How does the Paleo diet work?
Replies
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lol and a bit more
as to the
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I only took exception to the post
"all diets work the same way, calorie restriction" "
We are talking a paleo diet here. Why it works is not just a question of weight, but a question of health. Personally I want to eat more primitively but I will go to a time when we were making cheese as I happily am evolved to produce lactase
How paleo works is by not eating processed foods, trying to eat as many organic, grown in soil that isn't stripped of nutrients (you can't get some nutrients in the plant if they weren't in the soil) zero empty carbs etc. This is how it works. Many people have felt healthier, some people run marathons and do other highly physical things on paleo diets. It works for them. While its not my thing, I do think eating less processed foods and empty calories is a likely a good thing and makes sense scientifically. To me it has nothing to do with carrying a spear, around here hunters carry bows
or guns and none wear loin clothes. But one doesnt' need to wear traditional puritanical period clothing to enjoy a thanksgiving dinner. 0 -
And you don't get the last one? What about it don't you get? Taubes blames insulin for everything, and his underlying understanding of insulin is inaccurate.
Can you point to a single claim of his that is "backed by science" as you say?
Please re read my post. I said I didn't get to it. If you have such issues reading what I say perhaps that is part of the problem?
Also please re read my posts and see that I clearly posted numerous times that I do not believe all that he has written particularly what you are trying to disprove. Its hard to argue science with someone who has issues reading my posts. Are they that poorly written?
As for providing links... sure. If I post them do you have access through a library or school to get them?
for ones that I think anyone can read
http://annals.ba0.biz/content/140/10/769.short
here you go a recent one by John Hopkins medicine
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/media/releases/low_carb_higher_fat_diets_add_no_arterial_health_risks_to_obese_people_seeking_to_lose_weight
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa022207
As to the idea he cherry picks, sure he does and that annoys me. However the 'other side' cherry picks even worse. As in bad like we learnt about bad in bioethics courses. Just because his moments of bad science aren't as bad as the other sides bad science doesn't make his ok. But it still doesn't make the other side 'right'.
Edited to fix formating0 -
I'm not on paleo and certainly do not plan to cut down my grain intake anytime soon since I have like 5lbs of oatmeal left.
Anyway, just a quick question.
Where do you get your calcium from if dairy is not allowed? I hate taking calcium pills. It makes me feel like a sick person when I am not. So I started taking cheese, yogurt, and lately even milk.
Let me know. I'm intrigued.0 -
Who invited the BB.com miscers? Seriously, you guys are so full of yourselves. I can talk insulin until your fingers bleed and I don't have to look up PubMed articles to know what I'm talking about anymore.0
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I know you can get some calcium from plants. But when asking where did primitive people who did not have dairy animals get their calcium I was told that soups and stews made by boiling bones (particularly if the broth was a bit acidic) as well as eating small bones of birds and fish.0
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I know you can get some calcium from plants. But when asking where did primitive people who did not have dairy animals get their calcium I was told that soups and stews made by boiling bones (particularly if the broth was a bit acidic) as well as eating small bones of birds and fish.
:sick:
I just eat some dairy. Doesn't take long to get your RDA of calcium.0 -
I eat dairy too (OMG cheese! lol) But that was a question I had long wondered so went looking for the answer. The Native cultures around here never had dairy before we came a long.. so what did they do?
(oh and what are BB.com miscers? I am new here)0 -
I eat dairy too (OMG cheese! lol) But that was a question I had long wondered so went looking for the answer. The Native cultures around here never had dairy before we came a long.. so what did they do?
(oh and what are BB.com miscers? I am new here)
Haha, they are from another website. But I can tell by their attitudes and memes where they come from. I used to post there until the broscience ran rampant and those posters with real educations were silenced by the louder ones with possibly larger muscles and egos.
Anyway....certain regions have evolved to keep the lactase enzyme around longer (mostly Western Europeans) while others (like Asians) are predominantly lactose-intolerant. At some people many, many years ago people domesticated milk-producing animals and started taking in dairy. Not during the 'caveman' era, but still early enough in evolution to cause this dichotomy. So I say some natural cheese and milk doesn't hurt, because I don't want to boil bones.0 -
And you don't get the last one? What about it don't you get? Taubes blames insulin for everything, and his underlying understanding of insulin is inaccurate.
Can you point to a single claim of his that is "backed by science" as you say?
Please re read my post. I said I didn't get to it. If you have such issues reading what I say perhaps that is part of the problem?
My bad, haven't had my coffee yet.Also please re read my posts and see that I clearly posted numerous times that I do not believe all that he has written particularly what you are trying to disprove. Its hard to argue science with someone who has issues reading my posts. Are they that poorly written?
Then let's be clear on what he's written that you DO believe.As for providing links... sure. If I post them do you have access through a library or school to get them?
for ones that I think anyone can read
http://annals.ba0.biz/content/140/10/769.short
Short term, not calorically matched, and supplements were given to the low-carb group but not the low fat group. Why?here you go a recent one by John Hopkins medicine
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/media/releases/low_carb_higher_fat_diets_add_no_arterial_health_risks_to_obese_people_seeking_to_lose_weight
Not seeing how this one is at all relevant to the conversation. I don't recall anyone here claiming that low carb was unhealthy.
This is a good one, since it's one of the few long term studies out there. Pay special attention to the conclusions.
"The low-carbohydrate diet produced a greater weight loss (absolute difference, approximately 4 percent) than did the conventional diet for the first six months, but the differences were not significant at one year."As to the idea he cherry picks, sure he does and that annoys me. However the 'other side' cherry picks even worse. As in bad like we learnt about bad in bioethics courses. Just because his moments of bad science aren't as bad as the other sides bad science doesn't make his ok. But it still doesn't make the other side 'right'.
Edited to fix formating
What "other side"? His cherry picking and misrepresenting his sources is enough to invalidate is conclusions. Period.0 -
Who invited the BB.com miscers? Seriously, you guys are so full of yourselves. I can talk insulin until your fingers bleed and I don't have to look up PubMed articles to know what I'm talking about anymore.
Ok then, what do you think causes metabolic dysregulation? I'd love to hear your expert opinion since you're so great at critical reviews of these articles.0 -
Who invited the BB.com miscers? Seriously, you guys are so full of yourselves. I can talk insulin until your fingers bleed and I don't have to look up PubMed articles to know what I'm talking about anymore.
Ok then, what do you think causes metabolic dysregulation? I'd love to hear your expert opinion since you're so great at critical reviews of these articles.
Let me guess: EBIL CARBZES/???0 -
I will get back to this.. but I have to get back to doing some real science for my thesis today or my supervisor will be most displeased with me tomorrow. But I do want to just mention this
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What "other side"? His cherry picking and misrepresenting his sources is enough to invalidate is conclusions. Period. "
If this is so then you should not believe that fats have anything to do with heart disease.
No cherry picking should ONLY invalidate the studies that involve them. If a scientist cherry picks a bit in one study but not in others does not make the others bad science.
As to what I do believe. That low carb works for some people, where as simple calorie restriction may not. (and does it matter how people get there in the end, as long as people get there? ALso low fat makes me feel deprived and hungry, low carb does not. So you also have the issue with sustainability) I believe more research needs to be done. I believe we do not have all the answers, that the science is muddy enough that that there are NO clear answers. However there is enough evidence that hormones DO affect weight loss/gain so should not be dismissed out of hand.
You see to believe (correct me if I am wrong) that you know all the answers, that things are black and white. I am simply positing the idea that low carb/paleo type diets work because there is more going on than simple calories in vs calories out. All you have done is try to tell me I am wrong with out trying to explain the confounding factors that must be there if you are right.0 -
Who invited the BB.com miscers? Seriously, you guys are so full of yourselves. I can talk insulin until your fingers bleed and I don't have to look up PubMed articles to know what I'm talking about anymore.
Ok then, what do you think causes metabolic dysregulation? I'd love to hear your expert opinion since you're so great at critical reviews of these articles.
Let me guess: EBIL CARBZES/???
LOL, no. I never said I was anti-carb. In fact, I stated (I think in another thread) that a normal-carb and low-carb diet do not differ significantly in weight loss at the end of 6-12 months. I like this WOE because fat and protein stimulate PYY and secretin and CCK which all lead to appetite suppression and slowed digestion, respectively. Plus fiber, namely the resistant starch we see in veggies, is excellent for promoting the health of good bacteria in the gut and reducing gut permeability. So I stay full which makes it easier to maintain my deficit for fat loss, and I tend to eat more veggies because meat on its own is boring.
Also, I may only be a few months shy of 25, but I am halfway through my PhD. Don't get me wrong, I don't know everything about the human body, but I know a **** TON about metabolic dysregulation. I have been fortunate enough to run my OWN research projects.0 -
All this argument is getting old. if you want to see if Paleo/Primal works for you, try it for 30 days. The results will speak for themselves.
I started to eat Primally in order to lose weight, and after about 3 days, I didn't care if I never lost another pound! My energy has increased to levels I have never experienced. I have cut my prescription meds in half (antidepressants, metformin) and am well on my way to eliminating them entirely. I am hardly ever hungry, yet have tons of energy. I sleep better. I no longer have patches of dry skin. My hair is thicker and shinier. I could go on. I have lost 34 pounds, which is fantastic, but the true benefit is discovering that life does not have to be a daily slog of exhaustion, constant hunger, and brain fog. I truly never knew it was possible to feel so great, and I wouldn't go back to the Standard American Diet if you paid me.
For lots of great info, check out Mark's Daily Apple-- www.marksdailyapple.com There are tons of articles, and the user forums are also useful.0 -
All this argument is getting old. if you want to see if Paleo/Primal works for you, try it for 30 days. The results will speak for themselves.
I started to eat Primally in order to lose weight, and after about 3 days, I didn't care if I never lost another pound! My energy has increased to levels I have never experienced. I have cut my prescription meds in half (antidepressants, metformin) and am well on my way to eliminating them entirely. I am hardly ever hungry, yet have tons of energy. I sleep better. I no longer have patches of dry skin. My hair is thicker and shinier. I could go on. I have lost 34 pounds, which is fantastic, but the true benefit is discovering that life does not have to be a daily slog of exhaustion, constant hunger, and brain fog. I truly never knew it was possible to feel so great, and I wouldn't go back to the Standard American Diet if you paid me.
For lots of great info, check out Mark's Daily Apple-- www.marksdailyapple.com There are tons of articles, and the user forums are also useful.
Sounds like you were in serious need of some dietary fat! So great that you were able to make such big changes. I have noticed that I never get painfully hungry anymore, which is saying a lot, because going 6 hours without food (can't eat in the lab) used to be so unpleasant.0 -
I will get back to this.. but I have to get back to doing some real science for my thesis today or my supervisor will be most displeased with me tomorrow. But I do want to just mention this
"
What "other side"? His cherry picking and misrepresenting his sources is enough to invalidate is conclusions. Period. "
If this is so then you should not believe that fats have anything to do with heart disease.
No cherry picking should ONLY invalidate the studies that involve them. If a scientist cherry picks a bit in one study but not in others does not make the others bad science.
This is not what I'm referring to at all. Taubes consistently references outdated studies which support his claims while ignoring more current data that refutes it. Furthermore, he misrepresents and misenterprets his sources on a regular basis. In fact there have been sources of his who have come out and said so.As to what I do believe. That low carb works for some people, where as simple calorie restriction may not. (and does it matter how people get there in the end, as long as people get there? ALso low fat makes me feel deprived and hungry, low carb does not. So you also have the issue with sustainability) I believe more research needs to be done. I believe we do not have all the answers, that the science is muddy enough that that there are NO clear answers. However there is enough evidence that hormones DO affect weight loss/gain so should not be dismissed out of hand.
You see to believe (correct me if I am wrong) that you know all the answers, that things are black and white. I am simply positing the idea that low carb/paleo type diets work because there is more going on than simple calories in vs calories out. All you have done is try to tell me I am wrong with out trying to explain the confounding factors that must be there if you are right.
Except that there is no evidence to back the claim that the underlying method behind fat loss is anything other than a caloric deficit. Hormonal changes do have some effect, but this plays into the "calories out" side of the equation. Low carb/paleo diets work for people that respond well to low carbs, not by hormonal changes but because they contain foods that are satiating. There is no strong evidence to believe otherwise.0 -
Except that there is no evidence to back the claim that the underlying method behind fat loss is anything other than a caloric deficit. Hormonal changes do have some effect, but this plays into the "calories out" side of the equation. Low carb/paleo diets work for people that respond well to low carbs, not by hormonal changes but because they contain foods that are satiating. There is no strong evidence to believe otherwise.
Apparently I'm being ignored.
Everyone will lose weight quickly on a low-carb diet. Anyone who depletes their glycogen stores and enters ketosis will lose glycogen and water weight and be in a constant state of water-loss to make lots of urea and filter lots of ketones. They work the same way for everyone. You would experience appetite suppression as well. Compared to a normal-carbohdyrate diet, you would probably not lose any more body fat on a keto-type diet. Higher carbohydrate diets have been shown to decrease LDL cholesterol, while higher-fat diets have been shown to increase HDL cholesterol. Both good things. Hormone levels ARE different, however. I'm sure it won't matter if I go into that because no one is talking to me anymore. :laugh:0 -
All this argument is getting old. if you want to see if Paleo/Primal works for you, try it for 30 days. The results will speak for themselves.
I started to eat Primally in order to lose weight, and after about 3 days, I didn't care if I never lost another pound! My energy has increased to levels I have never experienced. I have cut my prescription meds in half (antidepressants, metformin) and am well on my way to eliminating them entirely. I am hardly ever hungry, yet have tons of energy. I sleep better. I no longer have patches of dry skin. My hair is thicker and shinier. I could go on. I have lost 34 pounds, which is fantastic, but the true benefit is discovering that life does not have to be a daily slog of exhaustion, constant hunger, and brain fog. I truly never knew it was possible to feel so great, and I wouldn't go back to the Standard American Diet if you paid me.
For lots of great info, check out Mark's Daily Apple-- www.marksdailyapple.com There are tons of articles, and the user forums are also useful.
Sounds like you were in serious need of some dietary fat! So great that you were able to make such big changes. I have noticed that I never get painfully hungry anymore, which is saying a lot, because going 6 hours without food (can't eat in the lab) used to be so unpleasant.
Yes, I certainly was! I had spent years eating "right" (whole grain, lean protein, fruit and veg) and gained and gained and gained while feeling like complete crap. Getting rid of the grain and increasing fat proved to be what my body needed.
Isn't it great to not be hungry all the time? I would not have been able to function in your lab-- would have been a dizzy, shaking mess due to blood sugar issues! I love being able to just eat when I am hungry and forget about food the rest of the time. And I *love* food, lol!0 -
Except that there is no evidence to back the claim that the underlying method behind fat loss is anything other than a caloric deficit. Hormonal changes do have some effect, but this plays into the "calories out" side of the equation. Low carb/paleo diets work for people that respond well to low carbs, not by hormonal changes but because they contain foods that are satiating. There is no strong evidence to believe otherwise.
Apparently I'm being ignored.
Everyone will lose weight quickly on a low-carb diet. Anyone who depletes their glycogen stores and enters ketosis will lose glycogen and water weight and be in a constant state of water-loss to make lots of urea and filter lots of ketones. They work the same way for everyone. You would experience appetite suppression as well. Compared to a normal-carbohdyrate diet, you would probably not lose any more body fat on a keto-type diet. Higher carbohydrate diets have been shown to decrease LDL cholesterol, while higher-fat diets have been shown to increase HDL cholesterol. Both good things. Hormone levels ARE different, however. I'm sure it won't matter if I go into that because no one is talking to me anymore. :laugh:
Nobody said that hormone levels weren't different, just that they do not make a significant difference in fat loss given an isocaloric diet.0 -
Wow, acg67! Now we know how you got that body! You really know your stuff!
I haven't researched the paleo diet, as I am cutting calories and exercising, while cutting down on carbs and eating more protein to lose weight, which is sort of the idea behind losing weight I thought, but is paleo kind of like atkins? You know, cut carbs and eat mostly protein?
If I have completely lost sight of this whole conversation, please ignore me. I have mommy brain, and at times it gets a bit fuzzy and I say stupid things.:grumble:
Okay, I just went back and found your post that explained what the diet is about. This thread is way too far out of my league, so im going to bow out now!0 -
Except that there is no evidence to back the claim that the underlying method behind fat loss is anything other than a caloric deficit. Hormonal changes do have some effect, but this plays into the "calories out" side of the equation. Low carb/paleo diets work for people that respond well to low carbs, not by hormonal changes but because they contain foods that are satiating. There is no strong evidence to believe otherwise.
Apparently I'm being ignored.
Everyone will lose weight quickly on a low-carb diet. Anyone who depletes their glycogen stores and enters ketosis will lose glycogen and water weight and be in a constant state of water-loss to make lots of urea and filter lots of ketones. They work the same way for everyone. You would experience appetite suppression as well. Compared to a normal-carbohdyrate diet, you would probably not lose any more body fat on a keto-type diet. Higher carbohydrate diets have been shown to decrease LDL cholesterol, while higher-fat diets have been shown to increase HDL cholesterol. Both good things. Hormone levels ARE different, however. I'm sure it won't matter if I go into that because no one is talking to me anymore. :laugh:
Nobody said that hormone levels weren't different, just that they do not make a significant difference in fat loss given an isocaloric diet.
What hormones are you thinking of?0 -
I think we should all be happy with the decision someone has made that works for them. I am a firm believer that knocking someone down when they are happy with themselves takes them to a questioning world in thier mind which sabatoges any success they have made for themselves. Dun....your doing fabulous. Keep up the good work girl!b I myself have been doing MFP and restricting calories and working out like a crazy woman and have lost hardly nothing. But i have lost more weight in the past by restricing my carbs.0
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I only took exception to the post
"all diets work the same way, calorie restriction" "
so what diet works by eating in a surplus? consciously or unconsciously all diets work in the same manner.0 -
Wow, this thread made me dizzy! I was hoping to get a more specific explanation about this diet, but songbyrdsweet showed that my current diet (normal carbohydrate, border-line low-carbohydrate) will work just about the same as the Paleo diet. Since I have no idea what in the world ketosis is, I'm going to stick to my healthy diet of eating primarily complex carbs, lean protein, and mostly non-animal sources of fat (I have to control cholesterol intake) in about a 45/35/15 ratio respectively. I used to go strictly 50/30/20, but my body tends to want more protein and for some reason, I never have any problem getting enough of it in my diet. Getting enough fat is my biggest challenge. Thanks for a busy thread, keep the debate war going!0
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Where is it writen that Paleo has to be low carb? As long as the carbs came from the ground/trees without processing (like bread/flour) they're fine. In fact my carb intake went UP when I went full fledged Paleo for a few months. I'd still be Paleo but I'm maintaining now and don't need really want to lose any more fat (below 20%) and I was getting too muscular for my liking. Now I'm Paleo during the week and PIggy during the weekend.0
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Just to clarify a few things about Paleo.
1) It aims for a higher intake of omega 3 via grass fed meats, fish, whole eggs etc.
2) the Primal variant of Paleo allows for diary consumption provided you tolerate it
3) it encourages the consumption of loads of vegetables
4) encourages reduction of stress, lots of exercise while avoiding over training
5) there are low fat and high fat versions
6) is predicated on eating what we "evolved to eat" prior to the adoption of agriculture
Much of the ancestral health movement uses the "Paleo" concept as a framework or a starting point for determining a healthy way to eat and lose weight. It is only a starting point though. There are the fringe extremists as always but many of the proponents are rational and attempt to base their claims on published research. Check out Robb Wolf, or the site thedailylipid.com for some interesting reading.
You'll find plenty of RDs who will support Paleo provided it's the low saturated fat version. Personally I think there is little wrong with the diet and it does allow a fair amount of variability.
There is much debate about what a Paleo Diet actually is since it's likely the diet would have varied depending on the local flora and fauna, never the less it didn't consist of twinkles, donuts and coke. Generally Paleo diets are lower carb but they are not zero carb and are not ketogenic. There are some modern hunter gather groups that eat very high carb but it's rare, this combined with the likely availability of foods to pre-agricultural humans is the basis for the macro nutrient ratios recommended by most Paleo diets.
This is a bit of a rambling explanation of Paleo/Primal but it's actually quite a large topic. Search Loren Cordain or Robb Wolf for plenty more information.0 -
I have lost more weight simply by cutting carbs (I am not advocating this for everyone, just if you are having an improper hormonal response, which according to my Dr can be genetic) in less than a month than I did in months or running and calorie restriction. Though once I drop a bit more I want to get back to running.
In case you weren't aware, carbs hold water so cutting carbs cuts how much water you hold as well. That's why "weight loss" is a silly goal compared to actual body fat percentages.0 -
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I only took exception to the post
"all diets work the same way, calorie restriction" "
so what diet works by eating in a surplus? consciously or unconsciously all diets work in the same manner.
I can't believe how many people are going crazy over that comment.
Calorie restriction works regardless of diet. No magical diet is going to make you lose weight while eating a calorie surplus. It's not that hard to figure out people.0 -
I hate my internet and double posts!0
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Where is it writen that Paleo has to be low carb? As long as the carbs came from the ground/trees without processing (like bread/flour) they're fine. In fact my carb intake went UP when I went full fledged Paleo for a few months. I'd still be Paleo but I'm maintaining now and don't need really want to lose any more fat (below 20%) and I was getting too muscular for my liking. Now I'm Paleo during the week and PIggy during the weekend.
It's generally lower carb by proxy when you remove cultivated grains and limit dairy. That pretty much leaves tubors and fruit. I eat plenty of nuts and berries and veggies, but I tend to fall around 15% carbohydrates naturally. Anything below 40-50% carbohydrate is considered 'low' by dietary standards.0
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