Maximum deficit - 31cal per lb of fat?

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ladyraven68
ladyraven68 Posts: 2,003 Member
in Health and Weight Loss
I have seen this mentioned in other places, but the article Lyle McDonald wrote on it seems to have dissapeared. Maybe he changed his mind. Do any of you Lyle fans have the original article?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15615615

Taken from another site

It has been found in scientific work that a sedentary person can oxidize 31 calories from adipose tissue every 24 hours.

This means that the more fat you carry, the larger your deficit can be, without catabolized non-fatty tissues (muscle).

Example: A 200 pound man with 20% bodyfat carries 40 pounds of fat, thus he can maintain 40x31 calories = 1240 calorie deficit per day, without losing muscle tissue.

Example: A 200 pound man with 5% bodyfat carries only 10 pounds of fat, thus he can only maintain 10x31 calories = 310 calorie deficit per day.

So, the bigger and fatter you are, the bigger your deficit can be. Large, obese persons can maintain large deficits. The leaner you get, the smaller your deficit should be.

here is an article written along these lines, authored by Lyle McDonald, whose is generally credited to be one of the foremost experts in fat loss anatomy.

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/articles/lyle_mc donald/maximum_fatloss"
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Replies

  • ladyraven68
    ladyraven68 Posts: 2,003 Member
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    Found the article but it's a few years old.

    So, not sure if it is still true or has since been misproven.

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=109897051&page=1
  • ladyraven68
    ladyraven68 Posts: 2,003 Member
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    *duplicated*
  • thegoya
    thegoya Posts: 100 Member
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    bump
  • Goal_Seeker_1988
    Goal_Seeker_1988 Posts: 1,619 Member
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    bump
  • yarwell
    yarwell Posts: 10,477 Member
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    time travel.....

    http://web.archive.org/web/20080417050946/http://www.mindandmuscle.net/articles/lyle_mcdonald/maximum_fatloss?page=0,0

    In 4 weeks the subjects at http://www.diabetologia-journal.org/Lim.pdf lost an average of 5.4 kg of fat. That's 0.42 pounds per day or 1486 calories worth per day which is probably about right for their deficit. At the end the fat mass was an average of 26 kg / 57 lbs which would make the final release rate 1486 / 57 = 26 calories per day per lb of fat mass.

    So that fits with the original result.
  • ladyraven68
    ladyraven68 Posts: 2,003 Member
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    time travel.....

    http://web.archive.org/web/20080417050946/http://www.mindandmuscle.net/articles/lyle_mcdonald/maximum_fatloss?page=0,0

    Yes, that's the article I linked to in my second post.
  • Helloitsdan
    Helloitsdan Posts: 5,564 Member
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    Since Facebooks "Timeline" Screws up notes, this is a copy of what Martin Berkhan says about fat loss and body mass.
    In essence, the bigger you are the better you lose fat...and vise versa.

    http://forum.fitnessbloggen.no/threads/the-logics-of-weight-loss-artikkel-av-martin-berkhan.3181/
  • meredithashton
    meredithashton Posts: 52 Member
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    bump
  • yarwell
    yarwell Posts: 10,477 Member
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    Yes, that's the article I linked to in my second post.

    it's the original, archived. When I got to your second post I saw that someone had repeated it in a forum that was still active.
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,401 MFP Moderator
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    Very interesting find.
  • Toddrific
    Toddrific Posts: 1,114 Member
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    So applying this to myself..208lb ~26% body fat I can have around a 1700 calorie deficit, but deficit from what? Obviously not BMR.
    Maintenance calories is around 2600..that'd put me at...900???

    Meh.
  • erickirb
    erickirb Posts: 12,293 Member
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    Not sure if this was covered, but I'm sure with deficits that large the dieter must be ingesting a *kitten* load of protein and partaking in a heavy lifting resistance training program to not lose lean muscle while losing fat on such a large deficit.

    I would assume a minimum of 1gram protein per lb of lean body mass, and a routine that hits every muscle group at least twice/week in order to not lose lean mass.
  • persian_star
    persian_star Posts: 197 Member
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    Just to clarify, I assume this applies to men only*? Having done the maths for my small female stats (23% of 124lb x 31 = 884, take from TDEE of 1600) that would allow me to only eat 750 cals a day, which isn't my idea of healthy!

    Edit *I say this because men can get to a much lower body fat %
  • ladyraven68
    ladyraven68 Posts: 2,003 Member
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    Not sure if this was covered, but I'm sure with deficits that large the dieter must be ingesting a *kitten* load of protein and partaking in a heavy lifting resistance training program to not lose lean muscle while losing fat on such a large deficit.

    I would assume a minimum of 1gram protein per lb of lean body mass, and a routine that hits every muscle group at least twice/week in order to not lose lean mass.

    That's why I was wondering if it had been disproved.

    It's also being used here - http://www.1percentedge.com/ifcalc/ as a basis for maximum fat metabolism.
  • yarwell
    yarwell Posts: 10,477 Member
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    That's why I was wondering if it had been disproved.

    Disproved could mean higher rates are possible, or other studies couldn't get that high. Like I said above the Newcastle diabetes study was pretty close to this result - large calorie deficit, no specific exercise regime, 46.4% carbohydrate, 32.5% protein and 20.1% fat PSMF.

    31 cal per lb suggests a limiting weight loss of 31*100*7/3500 = 6.2% of your body fat per week.

    The Newcastle folks lost fat at 5.1% of their fat mass per week at the end, when fat loss was 94% of total weight loss.
    http://www.diabetologia-journal.org/Lim.pdf

    Very interesting.
  • yarwell
    yarwell Posts: 10,477 Member
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    Just to clarify, I assume this applies to men only*

    No reason to say that as far as I can see.

    For clarity, this number is proposed as the maximum rate at which energy can be released from fat stores, for example during a fast or a high deficit diet. It isn't a proposal for a target for dieting, it's a limit above which bad things might happen

    The original paper is www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15615615
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
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    Bump to read the articles/studies later. Thanks for posting.
  • love4fitnesslove4food_wechange
    love4fitnesslove4food_wechange Posts: 6,897 Member
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    Okay---assuming a 15% bf (generous estimation)...I can have a 465 deficit--woo hoo. awesome!
  • Mercenary1914
    Mercenary1914 Posts: 1,087 Member
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    I have seen this mentioned in other places, but the article Lyle McDonald wrote on it seems to have dissapeared. Maybe he changed his mind. Do any of you Lyle fans have the original article?

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15615615

    Taken from another site

    It has been found in scientific work that a sedentary person can oxidize 31 calories from adipose tissue every 24 hours.

    This means that the more fat you carry, the larger your deficit can be, without catabolized non-fatty tissues (muscle).

    Example: A 200 pound man with 20% bodyfat carries 40 pounds of fat, thus he can maintain 40x31 calories = 1240 calorie deficit per day, without losing muscle tissue.

    Example: A 200 pound man with 5% bodyfat carries only 10 pounds of fat, thus he can only maintain 10x31 calories = 310 calorie deficit per day.

    So, the bigger and fatter you are, the bigger your deficit can be. Large, obese persons can maintain large deficits. The leaner you get, the smaller your deficit should be.

    here is an article written along these lines, authored by Lyle McDonald, whose is generally credited to be one of the foremost experts in fat loss anatomy.

    http://www.mindandmuscle.net/articles/lyle_mc donald/maximum_fatloss"

    I truely do buy into this...was talking about this the other day...Body fat is STORED energy...if you take in less energy than you need to get through the day your body will burn fat..especially if it's high %'s before muscle...

    I know someone who is 5'7" weighed 210...lost 50 lbs since January using the 1200 cal diet AND lifting weights and working out....He is ripped like crazy right now...
  • love4fitnesslove4food_wechange
    love4fitnesslove4food_wechange Posts: 6,897 Member
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    Just to clarify, I assume this applies to men only*? Having done the maths for my small female stats (23% of 124lb x 31 = 884, take from TDEE of 1600) that would allow me to only eat 750 cals a day, which isn't my idea of healthy!

    Edit *I say this because men can get to a much lower body fat %

    I doubt that your TDEE is 1600...but even assuming it's more, the 31 cals per pound of fat is not a RECOMMENDED deficit it is a maximum deficit. All the recommendation is alluding to is the GREATEST POSSIBLE deficit you can have after which you will MOST CERTAINLY catabolize your muscles in order to fuel your metabolic processes. For you it would be if your deficit is greater than 868 (.23 * 124 = 28. 28 x 31 = 868).

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