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Weight training + marathon + calorie deficit = ?

BerryH
BerryH Posts: 4,698 Member
edited October 2024 in Fitness and Exercise
Originally posted in the New Rules Of Lifting For Women (NROLFW) group, I'd much appreciate the opinions of a wider audience on my current training dilemma, please!

It used to be so simple. Once upon a time, if you wanted to run, you ran. If you wanted muscle, you lifted. More recently, mixing it up seemed to be the healthy approach.

In the last decade or so, runners have been told to incorporate lifting into their routines to prevent injury, improve body composition, straighten posture and avoid the spindly look that often seems to be the curse of distance runners. With a place in a spring marathon, I dutifully I sought to incorporate a weight lifting routine into my programme and selected NROLFW having read so many success stories here on MFP.

However, I was rather shocked to find Lou Schuler expressly says that NROLFW and marathon training are incompatible - he says you can't train your body to lift heavy and run a marathon at the same time. In fact, reading more widely, he doesn't think much of running at all, with a variety of articles saying you're more likely to put on weight than lose it, and you're inevitably setting yourself up for injury or even death! Here's a couple of examples:
http://www.louschuler.com/blog/dead-man-running/
http://www.louschuler.com/blog/running-for-weight-loss-does-it-ever-work/

What to do? Finishing the marathon with a smile on my face in 5.5 to 6 hours (yes, I'm that slow) is my main goal at the moment. Ideally I want to do this injury-free, and lifting was part of my plan for this - three sessions each of lifting and running a week. I've been feeling good on the first couple of weeks doing this.

I'm also looking to lose weight to get down to my "fighting weight" a good few months before the marathon, so I'm eating at a deficit, but in deference to NROLFW, it's a minimal one - just 250 calories or to lose 0.5 pounds a week by MFP's calculations.

Your thoughts and advice would be much appreciated!

Replies

  • therealangd
    therealangd Posts: 1,861 Member
    He sounds like a judgmental, jealous buffoon, that gets his jollies from fear mongering about a sport he self proclaims, he knows nothing about.
  • maemiller
    maemiller Posts: 439 Member
    Thats is so BS. There are so many articles in Runnersworld magazine and Active.com that talks about the importance of strength training and how it helps minimize muscle injury
  • LorinaLynn
    LorinaLynn Posts: 13,247 Member
    This part here?
    I may have gotten some insight into this on Sunday. My wife recently had abdominal surgery, so I’ve been gardening for two. That is, I’ve been doing all her girly digging and planting along with my manly lawn mowing. And it’s killing me. It’s way more exercise than I’m used to, using different muscles and movement patterns. I’m sore and exhausted.

    But I should at least be getting leaner with all the extra activity. Right? I’m doing this in addition to my normal gym training, so I should be dropping pounds and getting all ripply.

    Not even close. I’ve gained several pounds, all in the middle.

    That is exactly the problem I have - have always had - with a lot of exercise routines. It makes you LOOK fit, but my definition of being healthy and strong means that what I'm doing is something that helps me in "real life." I can't imagine some body building guy getting sore and exhausted from gardening. Even when I wasn't in shape, gardening never hurt. I don't think I was even all that sore after building a retaining wall and paver patio, except for the blisters on my hands because I was too dumb to wear gloves.

    I exercise so I can do all kinds of crazy things without hurting myself, not so I can... do other exercises.
  • Rae6503
    Rae6503 Posts: 6,294 Member
    I definitely think they are compatible. I don't think you'll see big improvements in strength or muscle size while running and eating at a calorie deficit but that doesn't mean you should lift. I don't know that NROWLFW is the best program for you if you aren't really focused on the weights, maybe just stay in stage 1 forever (I love stage one anyway and will probably stay there longer than I'm supposed to). And yeah, if you need to lose weight for your marathon, go ahead with a bigger deficit for a while.
  • Elzecat
    Elzecat Posts: 2,916 Member
    While I've heard good things about that book, it's about weight lifting, not about running + weight lifting...if it's working for you (the strength training routines) during your marathon training, do what works for YOU, not what some guy in a book says...he may be an expert on weightlifting, but if he says he knows nothing about running...then I would look for someone who does know something about running. I can tell you from personal experience that adding strength training to my running program has helped me gain fitness and feel stronger. I started after my first half marathon so I won't know until next spring (2nd half marathon) if it really helps my running goals), but I speak regularly with the "boot camp" instructor who works at my local running store and he incorporates running drills into his bootcamp routines. He also focuses quite heavily on dietary changes. I also agree with whoever said to check out runnersworld.com, there is quite a bit of information there about how to incorporate strength training in your program.
  • koosdel
    koosdel Posts: 3,317 Member
    I believe long distance running and weight lifting is compatible. My poblem, though, is its difficult to sustain the diet required for that much energy expenditure.

    There are better books than New Rules.
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 49,174 Member
    Originally posted in the New Rules Of Lifting For Women (NROLFW) group, I'd much appreciate the opinions of a wider audience on my current training dilemma, please!

    It used to be so simple. Once upon a time, if you wanted to run, you ran. If you wanted muscle, you lifted. More recently, mixing it up seemed to be the healthy approach.

    In the last decade or so, runners have been told to incorporate lifting into their routines to prevent injury, improve body composition, straighten posture and avoid the spindly look that often seems to be the curse of distance runners. With a place in a spring marathon, I dutifully I sought to incorporate a weight lifting routine into my programme and selected NROLFW having read so many success stories here on MFP.

    However, I was rather shocked to find Lou Schuler expressly says that NROLFW and marathon training are incompatible - he says you can't train your body to lift heavy and run a marathon at the same time. In fact, reading more widely, he doesn't think much of running at all, with a variety of articles saying you're more likely to put on weight than lose it, and you're inevitably setting yourself up for injury or even death! Here's a couple of examples:
    http://www.louschuler.com/blog/dead-man-running/
    http://www.louschuler.com/blog/running-for-weight-loss-does-it-ever-work/

    What to do? Finishing the marathon with a smile on my face in 5.5 to 6 hours (yes, I'm that slow) is my main goal at the moment. Ideally I want to do this injury-free, and lifting was part of my plan for this - three sessions each of lifting and running a week. I've been feeling good on the first couple of weeks doing this.

    I'm also looking to lose weight to get down to my "fighting weight" a good few months before the marathon, so I'm eating at a deficit, but in deference to NROLFW, it's a minimal one - just 250 calories or to lose 0.5 pounds a week by MFP's calculations.

    Your thoughts and advice would be much appreciated!
    If you stay in positive nitrogen balance, train heavy and hard and stay in calorie deficit, I think you would be fine. Long distance running is catabolic to muscle so it is important to stay in positive nitrogen balance so it doesn't happen. You do this by eating enough sufficient and complete proteins.









    A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
  • BerryH
    BerryH Posts: 4,698 Member
    Thanks everyone, great information from the MFP mythbusters! I have to say there's a few things I disagree with in that book. There's not even a single mention of stretching, for example. Even if he doesn't think you should, you'd think he'd have mentioned it. Like the whole cardio dissing.
  • FunRun08
    FunRun08 Posts: 203 Member
    This is all just my opinion based on my personal experiance....

    I have been running for 2 years and lifting weights and strength training for the last year and a half. I have noticed nothing but improvement from the strength training. It has made me faster and stronger. I can feel the difference going up hills having a strong upper body to help me push. Its kind of funny I was looking for a training program to follow for my half marathon and I found one by Jeff Galoway that I liked because I can only run 3-4 days a week. However he said there is no benefit from cross training, it made me wonder if I could respect a program when I disagree so strongly.
  • Dragonfly1996
    Dragonfly1996 Posts: 196 Member
    BH- have just read in Decembers issue of Womens Fitness - quote "strength training raises your metabolism & shapes & tones your muscles, creating muscle density. This helps to boost endurance in your runs, lower your injury risk & help you burn fat...."

    Actually does make sense - unlike a lot of things you can read about. I also think it has helped my running.

    Hope that helps a little. :flowerforyou:
  • myofibril
    myofibril Posts: 4,500 Member
    I don't think they are incompatible so much as they are difficult to balance effectively. If you try to achieve too many goals at the same time there is a sacrifice you have to make and you will you dilute your results in each area. Jack of all trades but master of none.

    Your body has a finite capacity to deal with stressors imposed on it. Marathon training is a stressor, so is weight training so is a calorie deficit. Put them all together and you can easily outstrip your recovery capacity leading to poor results, frustration and increased injury potential.

    Personally, I think it is more efficient overall to decide on your main goal and work specifically towards that. That specialisation will cause you to achieve that goal sooner which will lead to a time saving in the long term. It takes hard work to trigger adaptations but once they have been achieved they take far less effort to maintain allowing to devote time to other areas.
  • Ilovedrinkingtea
    Ilovedrinkingtea Posts: 597 Member
    I think you need a good mix of different exercises for running. Myself for example, I ran my fastest 5km race ever this year, by doing practically no running at all. I did spinning, boxing, pilates, circuits, weights and just about everything else instead, and I did gym classes 5 days a week, about once or twice a day. I think I did only 2 or 3 runs before the race and that was at below tempo speed, so like 10km an hour or so.

    I would say do a mix of everything and be careful not to do too much running, and that's the way to success. My mate did too much running pre-marathon, and over trained so much she fractured her pelvis, true story.

    Keep us posted on how the training goes, and good luck!!!

    xx
  • Jeff92se
    Jeff92se Posts: 3,369 Member
    I think we all need the definition of "incompatible". For elite atheletes?? They probably have to tailor their workouts carefully. For the rest of us? I think both can be done to a pretty high level before there's any training combatiblity problems
  • stingrayinfl
    stingrayinfl Posts: 284 Member
    A thousand different people will tell you a thousand different things. . I run and I lift, if it causes death, so be it. I enjoy the running and use the weight lifting to help my running.
  • FoxyMcDeadlift
    FoxyMcDeadlift Posts: 771 Member
    Well, I've run two half marathons, and am about to start training for a full marathon soon. I also lift heavy 4 times a week and the last six months of doing this has been pretty good for me. I wouldnt stay in a defecit though, try to eat at least maintenance and enjoy eating whatever you want on your long run days. Cassein/Milk/Oat and Peanut butter shakes are your friend OP
  • ebaymommy
    ebaymommy Posts: 1,067 Member
    I've run 4 marathons and here is my experience.

    1st marathon...just wanted to finish. Weighed about 136lbs, just followed a running only training program. Finished the run in 4 hours 34 minutes. Very proud of my accomplishment.

    Marathon #2, put on a couple pounds (probably weighed 140), didn't train too hard, also running only. Went out too fast (my own dumb fault) felt like dying at the end, finished in 4 hrs 50 min.

    Marathon #3, I decided if I'm going to continue to torture myself I'm going to buckle down and see what I can accomplish. Did some serious dieting pre-marathon training (so 9-10 months before the marathon), got down to 125lbs. Followed a less intense (running days per week) training program and implemented several days of weight training per week during marathon training. Ran the race in 4 hrs, 16 minutes, set a PR and had a fantastic run.

    Marathon #4, I followed Hal Higdon's 30 week Personal Best marathon training program and kept weight training several times per week (usually on the lowest mileage running days or I chopped out a running day that was low mileage sometimes, too. Dropped my weight down to 119. Ran in 4 hours and 5 minutes. Pretty sure I could have gone sub-4 but I again went out too fast, too early and burned out at the end.

    I will never just run to train for a marathon again. I found too many benefits to incorporating strength training. However, I will note that during the marathon training program there were usually a couple weeks where the mileage was the highest that I backed off of weight training simply because I was too tired.
  • BerryH
    BerryH Posts: 4,698 Member
    Wow, I'm constantly amazed by the sage advice and information on MFP. Thanks you all so much. I'd much rather take the advice of someone with experience of lifting and running rather than a stated hatred of running!

    Last night I was very tired and wasn't feeling motivated enough to do a weights workout on my own so I did Body Pump (for the first time in about 15 years!), which must be good for endurance as well.

    I tried a free sample of a protein shake for the first time afterwards. It may be a coincidence, but despite the fact my muscles were shaking after many of the exercises and I couldn't squeeze out one more rep, I slept like a baby and woke up with no aches and pains!

    I took a break from running with plantar fasciitis and started back just twice a week. I've now upped it to three times a week with new shoes and gel insoles and feel good.

    I'm thinking of sticking with three times a week through my training - from experiences, four times a week leads to injury for me. I also need to shed more weight - at 170 I'm hitting the ground with some serious force. Mind you I got round (albeit VERY slowly and painfully!) at 190 a couple of year ago!
  • stingrayinfl
    stingrayinfl Posts: 284 Member
    Berry H, the protien shakes are very good to help you recover after your long runs. I have had rough bouts with plantar fasclitis and gels and a couple of shots helped. Hope the ebst for you. Weight lifting does help, as well as cross training. I usually do lift musch the week of a half, marathon or any important race ten miles or more. You go girl.
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