Can I lose fat and gain muscle at the same time?

Bump again?

I've never seen a satisfactory answer to this, and many people's personal experiences seem to contradict the science. However, this article from BB.com, which the MFP muscle fans always quote, sets out a programme to achieve both simultaneously, but looks a bit extreme! Bear in mind it's also fairly old, so things have probably moved on.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kelly3.htm

Another interesting article with a different approach, seemingly backed up by research, here:

http://getfitguy.quickanddirtytips.com/how-to-lose-fat-and-gain-muscle-at-the-same-time.aspx

i think it is I am always left with 700 or so calories left. I just cant eat it all on most days. I think the types of foods have a lot to do with it. I have a pretty clean diet. I have just started to lift again and can see a noticeable change in my arms. While I havent lost more than like .25 inches of them.

I would say only if You try body recomp either cheat mode http://www.silverhydra.com/2011/03/cheat-mode-the-official-guide/
or leangains http://rippedbody.jp/2011/10/08/leangains-intermittent-fasting-guide-how-to-do-it-by-yourself/

I would also like to know it this can ever happen.

I have just started a lifting programme (3 x a week + some cardio in between) and am currently eating over my maintenance calories at 1800 a day , mainly so I can get more protein into my diet and build muscle.

I currently weigh 119lb and may gain at least 1or 2lb but as long as some of it is muscle I don't care. However on the days I exercise I still eat 1800 creating a very small deficit on those days, which may lead to me maintaining overall, which is fine but is it going to be possible to build any muscle in this way?

To the OP - I am no expert 1700 cals a days sounds VERY low for a man trying to build muscle. A small deficit, if any would be better surely?

I personally think Scooby has it about right. I reckon it's possible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same, but it is a process that will happen very slowly.

Muscle gains require calories and a higher level of protein, fat loss requires a calorie deficit. By having a very small deficit, and keeping up a high level of protein intake, I think it possible to lose fat and gain muscle, but the weight loss on the scale will be really, really slow.

It's a game of patience as much as anything, and taking measurements is a must so you don't become downhearted by the scale results.

I'm really surprised that this thread has not been ransacked with replies. I guess people are waiting to shoot down in flames anyone who states a case (one way or another).

So, at the risk of being the targets I will offer my opinion.

Personally, despite trying all sorts of different calorific inputs and work outs I've never managed muscle gain with fat loss. I can do one or the other* but not both at the same time and, as you might expect when cutting back to lose some of the fat gained along with new muscle I have lost both fat and muscle.

But there seems to be opinion (and of what I've seen it is opinion and anecdotal evidence) that simultaneous muscle gain and fat loss can be achieved in some cases. Specifically, in late teenage males who have the right hormonal balance to achieve muscle gain, and who are also relatively new to body building/strength training). But, for those of us who do not fit into this demographic it is considered very difficult to the point of being practically impossible.

I have read several training plans, with associated eating plans which claim to end the bulk/cut cycle and give simultaneous bulk/fat loss but I have no experience of doing this myself. They seem to concentrate on calorie and carbohydrate cycling, where you increase and decrease these relative to your workouts. Tom Ventuto has an "End of Bulking" program which may be this type of thing (but since you need to buy it and I'm a tight wad, I can't confirm).


*Disclaimer: I'm not a pure bodybuilder or strength trainer. I work out to try to obtain a good general level of fitness in strength, carido fitness and stamina and as such I lift and run. It is worth pointing this out because it is well documented that people who run distance have a harder time gaining muscle than those who don't.

I believe it all depends on your experience level and diet. If you're a new lifter, on a higher protein diet, you are going to gain muscle and lose fat on a calorie deficient diet (which many call newbie gains). However, that will only last a few weeks until your body adjusts.

I don't know if many people here are familiar with Scooby's site on weight training? I've always found him to be an authoritative person who seems to offer sound advice. He talks about how it's possible to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. He basically suggests that you need a high protein diet, consisting of a calorie deficit that is only very small, in order to achieve both muscle gain and fat loss, and he says that the traditional "bulking and cutting" is necessary for only very advanced bodybuilders.

But many people on this site say that you need a calorie deficit to lose weight, and a calorie surplus to build muscle.

These stances seem to be opposing.

Does anybody on here have any real experience of gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time?

Is it as simple as Scooby makes it sound?

I started weight training quite a few months ago and I already got past the "newbie effect" of big immediate gains, and now I'm finding it much harder to gain muscle.

I currently have my target set at losing 2lbs per week (giving me about 1700 calories per day, plus exercise cals). I've adjusted my %ages to increase the protein target in my diet, which I usually reach. My weight is dropping fast but I'm also losing LBM. Do I need to set my weight loss ambitions lower if I want to gain muscle too?

There is no way with a large caloric deficit to do this. If you want to try I would suggest a 10% deficit, a 1000 cal/day deficit (2lb/week goal) will lead to a loss of muscle, so the "newbie" muscle you gained will say bye bye shortly if your deficit is too large.

A small caloric dficit is 250 cals or less (0.5lb/week loss goal or less)

If your maintenance is 2400, your net calorie goal should not be less than 2160 if you expect to see any muscle gain improvement (still not very likely) but at this intake you shouldn't lose muscle.

How much protein are you getting? I would suggest 0.7 to 1gram per pound of body weight is you want to retain as much muscle as possible. Which will need to be higher than the 25% you are set at now. I would suggest setting your intake between 30 and 40% and don't forget to eat back the calories you burned from exercise.

even if you didn't want to gain muscle a 2lb/week goal is much too aggressive for the amount you have to lose. 2 lb/week is ideal when you have 75+ lbs to lose.

you need to talk to Zip, I'll send him your way

You can gain strength without gaining an ounce of muscle, too. So don't necessarily assume that strength = mass.
I have gained SOME muscle mass weight lifting over the past 5 months while dieting. Not very much.

Bump

Bump

Seems to be working for me so far over a period of a couple of months. I've been getting more strict and better at it as I go with the help of MFP.

The key thing i have to remember when im looking at my stats is the difference between weight loss and fat loss. I've set my targets to lose 1lb per week and am adjusting my diet to meet the plan MFP has given me for that goal. My daily allowance is 1800 calories and i'm normally on or slightly under that, I'm keeping a nice balanced diet which is reasonably healthy and keeping my protein intake on the high side of what MFP suggests.

I am not losing 1lb per week, but then I don't care, as my main goal is not actually weight loss, its fat loss and gain a bit of lean muscle / a bit more of a toned look. I was 85.5kg and i'm currently 83.8kg my goal being 81kg. I wont care if I dont reach 81kg as long as i lose a bit of body fat replaced by lean muscle, which may actually end up increasing my weight given that muscle weighs more than fat. Currently its working, im slimming but also gaining some muscle.

I understand that for more serious Muscle building for large size it's maybe not an option or possibility, but for a subtle change swapping some fat out for some lean muscle, with the right diet and excersice plan and depending on the build and the person etc.. I reckon its possible to lose fat (not weight) and gain muscle.

Certainly working for me and I'm happy with my progress, also just my personal view.

Whether or not YOU PERSONALLY can will depend on your metabolism. But if you look at the biochemistry, then yes, it is completely possible, and many people including myself have done it. It is more likely to work if you are very obese to start with.

The reason is that not all calories are created equal. The chemical reaction that uses carbs for energy in your body works *completely* differently from the chemical reaction that burns fat & protein for energy. The chemical reaction that burns fatty acids also requires amino acids (protein). It's roughly three parts fat to one part protein in order to keep the reaction going. Kind of like the way a fire requires both fuel and oxygen in order to burn. So, many people who are trying to burn fat don't eat enough protein, and their bodies harvest the needed protein from their muscles, and that's why they lose both fat and muscle. The solution is to make sure & eat enough protein.

Here's an *extremely oversimplified* breakdown, just to give you an idea:

Say I’m eating 2000 calories and my activity level is burning 2200 calories.
I eat 200 calories in carbs. I eat 600 calories in fat. I eat 1200 calories in protein.

My body burns the 200 calories of carbs right away. Most people's bodies prefer to get their energy from carbs. OK, so our total is now:
Remainder of what I’ve eaten: 600 fat, 1200 protein.
Energy still needed: 2000 calories.
My body burns the 600 calories of fat, and because the chemical reaction is 3 parts fat to 1 part protein, that also burns 200 calories of protein. So now we’ve burned a total of 1000 calories.
Remainder of what I’ve eaten: 1000 protein.
Energy still needed: 1200 calories.
Here’s where it gets interesting: all of my remaining calories were protein, but protein can’t be burned for energy all by itself. My body needs to harvest fat from its stores in order to burn the protein I've eaten.
So the next calories I burn (again, at three parts fat to one part protein) are 900 calories of stored fat and 300 calories of protein.
Remainder of what I’ve eaten: 700 protein.
Energy still needed: 0.
So we’ve now reached our 2200 calories of energy… but wait, if you look at the protein, we ate 1200 calories of protein but only burned 500 of them.
The rest of the protein can be used to repair and build muscle (and hair, fingernails, etc; protein is used for many things).
But this is how you can eat a calorie deficit, lose fat, and build muscle all at the same time.

Of course, as I say, this is very oversimplified. Just like any fire requires a spark to start it, any chemical reaction in your body requires hormones & chemical catalysts to start the reaction. Things like insulin, that instruct your cells about whether to store or burn calories at various times. And everyone's body is going to be different with regards to how efficiently it uses different chemicals & nutrients. That's why some people are perfectly healthy Vegans, and some people are perfectly healthy Paleo eaters. There is no one-size-fits-all when it comes to the wide variety in the human genome.

For example, I have a condition called "insulin resistance" or "hyperinsulinemia" which means that my body is lousy at processing carbs. It never mattered whether I ate a calorie deficit or not, I constantly gained weight as long as I included carbs in my diet. So frustrating! People always assumed I was cheating on my diet. When I was finally diagnosed, and lowered my carbs to 25-30g per day, suddenly that did the trick and I've been losing steadily ever since, for the first time in my life. My doctor does a BMI test every month, and he has told me that in addition to losing a lot of fat & water weight, I have also gained a small amount of muscle. I'm certainly not going to bulk up while also losing fat, but gaining muscle is not impossible if you look at the biochemistry.