The problem with Interval training (pretty long)

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I was reading a great article in OnFitness magazine (actually one of the old ones, March/April)
and wanted to quote a recent article.

Credit to Jade and Keoni Teta who are both trainers and writers for OnFitness.

This quote is from the March/April 2009 issue from the "Master the Technique" article.
and regards Tabata protocol and Interval training.

Tabata training is what we would describe as the most extreme example of interval training.
It's extremely short, extremely effective and extremely hard. The protocol entails roughly 4 minutes of super intense interval training. It entails a 20 second sprint followed by a 10 second rest. This is then repeated 6-8 times for a workout that is only 3 to 4 minutes in length total. But don't let the short time fool you. This is one of the most difficult systems we have ever encountered in the world of fitness, and it's not usually something you want to do with just any client unless you like cleaning vomit off your shoes. In the original research, the protocol was done on stationary bikes. The participants were told to sprint as hard as possible for 20 seconds approaching a VO2 max, well into the 120-170 percentile. In other words, these people were in an all-out, no=holds=barred sprint. Then they were instructed to rest for 10 seconds. Then they were to repeat. That was it. It's that simple.

HOW IS IT DIFFERENT FROM INTERVALS?
This protocol is actually not new at all. Dr. Tabata did these studies over 10 years ago. The protocol is different than other forms or interval training due to it's very short duration. For some reason, most trainers who use interval training insist on very long work intervals. In our opinion, this is where they go wrong. A work interval over one minute when doing intervals really begins to defeat the whole interval concept. It's fairly well established by those who do fitness testing on athletes, that even the most elite athletes cannot sustain an all-out-effort for more than 1 minute. Which means that 99.9 percent of the population has limits closer to 1-20 seconds. As soon as work interval goes over 1 minute, the pacing effect is engaged and fewer benefits are seen. Many people who swear they do intervals spend up to 4-5 minutes in the work phase of the intervals. Dr. Tabata showed back in 1997 that the shorter the interval, the better the effect. The study was published in the American College of Sports Medicine's flagship journal, Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise (March; Vol. 27 #3. In this study, Dr. Tabata showed that his 20 second work, 10 second rest protocol, done fro 3 minutes, was more effective than a 30 second work phase followed by 2 minutes of rest. The study showed that the oxygen debt accumulated in the Tabata protocol was more substantial and that his protocol taxed both the aerobic and anaerobic systems maximally. The longer protocol was effective only aerobically, but not to the same degree. For those who are unfamiliar with oxygen debt or EPOC(exercise post exercise oxygen consumption), it's a measure of the "afterburn" created from intense exercise. In other words, an exercise session with a very large oxygen debt of EPOC will create sustained fat burning far long after a workout ends. This, by the way, is the chief advantage of using interval training for fat loss over traditional aerobic exercises like long distance running or biking.


That's the end of the section I wanted to quote. The article goes on for a lot longer, and is just as riviting. I recommend picking up the issue on line at www.onfitnessmag.com

It's a trainers magazine, and sometimes goes very deep into issues, but really good if you can get past the technical aspect of it. No fluff about silly stuff, just straight hardcore nutrition and exercise that trainers would want to read.
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  • Wecandothis
    Wecandothis Posts: 1,083 Member
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    Ack! Does this mean we should be sprinting in intervals rather then doing say... the C24K?

    Every day some new piece of information. And always conflicting. :smile: Yarg
  • SHBoss1673
    SHBoss1673 Posts: 7,161 Member
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    Ack! Does this mean we should be sprinting in intervals rather then doing say... the C24K?

    Every day some new piece of information. And always conflicting. :smile: Yarg

    you mean c25K? not necessarily, but if intervals is what you want, then c25k isn't your best route. Intervals are a great way to burn fat, but as the article says, many trainers out there teach the wrong techniques and give people false sense of hope.
  • Wecandothis
    Wecandothis Posts: 1,083 Member
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    you mean c25K? not necessarily, but if intervals is what you want, then c25k isn't your best route. Intervals are a great way to burn fat, but as the article says, many trainers out there teach the wrong techniques and give people false sense of hope.

    Er... yes typo.

    Thanks.
  • jmdolan
    jmdolan Posts: 128
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    bump
  • Magenta15
    Magenta15 Posts: 850 Member
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    Ack! Does this mean we should be sprinting in intervals rather then doing say... the C24K?

    Every day some new piece of information. And always conflicting. :smile: Yarg



    i was going to ask the same thing about c25k but then I thought about it [while many of us may be using it for weight loss - myself included --- this is not the main goal of the intervals in the c25k...the goal in longer and longer intervals there... is to take someone who can't run more than 30 seconds x one interval without dying [LOL me!] and make them be able to actually "run" so going from nothing to something over a timeframe, just happens to be that many of us see the postive side effect of weight loss...and well as we should if I am going from 240 pounds with no excersice to now running im bound to lose :laugh:

    just a thought :bigsmile:

    but now I know I have the option when I get closer to my goal [i dont think im ready for this yet] to kick it up a notch and try this type of interval training :) so thanks for the info boss!
  • msarro
    msarro Posts: 2,748 Member
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    Ack! Does this mean we should be sprinting in intervals rather then doing say... the C24K?

    Every day some new piece of information. And always conflicting. :smile: Yarg

    you mean c25K? not necessarily, but if intervals is what you want, then c25k isn't your best route. Intervals are a great way to burn fat, but as the article says, many trainers out there teach the wrong techniques and give people false sense of hope.

    I think for running there's a line that should be drawn here between high intensity intervals like tabata and training intervals like c25k. They have two very different purposes, so comparing one to the other is like comparing apples and oranges, so saying that long intervals defeat the purpose of interval training sort of pigeonholes every type of interval training into one category.

    C25k should not be pushing you to your limit, if it is, you're doing it incorrectly. Its not intended to be a high intensity workout - its supposed to be a gentle acclimation to running for someone who has never run before. Its designed to completely avoid any sort of real intensity because pain and struggling tend to scare off new runners - its not until you go crazy and become a masochist that the pain starts to be part of it :laugh:. C25k builds endurance because its aerobic, and because it is made so that you increase your running duration by approximately 10% a week, which is the recommended rate for runners.

    Usually HIIT is anaerobic and you go until you can't go anymore, or at least thats how I've always done it.

    I personally do hillsprints, and its very similar to how banks described tabata, except I do it up a 10% grade. I usually feel like I'm going to hurl after about the 5th sprint. I'm doing this to increase my land speed, and to cut down on any struggling I may feel when I'm running 5k's on hills.

    Its a whole world difference between that and c25k, fw210k, etc. Two different types of training for two very different purposes.
  • SHBoss1673
    SHBoss1673 Posts: 7,161 Member
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    Right, I coulda been more clear.

    I meant to say that if your goal is to run a 5K then Tabata and strictly interval training isn't necessarily the best way to go about it. Although tabata WILL increase your endurance rapidly, as it's stated in the article, it's not for everyone, and beginner runners or exercisers should focus more on gaining strength and confidence (something the c25K program does very well) before they even attempt the Tabata or HIIT training techniques. Although Tabata and other HIIT is usually the next logical step for someone who is able to run a 5K at a decent clip as it increases stamina, leg strength, and VO2 max and blood oxygen efficiency.
  • msarro
    msarro Posts: 2,748 Member
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    Right, I coulda been more clear.

    I meant to say that if your goal is to run a 5K then Tabata and strictly interval training isn't necessarily the best way to go about it. Although tabata WILL increase your endurance rapidly, as it's stated in the article, it's not for everyone, and beginner runners or exercisers should focus more on gaining strength and confidence (something the c25K program does very well) before they even attempt the Tabata or HIIT training techniques. Although Tabata and other HIIT is usually the next logical step for someone who is able to run a 5K at a decent clip as it increases stamina, leg strength, and VO2 max and blood oxygen efficiency.

    Not to mention that tabata/HIIT tend to decrease chance of injury, because they loosen up your calves, strengthen your shins, and tend to improve your form.

    I can't believe there's coaches out there who try to push people beyond a minute with high intensity intervals... I think they call that homicide? :laugh:
  • Wecandothis
    Wecandothis Posts: 1,083 Member
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    Thank you!!! Now I get it!!

    I never ran at all, in my entire life until 2 weeks ago. I'm sticking with the program but I'm VERY slow. The mention of how short very intense interval training is much better at body fat burning than longer intervals is what got me thinking. I'm not nearly fit enough to even try that kind of interval training, it would not be good.

    Thanks guys! Just trying hard to learn as much as I can about all of this stuff.
  • VballLeash
    VballLeash Posts: 2,456 Member
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    Very helpful, thanks! I've been doing intervals for like 2 minutes, but I'm only at about 90%, I think I will cut them down to at least 30 sec to 1 min and kill myself for that time! :bigsmile: ...

    ~Leash :heart:
  • SHBoss1673
    SHBoss1673 Posts: 7,161 Member
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    Very helpful, thanks! I've been doing intervals for like 2 minutes, but I'm only at about 90%, I think I will cut them down to at least 30 sec to 1 min and kill myself for that time! :bigsmile: ...

    ~Leash :heart:

    yep, that's what I do, I do 2 sets of 6 Tabata protocol on the spinning bike (crazy? maybe a little) with about 1 minute between the two, it's brutal, and I'm dead when I'm done, but it's so worth it. 5K's are like candy now for me. That isn't to diminish the relative difficulty of 5K's for all you newbie runners out there, they can be rough if you haven't been training for a while. Heck, 2 years ago when I started, I could do 8 minutes at 6 mph on the treadmill, now I can do 35 minutes(truthfully, I can do a lot longer than that, but I only get 45 minutes for lunch so...) at about 8.5 mph steady and get off the treadmill and do my core workout.

    Don't worry kurneckc, you'll get there, it may take a little while, but you'll be running 25 minute 5K's soon enough!
  • hmo4
    hmo4 Posts: 1,673 Member
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    So, I know I can't do Tabata yet, but what is a better way? I was going hard for 15 sec, but to get my Hr down, I walked fast for about 45sec. Is that ok?
  • SHBoss1673
    SHBoss1673 Posts: 7,161 Member
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    So, I know I can't do Tabata yet, but what is a better way? I was going hard for 15 sec, but to get my Hr down, I walked fast for about 45sec. Is that ok?

    45 seconds might be a bit long, but if that's what you can do right now, then that's what you should start with, generally you should be able to go up by small increments about every 5 sessions or so. So make today your start date, and by the 5th time you do it after today, you should be able to go down by 5 seconds in the rest period and up by 5 seconds in the working period. If you do that 3 times you'll be at 30/30 after 15 sessions, at that point you should just lower your resting period about every 5 to 8 sessions. 20/10 is really for elite athletes (it took me 6 months to get to that point, and even now, I'm a tool for about 1/2 an hour afterwards), for most people 30/30 should be plenty to get you into that anaerobic zone and really work the fat burning. If you can eventually get to the 20/10 GREAT! but it's not really required to benefit from HIIT training.
  • hmo4
    hmo4 Posts: 1,673 Member
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    So, I know I can't do Tabata yet, but what is a better way? I was going hard for 15 sec, but to get my Hr down, I walked fast for about 45sec. Is that ok?

    45 seconds might be a bit long, but if that's what you can do right now, then that's what you should start with, generally you should be able to go up by small increments about every 5 sessions or so. So make today your start date, and by the 5th time you do it after today, you should be able to go down by 5 seconds in the rest period and up by 5 seconds in the working period. If you do that 3 times you'll be at 30/30 after 15 sessions, at that point you should just lower your resting period about every 5 to 8 sessions. 20/10 is really for elite athletes (it took me 6 months to get to that point, and even now, I'm a tool for about 1/2 an hour afterwards), for most people 30/30 should be plenty to get you into that anaerobic zone and really work the fat burning. If you can eventually get to the 20/10 GREAT! but it's not really required to benefit from HIIT training.

    So it doesn't matter if I walk to get it there? And it's ok if my Hr doewsn't go down that much?
  • SHBoss1673
    SHBoss1673 Posts: 7,161 Member
    Options
    So, I know I can't do Tabata yet, but what is a better way? I was going hard for 15 sec, but to get my Hr down, I walked fast for about 45sec. Is that ok?

    45 seconds might be a bit long, but if that's what you can do right now, then that's what you should start with, generally you should be able to go up by small increments about every 5 sessions or so. So make today your start date, and by the 5th time you do it after today, you should be able to go down by 5 seconds in the rest period and up by 5 seconds in the working period. If you do that 3 times you'll be at 30/30 after 15 sessions, at that point you should just lower your resting period about every 5 to 8 sessions. 20/10 is really for elite athletes (it took me 6 months to get to that point, and even now, I'm a tool for about 1/2 an hour afterwards), for most people 30/30 should be plenty to get you into that anaerobic zone and really work the fat burning. If you can eventually get to the 20/10 GREAT! but it's not really required to benefit from HIIT training.

    So it doesn't matter if I walk to get it there? And it's ok if my Hr doewsn't go down that much?

    with the short rest periods I wouldn't expect the HR to drop more than about 8 to 10% anyway, if you get up to about 88% or 90% max HR then you probably want to try to get down to about 80% during rest, but I doubt you'll have time to get much lower than that. This is a differentiation from how I used to think, I used to think (wrongly as it turns out) that I needed to get back into the mid 70s for it to be effective, but I've come to learn that's not necessarily true. It's more about the difference (on the low end) than the total.

    For instance, when I have a good tabata day, I max out at about 89 to 90% and I usually never fall below about 81 or 82% until my 1 minute between sets rest, when I get down to about 65%
  • hmo4
    hmo4 Posts: 1,673 Member
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    That's been my hook up. Thinking it was about lowering my HR. K, so 30/30. Can I then go hard and walk fast or do I have to jog?
  • SHBoss1673
    SHBoss1673 Posts: 7,161 Member
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    That's been my hook up. Thinking it was about lowering my HR. K, so 30/30. Can I then go hard and walk fast or do I have to jog?

    I actually step on the side rails on the treadmill when I am at rest. It's such a fast routine that I don't have time to change the speeds, it takes too long.
  • toots99
    toots99 Posts: 3,794 Member
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    Its a whole world difference between that and c25k, fw210k, etc. Two different types of training for two very different purposes.

    What is fw210k?
  • msarro
    msarro Posts: 2,748 Member
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    Its a whole world difference between that and c25k, fw210k, etc. Two different types of training for two very different purposes.

    What is fw210k?

    Freeway to 10k, its a running program to train for a 10k after completing a 5k training course.
  • SHBoss1673
    SHBoss1673 Posts: 7,161 Member
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    wish I could do 10K's, but I have a broken sesamoid bone in my foot, anything more than about 4 miles and it really starts to hurt bad. Hoping it heals before the end of October cuz there is a 7K I want to do around thanksgiving. I'd like to do it in under 29 minutes, we'll see.