Stronglifts 5x5 - scared to fatten up...

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scottywor
scottywor Posts: 140 Member
in Fitness and Exercise
Hi all, While I am no expert in weight training or nutrition by any means, i do now enough to get by. I have learned so much in the past few years. Which makes me feel a bit silly for posting this but here goes...

This quick background will make sense in the end...

I have been up and down, like most with weight. I was 300lbs in November of 2006, and got down to 210 in April of 2007. I stayed around there for a bit, and slowly started to put on pounds. I lost the initial weight thru proper nutrition and training. I found my self in 2012 of this year at 248 lbs 32% BF i assume maybe higher. I decided I would change myself and my lifestyle. I started back at the gym and found MFP, and really started to get serious with myself. Today i find myself at 188 lbs and ~26.5%, although, using different methods, i go from 22% - 26.5%BF. I'm 5'11, medium to large body frame. Ideal for me is somewhere around 175-180 lbs or so.

I have my diet in check, thanks to the great stuff here and elsewhere (re:TDEE, etc.) I am still working with a 500 cal deficit, and losing. I have also been weight training for 2 months (at first all i did was cardio 6 days per week, but have wised up since) I do a total body w/o, 3 push/3 pull compound movements, and 3 days of cardio, moderate 4mile run.

Now to the question....sorry about being long winded, n I'm prolly leaving crap out too lol...

I have been looking to start Stronglifts 5x5... (As I know this is the smartest approach) My problem is that I am very afraid to start eating beyond maintenance, actually ~3100 cals as opposed to the 2200 cals I'm eating at the moment. And to slow cardio if not stop it.

I dont want to bulk (as in eat n get fat...again...), but I know that building muscle has a direct effect on fat loss, and I know that I will gain muscle weight, and some fat, but will lose more BF than anything else. Why am I then so undecided about doing the Stronglifts program...??? I, maybe like many here, have a real fear of reverting back to my previous ways, it has happened before... Although this time I know that it is different, it is still always in the back of my mind...

I kept saying to myself, I will start eating and training for strength when I got down to my ideal weight.... Should I wait until Im around 180, or would doing Stronglifts, in the end, help me reach my goals and then some....?? (I think i know the answer....)

Please any help or advice is very much appreciated!

Thanks all :smile:
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Replies

  • aproc
    aproc Posts: 1,033 Member
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    Waiting to do it until you reach a certain goal wouldn't be doing any more good. Starting it now could help with that goal. Don't be afraid of the bulk, fat will come with it but it will be easier to lose after you put on some muscle mass and start cutting. You can always play with your calories and decrease a bit if you feel you are gaining too fast. Just eat plenty of whole foods and stick with it. I have a past with eating disorders and still deal with them now so I know how you feel about reverting back to previous ways. I find myself overeating even after my surplus sometimes but it's just important to keep moving forward.
  • kalintohu
    kalintohu Posts: 8
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    The more muscle you have, the faster you're gonna burn fat afterwards. And as you know building tissue requires more time than burning it. The optimal weight gain is 1 pound per week, while you can achieve 2 pounds loss per week while still keeping muscle. Also you can always go for 3 weeks gaining, 1 week cutting. That way you're gonna be gaining one pound of lean muscle every month. Just remember to push yourself to the limit of your strength while building muscle and take it easy while cutting the fat. In the last week you will only want to maintain the muscle, so you don't want to break its tissues by a degree by which your body won't be able to restore them with the calorie deficit.
  • Luthorcrow
    Luthorcrow Posts: 193
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    You have some options. One you could try eating a little less than the 3100 goal. You could try starting off with just an extra 500 above maintenance, make sure that at least 30% of your calories are quality protein (milk, meat, eggs, etc.) and get good rest. See how far that takes you. Eventually you will need to eat more. In fact you will eventually need to eat more than the 3100 goal you are looking at now.

    Another option, keep in mind lifting heavy is not your only strength training option. You would do something like the Fat Loss I, II and III programs in New Rules for Weight Lifting mixed with some HIT and come back to lifting heavy after you have dropped some weight and built a little base strength.

    Either way just now that when you decide to focus on either pure strength (heavy) or hypertrophy (body building), you have to eat a ton to gain lean body weight.
  • tenunderfour
    tenunderfour Posts: 429 Member
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    I'm going to disagree with the above folks. I am by NO means an expert, but from what i have ready from both Leigh Peele and Tom Venuto..... it is very hard to both lose fat and build a large amount of muscle at the same time. In order to lose fat you MUST exist in a deficit. And to put on a lot of lean mass.... you cannot be in a deficit.

    If I were you - I would continue my decreased calories (maintain your 500 cal per day deficit) until you get to a weight and/or body fat percentage that you are happy with. At that point then start eating more - come up to maintenance. I think you can start the Stronglifts program right now - but just be aware that your muscle gains will be limited because of the dieting down. You will still get the benefits of strength training though. And if you start upping your calories right now - while your BF% is around 26 - then you might end up with that bulky look you want to avoid because you still have fat to lose. Make sense?
  • EPICSRT
    EPICSRT Posts: 222 Member
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    @ScottyWor: I don't think this qualifies as advise, but.....

    I am kind of the sme boat as you with wanting to do Strong Lifts. I have lost almost 60 pounds (I'm 5'10"), currently weigh in at 162 and am afraid of gaining too much back.

    After giving it some considerable thought I decided to stick with my original overall goal which is keep my weight between 162 and 168 and at the same time keeping it simple as far as workouts are concerned. I do not want to get caught up in the cycle of bulking and cutting and then trying to force myself to stay cut when I don't want spend a carp load of time in the gym and I still would like to eat what/how I want.

    So far (I've been at about 162 for over 4 months now) cycling cardio with lifting I have not gained any weight but I have still lost inches from various parts of my body. Most notably from my waist (now at 32").

    I guess the point I'm trying to make is decide where you want to be and what you want to look like and go from there. For me, it was focusing on losing the weight via cardio and high intesity stuff, then after hitting my target to add in more streagth training, but not too much of either.

    I have come to terms with the fact that I may never have six-pack abs and may never be super defined, but that's okay because I really don't want to spend all the extra time it would take to stay that way.


    NOW........if some almighty guru has any suggestions on how to do a program like Strong Lifts that would allow me to stay below 170, then I am all ears!!!
  • brandon0523
    brandon0523 Posts: 516
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    whoa.. you wanna get bigger?? you wanna get stronger?? do the 5x5!!!!! or the 5-3-1.. Do you have to gain fat to get stronger??? No freakin way.. Keep your diet on check, keeps doing 30 mins of cardio 4 times a week. your gonna need higher proteins than normal but you will be using them much more so you wont have to worry about adding "bad" weight.. I have really good programs i have used over the years to get big and strong and still lean. Any questions you have about your training i am always willing to help anyone. Do i consider myself an expert, hmmm thats a good question. NO but im darn good
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
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    I'm going to disagree with the above folks. I am by NO means an expert, but from what i have ready from both Leigh Peele and Tom Venuto..... it is very hard to both lose fat and build a large amount of muscle at the same time. In order to lose fat you MUST exist in a deficit. And to put on a lot of lean mass.... you cannot be in a deficit.

    If I were you - I would continue my decreased calories (maintain your 500 cal per day deficit) until you get to a weight and/or body fat percentage that you are happy with. At that point then start eating more - come up to maintenance. I think you can start the Stronglifts program right now - but just be aware that your muscle gains will be limited because of the dieting down. You will still get the benefits of strength training though. And if you start upping your calories right now - while your BF% is around 26 - then you might end up with that bulky look you want to avoid because you still have fat to lose. Make sense?

    This! You will still have strength gains while in deficit due to neural muscular training but you won't nessesarily gain new muscle tissue. You will continue to lose fat and Stronglifts will help you with that. You won't bulk if you stay in deficit or even at maintenance. To gain muscle your need to be eating a surplus. Don't want to bulk? Don't eat a surplus. Strength training will still benefit you.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
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    @ScottyWor: I don't think this qualifies as advise, but.....

    I am kind of the sme boat as you with wanting to do Strong Lifts. I have lost almost 60 pounds (I'm 5'10"), currently weigh in at 162 and am afraid of gaining too much back.

    After giving it some considerable thought I decided to stick with my original overall goal which is keep my weight between 162 and 168 and at the same time keeping it simple as far as workouts are concerned. I do not want to get caught up in the cycle of bulking and cutting and then trying to force myself to stay cut when I don't want spend a carp load of time in the gym and I still would like to eat what/how I want.

    So far (I've been at about 162 for over 4 months now) cycling cardio with lifting I have not gained any weight but I have still lost inches from various parts of my body. Most notably from my waist (now at 32").

    I guess the point I'm trying to make is decide where you want to be and what you want to look like and go from there. For me, it was focusing on losing the weight via cardio and high intesity stuff, then after hitting my target to add in more streagth training, but not too much of either.

    I have come to terms with the fact that I may never have six-pack abs and may never be super defined, but that's okay because I really don't want to spend all the extra time it would take to stay that way.


    NOW........if some almighty guru has any suggestions on how to do a program like Strong Lifts that would allow me to stay below 170, then I am all ears!!!

    You can gain strength and fitness without gaining weight. See my response above.
  • petchib
    petchib Posts: 15
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    You will only fatten up if you eat the wrong kind of foods...i.e fatty food high in saturated fat..junk food, deep fried food etc.. Try to not be too concerned with how much you eat (calories), the most important thing is to eat the right of food and eat lots of it, especially when you start lifting heavy as your body and muscles will need it. Stick to lean protein, healthy carbs and veg/salad and you will NOT gain fat.
  • scottywor
    scottywor Posts: 140 Member
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    You will only fatten up if you eat the wrong kind of foods...i.e fatty food high in saturated fat..junk food, deep fried food etc.. Try to not be too concerned with how much you eat (calories), the most important thing is to eat the right of food and eat lots of it, especially when you start lifting heavy as your body and muscles will need it. Stick to lean protein, healthy carbs and veg/salad and you will NOT gain fat.

    Ya i know that, my bad, I didnt mean Fat as in gaining Fat cells (more in a metaphorical way, I should have been way more \specific!))... I meant gaining any kind of weight, as my goal here is to maintain muscle mass, and Lose Fat, I do not want to bulk at this point. Although a very small gain in LBM, due to strength training (5x5, or whatever) is fine :) So eating excess calories would cause weight gain in general as is needed for bulking, but i want to lose about 5-8% BF before i go that direction.

    I think i have figured what Im going to do.

    Thanks all for your input!
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
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    You will only fatten up if you eat the wrong kind of foods...i.e fatty food high in saturated fat..junk food, deep fried food etc.. Try to not be too concerned with how much you eat (calories), the most important thing is to eat the right of food and eat lots of it, especially when you start lifting heavy as your body and muscles will need it. Stick to lean protein, healthy carbs and veg/salad and you will NOT gain fat.

    With all due respect, this is not accurate. You will be more healthy the cleaner you eat but calories do matter. If you eat in a deficit or at maintenance you will not gain mass. If you eat a surplus you will. Type of food has only a slight relationship to weight gain or loss. Calories have a direct relationship. The law of thermodynamics applies to all of us! But don't take my word for it. Google the Twinkie Diet.
  • AngryDiet
    AngryDiet Posts: 1,349 Member
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    I've done a bunch of reading, and while I fear the "broscience" it does seem to me that folks have been able to gain muscle mass and lose fat at the same time by lifting heavy, keeping a very modest caloric deficit (about 10% or so under TDEE) while eating a lot of good protein.

    Now perhaps one doesn't gain as much muscle as if they were eating a surplus of calories, but still.... if one wants to compromise until they reach their ideal body fat %, is this not an option?

    I would like to know where the 3100 calorie number came from in the OP. I'm not challenging it - I would just like to know where it came from.
  • scottywor
    scottywor Posts: 140 Member
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    I've done a bunch of reading, and while I fear the "broscience" it does seem to me that folks have been able to gain muscle mass and lose fat at the same time by lifting heavy, keeping a very modest caloric deficit (about 10% or so under TDEE) while eating a lot of good protein.

    Now perhaps one doesn't gain as much muscle as if they were eating a surplus of calories, but still.... if one wants to compromise until they reach their ideal body fat %, is this not an option?

    I would like to know where the 3100 calorie number came from in the OP. I'm not challenging it - I would just like to know where it came from.

    Dont get me wrong my priority is Fat Loss, not Muscle gain, and not both at same time, sorry if it came across as both. i like to set one goal and see it thru. Although there can be slight gains in both at same time.

    The 3100 or so came from my maintenance calories ~2700 + 15%, I figured a good number to maintain (possibly adding more calories on lifting days) with. Maybe eating to maintenance on lifting days is better for weight loss?

    My purpose behind the post was just what u are saying. i dont mind putting larger muscle gains on the back burner, while getting done to the 15% BF i want, from the 23% I am currently. I dont mind a small gain in muscle, it is fat i want to lose, and as I get closer to this % I will increase calories. Perhaps a surplus (10-15% on lifting days or maintenance) and moderate deficit (20-25% on rest/cardio days)?

    Im just scratching the surface of this wonderful nutrition world and learning everyday, thanks all.
  • spazofthedead
    spazofthedead Posts: 175 Member
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    I've done a bunch of reading, and while I fear the "broscience" it does seem to me that folks have been able to gain muscle mass and lose fat at the same time by lifting heavy, keeping a very modest caloric deficit (about 10% or so under TDEE) while eating a lot of good protein.

    Now perhaps one doesn't gain as much muscle as if they were eating a surplus of calories, but still.... if one wants to compromise until they reach their ideal body fat %, is this not an option?

    I would like to know where the 3100 calorie number came from in the OP. I'm not challenging it - I would just like to know where it came from.

    Dont get me wrong my priority is Fat Loss, not Muscle gain, and not both at same time, sorry if it came across as both. i like to set one goal and see it thru. Although there can be slight gains in both at same time.

    The 3100 or so came from my maintenance calories ~2700 + 15%, I figured a good number to maintain (possibly adding more calories on lifting days) with. Maybe eating to maintenance on lifting days is better for weight loss?

    My purpose behind the post was just what u are saying. i dont mind putting larger muscle gains on the back burner, while getting done to the 15% BF i want, from the 23% I am currently. I dont mind a small gain in muscle, it is fat i want to lose, and as I get closer to this % I will increase calories. Perhaps a surplus (10-15% on lifting days or maintenance) and moderate deficit (20-25% on rest/cardio days)?

    Im just scratching the surface of this wonderful nutrition world and learning everyday, thanks all.

    Overall, you'll need to at maintenance or less to lose BF%. I've heard of calorie cycling (eating over maintenence on lifting days and at a defecit on rest days, like you mentioned) working fairly well but have no experience with it personally. I imagine it takes more willpower than I currently have to pull that off.

    I'd just be concerned with an overall, weekly deficit. I think you figured this out pretty well though.
  • petchib
    petchib Posts: 15
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    You will only fatten up if you eat the wrong kind of foods...i.e fatty food high in saturated fat..junk food, deep fried food etc.. Try to not be too concerned with how much you eat (calories), the most important thing is to eat the right of food and eat lots of it, especially when you start lifting heavy as your body and muscles will need it. Stick to lean protein, healthy carbs and veg/salad and you will NOT gain fat.

    With all due respect, this is not accurate. You will be more healthy the cleaner you eat but calories do matter. If you eat in a deficit or at maintenance you will not gain mass. If you eat a surplus you will. Type of food has only a slight relationship to weight gain or loss. Calories have a direct relationship. The law of thermodynamics applies to all of us! But don't take my word for it. Google the Twinkie Diet.

    I never said calories do not matter. My point was that before you start counting calories the most important thing is to eat the right kind of foods and you will not go far wrong. For example eating 1000 calories of oatmeal will have a lot different and healthier affect than eating 1000 calories of ice-cream.

    You are what you eat and no matter how many calories you take in each day - it is just a number - the most important thing is what foods are you eating to reach your ideal calorie in-take.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
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    You will only fatten up if you eat the wrong kind of foods...i.e fatty food high in saturated fat..junk food, deep fried food etc.. Try to not be too concerned with how much you eat (calories), the most important thing is to eat the right of food and eat lots of it, especially when you start lifting heavy as your body and muscles will need it. Stick to lean protein, healthy carbs and veg/salad and you will NOT gain fat.

    With all due respect, this is not accurate. You will be more healthy the cleaner you eat but calories do matter. If you eat in a deficit or at maintenance you will not gain mass. If you eat a surplus you will. Type of food has only a slight relationship to weight gain or loss. Calories have a direct relationship. The law of thermodynamics applies to all of us! But don't take my word for it. Google the Twinkie Diet.

    I never said calories do not matter. My point was that before you start counting calories the most important thing is to eat the right kind of foods and you will not go far wrong. For example eating 1000 calories of oatmeal will have a lot different and healthier affect than eating 1000 calories of ice-cream.

    You are what you eat and no matter how many calories you take in each day - it is just a number - the most important thing is what foods are you eating to reach your ideal calorie in-take.
    On one side I completly agree with you. After all, what are we doing this for if not health? But in terms of bulking or not, it's all about calories. Respectfully, I don't see the difference in your example. Yes, 1000 calories of the 2 you compared are similar. There is a certain amount of carbs in both and there is actually more protien and fat in the ice cream. As my experience and knowledge have evolved, I've come to the position where reducing body fat and increasing fitness trump all else. I work at eating clean and I just think that's smart but if you look at the research, health markers improve regardless if diet if body fat is reducced.
  • fireguy286
    fireguy286 Posts: 14 Member
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    I personally cannot seem to do a linear progression program like stronglifts or any other 5*5 type program while worrying about gaining a bit of weight. I still think you should lift heavy and do compound lifts, but, just not able to raise the weights quickly like they do in these programs. IMO you need to eat a calorie surplus to be able to do the linear progression without burning out. If you just want to lose fat, eat a slight calorie defecit, lift heavy, and do some conditioning,( hill sprints are really good). You can keep most of your muscle and lose fat by doing this.
  • crisanderson27
    crisanderson27 Posts: 5,343 Member
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    www.leangains.com

    DEFINITELY something to consider.
  • monty619
    monty619 Posts: 1,308 Member
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    if you have ehough bodyfat% say over 15% there is no need to "bulk" just eat matinance calories and you will get leaner and gain more muscle at the same time.. once you have been training for a longer period of time say around 6 months or longer, then you have to start upping calories to see muscle gain.. rule you could go by is just eat when you are hungry because lifting weights will raise ur metabolism and make you hungrier.. no need to force down food especially if you are just finding success from weightloss.
  • scottywor
    scottywor Posts: 140 Member
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    www.leangains.com

    DEFINITELY something to consider.

    Ture dat, I have been looking into this for a couple weeks, and getting a ton of info, I posted regarding it yesterday, just joined the IF group this a few seconds ago.. Looking to start in next couple weeks, just need to get some more info, re: macros, cas, etc. and TRAINING, interms of optimal training.

    Found out by BF is 23%, want to get to 15% or so. IF looks very doable IMHO!!

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