Runners World advice to overweight new runners - HIIT

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Replies

  • ahamm002
    ahamm002 Posts: 1,690 Member
    Edit: And when did walking 3.7mph for 53 minutes become HIIT?

    So now you're just going to attack every single primary source I post. Once again, how many primary sources have you posted? Oh that's right, ZERO. Now it's my turn to tell you, either post a primary source or GTFO.

    Honestly, there's not even any debate anymore in regard to HIIT being better for body composition than endurance cardio. It's a well established fact supported by numerous research studies.

    It's called burden of proof.

    YOU made the claim that HIIT was superior. The burden of proof is on YOU to support your claim.

    None of your sources have supported this, not one.

    And you still can't post any literature to support your claims. Shocking.

    HIIT has been shown over and over again to lead to a better body composition than endurance cardio. That debate was over a long time ago. We could go on in circles: with me posting research studies that have been published in MAJOR PEER REVIEWED JOURNALS while you attack and dismiss each one without posting any evidence of your own. But there wouldn't be much point. You'll never accept that what you learned in 1975 is wrong.
  • RonSwanson66
    RonSwanson66 Posts: 1,150 Member
    Edit: And when did walking 3.7mph for 53 minutes become HIIT?

    So now you're just going to attack every single primary source I post. Once again, how many primary sources have you posted? Oh that's right, ZERO. Now it's my turn to tell you, either post a primary source or GTFO.

    Honestly, there's not even any debate anymore in regard to HIIT being better for body composition than endurance cardio. It's a well established fact supported by numerous research studies.

    It's called burden of proof.

    YOU made the claim that HIIT was superior. The burden of proof is on YOU to support your claim.

    None of your sources have supported this, not one.

    And you still can't post any literature to support your claims. Shocking.

    HIIT has been shown over and over again to lead to a better body composition than endurance cardio. That debate was over a long time ago. We could go on in circles: with me posting research studies that have been published in MAJOR PEER REVIEWED JOURNALS while you attack and dismiss each one without posting any evidence of your own. But there wouldn't be much point. You'll never accept that what you learned in 1975 is wrong.

    You have yet to post a single article that supports your claim.

    The last one didn't even use HIIT.

    NO EVIDENCE. Period.


    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Trivial hormonal fluctuations and fat people walking a little faster don't even remotely fit the bill.

    Did I post studies. No.

    I didn't need to. The ones you posted clearly demonstrated the lack of evidence for the superiority of HIIT.
  • RonSwanson66
    RonSwanson66 Posts: 1,150 Member
    A meta-analysis that sums up pretty much everything I've been saying:

    "Research on the impact of interval and continuous training with untrained to moderately trained subjects does not support the current interval craze, but the evidence does suggest that short intense training bouts and longer continuous exercise sessions should both be a part of effective endurance training. Elite endurance athletes perform 80 % or more of their training at intensities clearly below their lactate threshold and use high-intensity training surprisingly sparingly. Studies involving intensification of training in already well-trained athletes have shown equivocal results at best. The available evidence suggests that combining large volumes of low-intensity training with careful use of high-intensity interval training throughout the annual training cycle is the best-practice model for development of endurance performance"

    "Currently, there is great interest in high-intensity, short-duration interval training programs. However, careful evaluation of both available research and the training methods of successful endurance athletes suggests that we should be cautious not to over-prescribe high-intensity interval training or exhort the advantages of intensity over duration. "


    http://www.sportsci.org/2009/ss.htm
  • lifeskittles
    lifeskittles Posts: 438 Member
    Conclusion: They're both good. Do both. Get results. The end :)
  • BerryH
    BerryH Posts: 4,698 Member
    Conclusion: They're both good. Do both. Get results. The end :)
    :drinker:
  • NiciS72
    NiciS72 Posts: 1,043 Member
    Berry, thanks for sharing.
  • iplayoutside19
    iplayoutside19 Posts: 2,304 Member
    Back to original topic.

    I did Couch-to-5K to start running after trying to start running by....just running. It's a structured plan with pre-set goals. It was lower impact than sprinting. I weighed 312 lbs when I started C25K, blowing out a knee was one of my main concerns when starting the program.

    Once I finished the program and ran a few 5K's my knees felt much better. Shedding 30 lbs helped too. When I started training for 10K's I did one HIIT workout a week and saw excellent results with it.

    Since I started lifting again I've seen a much better response from my body while running.

    When people start posting these research papers my brain turns off and smoke starts billowing out of my ears. Each person is different and has to find what works for them. HIIT, long runs, weight lifting, curcuit training are all tools for getting more fit. Like mechanics tools you need to pick and choose which tools to use depending on what you're trying accomplish. As a begginning runner I used C25K, doesn't mean other won't have success with something else.

    ....and I firmly beleive Humans were made to run long distances. How else would we hunt and track game? They're also made for short bursts. How else would they actually catch the game once they got close.
  • ahamm002
    ahamm002 Posts: 1,690 Member
    A meta-analysis that sums up pretty much everything I've been saying:

    "Research on the impact of interval and continuous training with untrained to moderately trained subjects does not support the current interval craze, but the evidence does suggest that short intense training bouts and longer continuous exercise sessions should both be a part of effective endurance training. Elite endurance athletes perform 80 % or more of their training at intensities clearly below their lactate threshold and use high-intensity training surprisingly sparingly. Studies involving intensification of training in already well-trained athletes have shown equivocal results at best. The available evidence suggests that combining large volumes of low-intensity training with careful use of high-intensity interval training throughout the annual training cycle is the best-practice model for development of endurance performance"

    "Currently, there is great interest in high-intensity, short-duration interval training programs. However, careful evaluation of both available research and the training methods of successful endurance athletes suggests that we should be cautious not to over-prescribe high-intensity interval training or exhort the advantages of intensity over duration. "


    http://www.sportsci.org/2009/ss.htm

    Woah, I feel the need to warn other posters how misleading this source is.

    That was a meta-analysis on how endurance athletes (like marathon runners) should train. Of course if you're training for an endurance cardio sport like marathon running, then most of your training should also be in the form of endurance cardio. That's a no brainer.

    This does not support this poster's false conclusion that endurance cardio is equivalent to HIIT for body composition.
  • ahamm002
    ahamm002 Posts: 1,690 Member
    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Trivial hormonal fluctuations and fat people walking a little faster don't even remotely fit the bill.

    Did I post studies. No.

    I didn't need to. The ones you posted clearly demonstrated the lack of evidence for the superiority of HIIT.

    Claiming that HIIT is superior to endurance cardio for body composition would have been an extraordinary claim 15 years ago. Now it's the consensus.

    Here's a meta-analysis of HIIT from the Journal of Obesity:
    Boutcher, Stephen. High-Intensity Intermittent Exercise and Fat Loss. Journal of Obesity. 2011
  • RonSwanson66
    RonSwanson66 Posts: 1,150 Member
    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Trivial hormonal fluctuations and fat people walking a little faster don't even remotely fit the bill.

    Did I post studies. No.

    I didn't need to. The ones you posted clearly demonstrated the lack of evidence for the superiority of HIIT.

    Claiming that HIIT is superior to endurance cardio for body composition would have been an extraordinary claim 15 years ago. Now it's the consensus.

    You seem to confusing "consensus" with "fad"

    Here's a meta-analysis of HIIT from the Journal of Obesity:
    Boutcher, Stephen. High-Intensity Intermittent Exercise and Fat Loss. Journal of Obesity. 2011

    Meh.

    Closer observation shows the difference is unremarkable (as I've already stated). The greatest difference was shown in the aforementioned Tremblay study (wheee!)

    This pretty much sums it up:
    "Research examining the effects of HIIE has produced preliminary evidence to suggest that HIIE can result in modest reductions in subcutaneous and abdominal body fat in young normal weight and slightly overweight males and females."

    Big deal.

    Also keep in mind that NONE of the studies involved any other activity. This is my biggest beef with HIIT, it hinders recovery. Any advantage you get from HIIT is lost in the weight room.
  • engineman312
    engineman312 Posts: 3,450 Member
    does anyone here do Tae Bo?
  • jetscreaminagain
    jetscreaminagain Posts: 1,130 Member
    does anyone here do Tae Bo?

    I seriously love you and your *real * picture soooo much! :laugh: :drinker:
  • bump
  • engineman312
    engineman312 Posts: 3,450 Member
    i run with this

    440

    filled with water and with my wallet, phone, and keys, weighs about 6 pounds. it has a chest strap so it won't bounce around when you run. i might drop a 5lb hand weight in it too. it really adds some resistance, and the best thing, if it gets too heavy, you can always drink some!!

    oh, and when i ran without it on my 5 mile turkey trot race, i felt like i was flying.
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
    How did a thread on interval training for obese beginners turn into a discussion citing Kenyan marathoners? Seems like a threadjacking to me.

    More like free-form thread expression.
  • BerryH
    BerryH Posts: 4,698 Member
    Actually, there are those who argue humans were designed to run long distances, not short fast spurts. You should check out Born to Run. He raises that argument. Not saying he is right, but his argument was pretty interesting.
    Antarctic explorer and adventurer Mike Stroud makes the same case in Survival of the Fittest: Understanding Health And Peak Physical Performance.
  • BerryH
    BerryH Posts: 4,698 Member
    Back to original topic.

    I did Couch-to-5K to start running after trying to start running by....just running. It's a structured plan with pre-set goals. It was lower impact than sprinting. I weighed 312 lbs when I started C25K, blowing out a knee was one of my main concerns when starting the program.

    Once I finished the program and ran a few 5K's my knees felt much better. Shedding 30 lbs helped too. When I started training for 10K's I did one HIIT workout a week and saw excellent results with it.

    Since I started lifting again I've seen a much better response from my body while running.

    When people start posting these research papers my brain turns off and smoke starts billowing out of my ears. Each person is different and has to find what works for them. HIIT, long runs, weight lifting, curcuit training are all tools for getting more fit. Like mechanics tools you need to pick and choose which tools to use depending on what you're trying accomplish. As a begginning runner I used C25K, doesn't mean other won't have success with something else.

    ....and I firmly beleive Humans were made to run long distances. How else would we hunt and track game? They're also made for short bursts. How else would they actually catch the game once they got close.
    Great post, thanks for sharing. This was what I was looking for, how people's beginner's experience matched up with what Runner's World claims is a good approach. I'd be fascinated to hear the comparative results of anyone who starts with an HIIT-like programme like this one then moves on to the increasing intervals of C25K and this plan's part B.
  • ahamm002
    ahamm002 Posts: 1,690 Member
    Meh.

    Closer observation shows the difference is unremarkable (as I've already stated). The greatest difference was shown in the aforementioned Tremblay study (wheee!)

    This pretty much sums it up:
    "Research examining the effects of HIIE has produced preliminary evidence to suggest that HIIE can result in modest reductions in subcutaneous and abdominal body fat in young normal weight and slightly overweight males and females."

    Big deal.

    The bid deal is that for the past several decades people were told to do endurance cardio for fat loss. Now we've found that HIIT is significantly more effective. Numerous studies have supported this, and the difference is not even remotely negligable. Many people have completely failed in their attempts at weight loss because they were doing long slow boring cardio in the so-called "fat burning zone." They should have been doing HIIT instead.
    Also keep in mind that NONE of the studies involved any other activity. This is my biggest beef with HIIT, it hinders recovery. Any advantage you get from HIIT is lost in the weight room.

    Well I mostly agree with you on that point (actually 1 study actually did look at both combined with resistance and didn't find much of a difference). If you're already doing a good resistance training protocol, than the benefits of HIIT over endurance cardio probably arent' that signficant. However, the vast majority of the population doesn't do much in the way of good resistance training. And to make things worse, about half of the people who supposedly do "resistance training" are doing sets of 30 reps with 5 pound purple weights.
  • BerryH
    BerryH Posts: 4,698 Member
    I've just noticed RW omitted to specify what they mean by rest in the programme. Stop dead? Slow walk? Fast walk? Slow jog? Steady run? Obviously it would depend on your current fitness level, but seeing as the workout is aimed at complete beginners, you'd have thought they would have been a little more explicit.
  • I have used the hour of power - its on ebay or amazon and it is good. It made my running better.

    Saying this I gave up jogging and now only do sprints as they kick *kitten*!!!

    But i used to enjoy my running but not at this time of year. In and out for me.
  • I've just noticed RW omitted to specify what they mean by rest in the programme. Stop dead? Slow walk? Fast walk? Slow jog? Steady run? Obviously it would depend on your current fitness level, but seeing as the workout is aimed at complete beginners, you'd have thought they would have been a little more explicit.

    I did that too and it works!!!

    A beginners jogging pattern is ideal for HIT.
    As they run too fast normally get goosed and walk, then start agian all the way round the 3 miles say.
    Thats 40 - 50 mins of HIT with a really high heartrate.

    We can learn from the beginners - rather than have a steady rate heart rate!!!
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