanderthin · February 23

Alatariel75 wrote: »

sollyn23l2 wrote: »

robertw486 wrote: »

sollyn23l2 wrote: »

robertw486 wrote: »

lukedavis19 wrote: »

Good morning all,

So i have been a Yoyoer for many, many years and have tried every diet under the sun!

I have done plenty of research and cannot come up with a definitive answer on The Carnivore Diet. Everything I have learned screams no! But after 30days of actually following it, the results kind of speak for themselves. I guess I am just worried about any long term health ramifications.

If everything you have learned screams "no", there is probably a reason for that.

The below video is from someone that literally wrote a book on carnivore, but he no longer follows that diet. It was posted in another thread by @watts6151

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzX_NS7EwF0

I think there are plenty of lower, lowish, and regular level diets with carbs that are the much better long term alternative. And if anyone does chose to start eating in a way that eliminates major food groups, I feel they should do enough research to address nutritional deficiencies, since most of those diets can expose them more rapidly.

I actually have a lot of respect for him for coming out and admitting this and acknowledging he was wrong about carnivore. He built his entire career around it, and took a big risk by doing that. Wish he would have come out a little sooner, but he did have that major book deal to think about, so I understand the spot he was in at the time.

I'll give him credit for admitting the truth about what carnivore did to him, but on the flip side it's just on to another miracle food that will end all of lifes problems. The pushes towards raw milk and other things not supported by any real science are IMHO just a push towards ignoring reality. Plenty of smoke and mirrors, twisting known evidence, and more clicks = more money since we know people these days will fall for just about anything.

In all fairness, anything related to the industry as a whole is often abused, but even more so by those that ignore all the science available to them.

Agreed wholeheartedly. I hate the advocating for raw milk. Most people don't understand how dangerous it is and how many people were dying from milk with dangerous bacteria growing in it before pasteurization became a thing.

The only thing more facepalm worthy than the people schilling raw milk are the people schilling raw milk but making it safe by boiling it for a few minutes! FACEPALM.

I don't drink milk but use cream and yogurt, both pasteurized but pretty much all my cheese from France and Italy are made with raw milk.

sollyn23l2 · February 23

Alatariel75 wrote: »

sollyn23l2 wrote: »

robertw486 wrote: »

sollyn23l2 wrote: »

robertw486 wrote: »

lukedavis19 wrote: »

Good morning all,

So i have been a Yoyoer for many, many years and have tried every diet under the sun!

I have done plenty of research and cannot come up with a definitive answer on The Carnivore Diet. Everything I have learned screams no! But after 30days of actually following it, the results kind of speak for themselves. I guess I am just worried about any long term health ramifications.

If everything you have learned screams "no", there is probably a reason for that.

The below video is from someone that literally wrote a book on carnivore, but he no longer follows that diet. It was posted in another thread by @watts6151

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzX_NS7EwF0

I think there are plenty of lower, lowish, and regular level diets with carbs that are the much better long term alternative. And if anyone does chose to start eating in a way that eliminates major food groups, I feel they should do enough research to address nutritional deficiencies, since most of those diets can expose them more rapidly.

I actually have a lot of respect for him for coming out and admitting this and acknowledging he was wrong about carnivore. He built his entire career around it, and took a big risk by doing that. Wish he would have come out a little sooner, but he did have that major book deal to think about, so I understand the spot he was in at the time.

I'll give him credit for admitting the truth about what carnivore did to him, but on the flip side it's just on to another miracle food that will end all of lifes problems. The pushes towards raw milk and other things not supported by any real science are IMHO just a push towards ignoring reality. Plenty of smoke and mirrors, twisting known evidence, and more clicks = more money since we know people these days will fall for just about anything.

In all fairness, anything related to the industry as a whole is often abused, but even more so by those that ignore all the science available to them.

Agreed wholeheartedly. I hate the advocating for raw milk. Most people don't understand how dangerous it is and how many people were dying from milk with dangerous bacteria growing in it before pasteurization became a thing.

The only thing more facepalm worthy than the people schilling raw milk are the people schilling raw milk but making it safe by boiling it for a few minutes! FACEPALM.

🤣😂 oh good lord, is that really a thing now?

Alatariel75 · February 23

Carnivore! No way

sollyn23l2 wrote: »

Alatariel75 wrote: »

sollyn23l2 wrote: »

robertw486 wrote: »

sollyn23l2 wrote: »

robertw486 wrote: »

lukedavis19 wrote: »

Good morning all,

So i have been a Yoyoer for many, many years and have tried every diet under the sun!

I have done plenty of research and cannot come up with a definitive answer on The Carnivore Diet. Everything I have learned screams no! But after 30days of actually following it, the results kind of speak for themselves. I guess I am just worried about any long term health ramifications.

If everything you have learned screams "no", there is probably a reason for that.

The below video is from someone that literally wrote a book on carnivore, but he no longer follows that diet. It was posted in another thread by @watts6151

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzX_NS7EwF0

I think there are plenty of lower, lowish, and regular level diets with carbs that are the much better long term alternative. And if anyone does chose to start eating in a way that eliminates major food groups, I feel they should do enough research to address nutritional deficiencies, since most of those diets can expose them more rapidly.

I actually have a lot of respect for him for coming out and admitting this and acknowledging he was wrong about carnivore. He built his entire career around it, and took a big risk by doing that. Wish he would have come out a little sooner, but he did have that major book deal to think about, so I understand the spot he was in at the time.

I'll give him credit for admitting the truth about what carnivore did to him, but on the flip side it's just on to another miracle food that will end all of lifes problems. The pushes towards raw milk and other things not supported by any real science are IMHO just a push towards ignoring reality. Plenty of smoke and mirrors, twisting known evidence, and more clicks = more money since we know people these days will fall for just about anything.

In all fairness, anything related to the industry as a whole is often abused, but even more so by those that ignore all the science available to them.

Agreed wholeheartedly. I hate the advocating for raw milk. Most people don't understand how dangerous it is and how many people were dying from milk with dangerous bacteria growing in it before pasteurization became a thing.

The only thing more facepalm worthy than the people schilling raw milk are the people schilling raw milk but making it safe by boiling it for a few minutes! FACEPALM.

🤣😂 oh good lord, is that really a thing now?

Sadly, yes. It just goes to show how ignorant they really are. Ironically, boiling it actually destroys a lot of the goodness, whereas pasturising (which is gently heating to a point nowhere near boiling) keeps that goodness intact. Their "fix" is not just beyond what pasturising does, it actually makes the milk even less good for them.

neanderthin wrote: »

I don't drink milk but use cream and yogurt, both pasteurized but pretty much all my cheese from France and Italy are made with raw milk.

Raw milk cheese is a totally different beast, the ageing process and the salt takes care of the bacteria for the large part so it's much safer.

PAV8888 · February 23

So one has to conclude that either all carnivore people don't have a weight problem that makes them use MFP, or that there's not that many of them in general reducing the chances of finding one on a forum, or that the occasional carnivore on MFP is either selling or experimenting.

The thing about experimenting is that a lot of times things go wonderfully well until the house of cards collapses.

So I don't know. When do you consider someone as having something worthwhile to say about something related to ways of eating and their observations thereof?

I recon I want to see at least two years (secretly I will tell you the number is five years) before I consider a way of eating related experiment to be valid and out of the experimental honeymoon.

That's me. I've seen too many cabbage soups, eggs, Atkins's, paleos, carnivores, gluten sensitivities affecting vast swathes of the population, pregnancy injections, Twinkies and McDonald's diets even.

Anything and everything will work. For a while. Homeopathic medicine works too. And so do placebo pills.

So somewhere in there you have to decide where the meat and potatoes of the issue is located. Where the bang for your buck is sitting.

If you maintain your weight eating 2000Cal on average and on average you eat 2250, you will gain and if on average you eat 1750 you will lose. And I mean long term average. The number that is made neither by your intentions nor your "goals" nor by your best nor by your worst days. It's the number your body registered regardless of what you thought you were doing

And you will do so eating cabbage soup, or cabbage soup with beef and potatoes thrown in or just hunks of meat that were grass fed or extracted from the center of a McDonald's sandwich and run through the faucet to get rid of the condiments and attachments!

The problem with most people who are looking for a new way of eating that will miraculously control their weight is that they're seeking an externally imposed rule set that by miracle will lead them to the promised land.

Instead of developing their own trade offs and gaining an understanding of themselves and observing how they react to a box of cookies vs a grilled steak. And making a conscious choice.

So yeah. I'll take cabbage soup with beef and potatoes and keep on going and will keep reminding people that miracle weight loss methods aren't.

What is a miracle is if and when one decides that taking care of themselves is worth the time and effort invested.

On a calorie counting site, a place where you account for energy flows, I find it interesting that there is so much resistance in actually performing the experiment to the best of one's ability. And benefiting from the insights it can offer when one reviews their logs.

neanderthin · February 23

Alatariel75 wrote: »

sollyn23l2 wrote: »

Alatariel75 wrote: »

sollyn23l2 wrote: »

robertw486 wrote: »

sollyn23l2 wrote: »

robertw486 wrote: »

lukedavis19 wrote: »

Good morning all,

So i have been a Yoyoer for many, many years and have tried every diet under the sun!

I have done plenty of research and cannot come up with a definitive answer on The Carnivore Diet. Everything I have learned screams no! But after 30days of actually following it, the results kind of speak for themselves. I guess I am just worried about any long term health ramifications.

If everything you have learned screams "no", there is probably a reason for that.

The below video is from someone that literally wrote a book on carnivore, but he no longer follows that diet. It was posted in another thread by @watts6151

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzX_NS7EwF0

I think there are plenty of lower, lowish, and regular level diets with carbs that are the much better long term alternative. And if anyone does chose to start eating in a way that eliminates major food groups, I feel they should do enough research to address nutritional deficiencies, since most of those diets can expose them more rapidly.

I actually have a lot of respect for him for coming out and admitting this and acknowledging he was wrong about carnivore. He built his entire career around it, and took a big risk by doing that. Wish he would have come out a little sooner, but he did have that major book deal to think about, so I understand the spot he was in at the time.

I'll give him credit for admitting the truth about what carnivore did to him, but on the flip side it's just on to another miracle food that will end all of lifes problems. The pushes towards raw milk and other things not supported by any real science are IMHO just a push towards ignoring reality. Plenty of smoke and mirrors, twisting known evidence, and more clicks = more money since we know people these days will fall for just about anything.

In all fairness, anything related to the industry as a whole is often abused, but even more so by those that ignore all the science available to them.

Agreed wholeheartedly. I hate the advocating for raw milk. Most people don't understand how dangerous it is and how many people were dying from milk with dangerous bacteria growing in it before pasteurization became a thing.

The only thing more facepalm worthy than the people schilling raw milk are the people schilling raw milk but making it safe by boiling it for a few minutes! FACEPALM.

🤣😂 oh good lord, is that really a thing now?

Sadly, yes. It just goes to show how ignorant they really are. Ironically, boiling it actually destroys a lot of the goodness, whereas pasturising (which is gently heating to a point nowhere near boiling) keeps that goodness intact. Their "fix" is not just beyond what pasturising does, it actually makes the milk even less good for them.

neanderthin wrote: »

I don't drink milk but use cream and yogurt, both pasteurized but pretty much all my cheese from France and Italy are made with raw milk.

Raw milk cheese is a totally different beast, the ageing process and the salt takes care of the bacteria for the large part so it's much safer.

Yep, most of it but the Canadian Gov't still has warnings for eating raw milk cheeses and says they present a higher risk of foodborne illness compared to pasteurized milk cheeses, and it's for the usual suspects, pregnant women, children, older people and people with weakened immune systems.

Alatariel75 · February 23

Carnivore! No way

neanderthin wrote: »

Alatariel75 wrote: »

sollyn23l2 wrote: »

Alatariel75 wrote: »

sollyn23l2 wrote: »

robertw486 wrote: »

sollyn23l2 wrote: »

robertw486 wrote: »

lukedavis19 wrote: »

Good morning all,

So i have been a Yoyoer for many, many years and have tried every diet under the sun!

I have done plenty of research and cannot come up with a definitive answer on The Carnivore Diet. Everything I have learned screams no! But after 30days of actually following it, the results kind of speak for themselves. I guess I am just worried about any long term health ramifications.

If everything you have learned screams "no", there is probably a reason for that.

The below video is from someone that literally wrote a book on carnivore, but he no longer follows that diet. It was posted in another thread by @watts6151

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzX_NS7EwF0

I think there are plenty of lower, lowish, and regular level diets with carbs that are the much better long term alternative. And if anyone does chose to start eating in a way that eliminates major food groups, I feel they should do enough research to address nutritional deficiencies, since most of those diets can expose them more rapidly.

I actually have a lot of respect for him for coming out and admitting this and acknowledging he was wrong about carnivore. He built his entire career around it, and took a big risk by doing that. Wish he would have come out a little sooner, but he did have that major book deal to think about, so I understand the spot he was in at the time.

I'll give him credit for admitting the truth about what carnivore did to him, but on the flip side it's just on to another miracle food that will end all of lifes problems. The pushes towards raw milk and other things not supported by any real science are IMHO just a push towards ignoring reality. Plenty of smoke and mirrors, twisting known evidence, and more clicks = more money since we know people these days will fall for just about anything.

In all fairness, anything related to the industry as a whole is often abused, but even more so by those that ignore all the science available to them.

Agreed wholeheartedly. I hate the advocating for raw milk. Most people don't understand how dangerous it is and how many people were dying from milk with dangerous bacteria growing in it before pasteurization became a thing.

The only thing more facepalm worthy than the people schilling raw milk are the people schilling raw milk but making it safe by boiling it for a few minutes! FACEPALM.

🤣😂 oh good lord, is that really a thing now?

Sadly, yes. It just goes to show how ignorant they really are. Ironically, boiling it actually destroys a lot of the goodness, whereas pasturising (which is gently heating to a point nowhere near boiling) keeps that goodness intact. Their "fix" is not just beyond what pasturising does, it actually makes the milk even less good for them.

neanderthin wrote: »

I don't drink milk but use cream and yogurt, both pasteurized but pretty much all my cheese from France and Italy are made with raw milk.

Raw milk cheese is a totally different beast, the ageing process and the salt takes care of the bacteria for the large part so it's much safer.

Yep, most of it but the Canadian Gov't still has warnings for eating raw milk cheeses and says they present a higher risk of foodborne illness compared to pasteurized milk cheeses, and it's for the usual suspects, pregnant women, children, older people and people with weakened immune systems.

Oh, absolutely, it's not as safe as pasturised, but it's not as stupidly dangerous as raw milk, either.

neanderthin · February 23

@PAV888.

What you say makes sense and it's an integral part of the skepticism and we can throw keto into that mix as well. Why would someone decide to do something this drastic and remove all the foods that aren't animal based.

The vast majority, almost all the people actually that eventually decided to try carnivore, it wasn't for weight loss specifically, although excess weight was one of their concerns and for a few their weight created other health implications that for them were much more serious, but sure most had a weight problem, but many didn't.

As far as not seeing many on MFP is mostly based in the algorithms generated by the people interested in carnivore, MFP isn't going to come up very much or at all.

Anyway, there are some people with health issues that go back to childhood and some very sick people that are basically living in total misery and have been all their lives, on medication and told, that's their life and to get use to it. Some of their stories are absolutely tragic.

At some point they believe that doing something is better than doing nothing, so they begin the journey of investigating their individual issues, applying those remedies and most of these people have multiple health concerns and that journey begins. All sorts of algorithms send them all over the place and when it comes to diet and early in their journey the usual suspects come up, the Med diet, vegetarian and vegan diet and they all counted calories at one point or another, being so fundamental to weight loss. One of the symptoms that is universal for all of these people and most people that have health issues are based in inflammation and as soon as you finally end up researching inflammation, low carb comes up, and that's basically the impetuous that eventually leads them to keto and carnivore.

Pretty much every single person that eventually tried carnivore went through a period of time, some longer than a year thinking originally that these people were bat crazy and didn't make any sense at all, this is absolutely a common theme among carnivores.

If you want to listen to some of these people's stories and journey's, which people should if they want to understand why they may be right or wrong, sometimes there's a world unfolding around us that we're just not aware of.

Anyway there's a guy Dave Mac that has a you tube site called "no carb life" who tells his story of why he started carnivore and has been carnivore for 7 years and invites people from around the world to tell their story. He's interviewed over a thousand people on you tube and basically keeps his mouth shut and allows the people to just talk about their health. He starts by asking 'how did you find carnivore" then shuts up. Probably a very good idea to also look at the comment section, that generally tells a lot.

https://youtube.com/@zerocarb

This will be difficult for many people because it introduces information that goes directly against their beliefs and ideology, it sorta starts by saying why would I even bother, they're all nuts. I know this happens because early on in my own journey trying to understand the basics of nutritional science 15 years ago I would believe through investigation that some of that information to be fundamental for a particular belief for a particular subject and time spend as well, some of this investigation took a long time, sometimes years, lets call it a breakthrough moment when I say, yeah ok, got it, I understand perfectly. Then over the course I would come across a study that would totally contradict what I believed to be true with concrete data and for a while I would totally ignore it convincing myself it was inconsequential, until I kept seeing similar literature, so now I take nothing for granted and expect and hope to see conflicting data because it shortens the journey and it keeps me sane as well.

Carnivore Yes or No?

Carnivore Yes or No? 9 votes

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