FAO people who think we shouldn't eat grains
fteale
Posts: 5,310 Member
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inb4 low carb talibans0
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I'm not a member of the "low carb taliban" but did they compare diets that included grains with those that didn't, or did they compare diets that included more whole grains with those that included less/no whole grains (but didn't include refined flours)?0
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"for every 10g a day increase in fibre intake, there was a 10% drop in the risk of bowel cancer."I'm not a member of the "low carb taliban" but did they compare diets that included grains with those that didn't, or did they compare diets that included more whole grains with those that included less/no whole grains (but didn't include refined flours)?0 -
I'm not a member of the "low carb taliban" but did they compare diets that included grains with those that didn't, or did they compare diets that included more whole grains with those that included less/no whole grains (but didn't include refined flours)?
If I'm reading it correctly, the study was one that looked at 25 previous pubmed studies and drew conclusions based on those, so in that regard I think it would be difficult to answer the above (unless of course you want to dig into those 25 studies).0 -
But that says nothing about whether there were subjects who were not eating any grains (whole or refined).
"for every 10g a day increase in fibre intake, there was a 10% drop in the risk of bowel cancer."I'm not a member of the "low carb taliban" but did they compare diets that included grains with those that didn't, or did they compare diets that included more whole grains with those that included less/no whole grains (but didn't include refined flours)?0 -
Grains killed my dog0
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Yes, fiber intake and bowel cancer is fairly well-researched. As to whether there is a difference between whole grains vs. refined ones, I'm not sure that had anything to do with these studies on fiber, but there may be studies elsewhere.
I'm a big carb eater. I eat a lot of grains, vegetables, and fruit. But you can get a ton of fiber from just vegetables and fruit. It's not just grains that have a lot of fiber.0 -
Here is some research one whole grains vs. refined grains and cancer risk, which is more of an argument for the original post:
http://tinyurl.com/7zovskw0 -
My point was that the OP said that this study is for "people who think we shouldn't eat grains" and those people who don't think grains are beneficial (or perhaps even deleterious) to human health generally think that we should avoid grains period (whole and refined).Yes, fiber intake and bowel cancer is fairly well-researched. As to whether there is a difference between whole grains vs. refined ones, I'm not sure that had anything to do with these studies on fiber, but there may be studies elsewhere.
However, most studies that promote the benefits of grains are comparing whole grains with refined grains (which the meta-analysis in question seems to have done as well since whole grains have higher fiber than refined). This is not a study saying that eating grains is better than eating NO grains, which is what the title of the thread suggests.
If we actually wanted to know whether eating any grains was better or worse than eating no grains we would need to look at people who eat no grains versus those who eat some grains. As far as I can tell, the meta-study in question did not ask that question or make that comparison.0 -
My point was that the OP said that this study is for "people who think we shouldn't eat grains" and those people who don't think grains are beneficial (or perhaps even deleterious) to human health generally think that we should avoid grains period (whole and refined). However, most studies that promote the benefits of grains are comparing whole grains with refined grains (which the meta-analysis in question seems to have done as well since whole grains have higher fiber than refined). This is not a study saying that eating grains is better than eating NO grains, which is what the title of the thread suggests.Yes, fiber intake and bowel cancer is fairly well-researched. As to whether there is a difference between whole grains vs. refined ones, I'm not sure that had anything to do with these studies on fiber, but there may be studies elsewhere.
Agreed, which is why I made the second post.
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I'm not arguing with studies that say whole grains > refined grains.
My point was that the OP said that this study is for "people who think we shouldn't eat grains" and those people who don't think grains are beneficial (or perhaps even deleterious) to human health generally think that we should avoid grains period (whole and refined). However, most studies that promote the benefits of grains are comparing whole grains with refined grains (which the meta-analysis in question seems to have done as well since whole grains have higher fiber than refined). This is not a study saying that eating grains is better than eating NO grains, which is what the title of the thread suggests.Yes, fiber intake and bowel cancer is fairly well-researched. As to whether there is a difference between whole grains vs. refined ones, I'm not sure that had anything to do with these studies on fiber, but there may be studies elsewhere.
Agreed, which is why I made the second post.0 -
I think what people eat should be common sense and everyone is different and knows what affects them. Some people feel sick and do better without grains (I have met them), lose weight and have more energy. I am not going to judge them. I personally eat grains, but I did lose a lot of weight when I stopped eating grains for a while. However, it was a very hard diet for me to personally stick to (too hard). You can get fiber without eating grains. I tend to think that if paleolithic man could get by without grain, we can too.
But to each his own. If you feel physically okay eating them, then no problem. If you feel sluggish or have brain fog there could be a medical reason for it (allergy or sensitivity). Grains tend to be hard for a lot of people with digestive disorders like Celiac's.0 -
this was their conclusionConclusion A high intake of dietary fibre, in particular cereal fibre and whole grains, was associated with a reduced risk of colorectal cancer. Further studies should report more detailed results, including those for subtypes of fibre and be stratified by other risk factors to rule out residual confounding. Further assessment of the impact of measurement errors on the risk estimates is also warranted.
http://www.bmj.com/content/343/bmj.d66170 -
Yes, kaitlinj. The 'study" isn't comparing people who eat grains versus those that don't, and even in both groups people can eat junk food which will also affect the results (other conditions will also mess up the results, like how much sleep and stress are in the life of the individuals being studied, whether they have a chronic physical, medical condition, whether they have any sbstance abuse problems, including smoking, or whether they are taking any long term prescription meds and what the side effects of those meds are). I tend to find that the rawer the food is, the healthier it is as far as my body reacts (I get a cleansing reaction at first as my body detoxifies, but that's because my diet has been pretty bad until recently, and still I tend to crave garbage) but I feel healthiest when i eat seaweed salad, raw fish (sashimi), raw fruits and vegetables and nuts. I do eat cooked foods of course (I eat junk food still) but for me, personally, my body seems to respond very well to raw food.
My main issue is that the raw food that tends to make me feel the best is very expensive and doesn't give me the number of calories I need a day for the price.
Grains don't seem to cause me any real problem. My sister can't eat them, she feels very sick.0 -
Indeed. That was my point.Yes, kaitlinj. The 'study" isn't comparing people who eat grains versus those that don't,
Agreed. It is worth noting that in the meta-study in question here, in half of the studies looking at whole grains specifically, adjustments were not made for smoking or alcohol use.and even in both groups people can eat junk food which will also affect the results (other conditions will also mess up the results, like how much sleep and stress are in the life of the individuals being studied, whether they have a chronic physical, medical condition, whether they have any sbstance abuse problems, including smoking, or whether they are taking any long term prescription meds and what the side effects of those meds are).0 -
"for every 10g a day increase in fibre intake, there was a 10% drop in the risk of bowel cancer."I'm not a member of the "low carb taliban" but did they compare diets that included grains with those that didn't, or did they compare diets that included more whole grains with those that included less/no whole grains (but didn't include refined flours)?
brb, eating 100g of fibre for cancer immunity.0 -
grains killed my dog, then stole my wife and sold her as a sex slave in Russia.Grains killed my dog0 -
It doesn't really matter if the results are comparing whole grains to refined or not. It's solely looking at fibre, and the findings show that for every 10g of fibre increase in the diet there is a 10% drop in the risk of bowel cancer AND that fibre from fruit and vegetable sources don't have as much of an effect on that as grain sources.0
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But isn't that because when you increase fiber in grain sources you are likely replacing refined grains with whole grains?AND that fibre from fruit and vegetable sources don't have as much of an effect on that as grain sources.0 -
Isn't that a country song?
grains killed my dog, then stole my wife and sold her as a sex slave in Russia.Grains killed my dog0 -
Isn't that a country song?
grains killed my dog, then stole my wife and sold her as a sex slave in Russia.Grains killed my dog
Blues0 -
However, most studies that promote the benefits of grains are comparing whole grains with refined grains (which the meta-analysis in question seems to have done as well since whole grains have higher fiber than refined). This is not a study saying that eating grains is better than eating NO grains, which is what the title of the thread suggests.
If we actually wanted to know whether eating any grains was better or worse than eating no grains we would need to look at people who eat no grains versus those who eat some grains. As far as I can tell, the meta-study in question did not ask that question or make that comparison.
The article did say that people who got their fibre from fruit and vegetables only did not have the same reduction in bowel cancer risk. I assume people not eating grains that are eating fibre are getting it from fruit and veg? The difference is likely because soluble fibre is not found in fruit and vegetables. It is important to note that while I have not looked at each of the studies in depth, I am reluctant to think that they would be controlled trials (but rather some type of observational study). This is probably the best you are going to get on this topic however because since there is such strong research suggesting the health benefits of grains it would be very difficult to get a grain-free diet passed through an ethics committee for a controlled trial. (Whereas for an observational trial, the person chooses what they eat and you just analyse then group participants based on what they already eat rather than telling them what to eat - therefore you haven't done anything wrong if they cause harm to their health by not eating grains).0 -
If we actually wanted to know whether eating any grains was better or worse than eating no grains we would need to look at people who eat no grains versus those who eat some grains. As far as I can tell, the meta-study in question did not ask that question or make that comparison.
Exactly. I didn't look at the study either but I would imagine many of those studies didn't make adjustment for lifestyle. For example comparing a Mediterranean diet to the Standard North American Diet.
Looking at 2 controlled diets, both with whole grain, one having less would be interesting on markers for health, say one with 60% from overall carbs vs 40%. Also comparing a Mediterranean Diet to a Paleo Diet would probably tell a better story.0 -
The article did say that people who got their fibre from fruit and vegetables only did not have the same reduction in bowel cancer risk. I assume people not eating grains that are eating fibre are getting it from fruit and veg? The difference is likely because soluble fibre is not found in fruit and vegetables.
Lots of fruit/vegs have soluble fiber. Maybe you were confusing soluble with INsoluble? Whole grains have lots of insoluble fiber, which has a different function from soluble fiber.
Soluble fiber sources::
Brussels sprouts = 3g
carrots = 1 g
broccoli = 1 g
apples = 1 g
pears = 2g
grapefruit = 2g
orange = 2 g
prunes = 1.5 g (1/4 cup)
black beans = 2 g
lima beans = 3.5 g
barley = 1g
oats = 1g
Source: Magic Foods For Better Blood Sugar, Readers Digest Assc 20090 -
Yep, sorry I meant insoluble fibre. Dietitian typing fail!!0
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Oops0
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Hi
this is some pretty good information
but
its comparing eating whole grains to refined grains
not whole grains to eating no grains.
so lets say hypothetically, if it was grains that caused the cancer in the first place, (and i do mean if. its a big if i have no proof of the if). then this study would be similar to comparing filtered cigarettes to unfiltered cigarettes.
also its a 20% reduction in the risk
the risk is 6.9% for men and 5.4% for women
so 6.9/100 = 0.069 x 20 = 1.38
and 5.4/100 = 0.054 x 20 = 1.08
that's a reduction of to 5.52% for men and 4.32% for women.
so for every 100 people that eat whole grains as apposed to refined grains, one less person (roughly) will get bowel cancer.0 -
Hi
this is some pretty good information
but
its comparing eating whole grains to refined grains
not whole grains to eating no grains.
so lets say hypothetically, if it was grains that caused the cancer in the first place, (and i do mean if. its a big if i have no proof of the if). then this study would be similar to comparing filtered cigarettes to unfiltered cigarettes.
also its a 20% reduction in the risk
the risk is 6.9% for men and 5.4% for women
so 6.9/100 = 0.069 x 20 = 1.38
and 5.4/100 = 0.054 x 20 = 1.08
that's a reduction of to 5.52% for men and 4.32% for women.
so for every 100 people that eat whole grains as apposed to refined grains, one less person (roughly) will get bowel cancer.
No, it isn't. It is comparing low fibre to high fibre. Not refined vs non-refined grains.0 -
How does one look at high fiber and low fiber in grains without, incidentally, looking at whole vs. refined grains?Hi
this is some pretty good information
but
its comparing eating whole grains to refined grains
not whole grains to eating no grains.
so lets say hypothetically, if it was grains that caused the cancer in the first place, (and i do mean if. its a big if i have no proof of the if). then this study would be similar to comparing filtered cigarettes to unfiltered cigarettes.
also its a 20% reduction in the risk
the risk is 6.9% for men and 5.4% for women
so 6.9/100 = 0.069 x 20 = 1.38
and 5.4/100 = 0.054 x 20 = 1.08
that's a reduction of to 5.52% for men and 4.32% for women.
so for every 100 people that eat whole grains as apposed to refined grains, one less person (roughly) will get bowel cancer.
No, it isn't. It is comparing low fibre to high fibre. Not refined vs non-refined grains.
No one is saying that was the research question of the study. What we are saying is that when you say "these people ate lot of grain fiber" what you are probably saying is "these people ate more non-refined grains." And when you say "these people ate very little grain fiber" what you are probably saying is "these people ate very little non-refined grains, and, as such, probably ate more refined grains (assuming a study done in a population eating a modern Western diet)."0 -
sorry your quite correct
the study is comparingate fibre from whole grains. to those who ate fibre from other sources?
but all the participants in all of the studys they looked at ate grains ?
is this not the same thing?
am i being a dumbass here? please feel free to point out if i am lol i wont take it personally0
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