Reducing BF% - to eat at a deficit or not?

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  • Glucocorticoid
    Glucocorticoid Posts: 867 Member
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    If you want practical recommendations on whether you should bulk or cut, read this:
    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/initial-body-fat-and-body-composition-changes.html

    Also, note that simply being in a deficit is not all that is required in order to lose fat while preserving muscle mass (in most cases).
  • LaurenAOK
    LaurenAOK Posts: 2,475 Member
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    I think I would like to go with option 1 first. Try to get rid of some excess fat, THEN work on building muscle. Does that sound reasonable, or is it better to do it the other way around? I guess what I'm afraid of with that option is that I'll lose the fat, then eat at maintenance or even a slight surplus to gain muscle, but end up just gaining fat again.

    When you go into surplus eating you will gain fat along with the muscle. You will then go into another cutting phase later on to remove as much of the fat as possible. It's a constant battle where you gain fat and muscle, and you lose fat and muscle. Your goal is to minimize the fat gains during a bulk and minimize the lean losses during a cut. (EDIT: I'm generalizing a bit here, that previous sentence isn't universally true but I'm trying to make a point).

    If you do it correctly (no extreme surplusses or deficits, adequate macro intake, sufficient training stimulus) then you'll come out well ahead when you look at multiple cycles of bulking and cutting.

    It's not a one time thing, you will likely have to do a few cycles in order to achieve the image that you probably have in your head of your goal physique.

    EDIT: Lastly, your decision to cut a bit further seems reasonable to me. Keep the calorie deficit small and re-evaluate in 4 weeks or so, in my opinion.

    Very good info, thank you so much. This is serious business, haha! I once dated a bodybuilder-type and he was always doing the cutting and bulking thing. I didn't think much of it then but now I wish I'd asked him to teach me about it!

    It sounds like it's going to take a lot of patience to get to where I want to be, and I'm typically an impatient person, but I'm going to have to just tough it out. MFP is very helpful!
  • Sidesteal
    Sidesteal Posts: 5,510 Member
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    Also, note that simply being in a deficit is not all that is required in order to lose fat while preserving muscle mass (in most cases).

    ^ Absolutely agree with this.
  • LaurenAOK
    LaurenAOK Posts: 2,475 Member
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    If you want practical recommendations on whether you should bulk or cut, read this:
    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/initial-body-fat-and-body-composition-changes.html

    Also, note that simply being in a deficit is not all that is required in order to lose fat while preserving muscle mass (in most cases).

    Bookmarking the page! Thank you!
  • Glucocorticoid
    Glucocorticoid Posts: 867 Member
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    thanks for restating this Q!! i was initially wondering about articles and claims that "good" fats can help you burn fat easier... but after the responses i got.. i too, am pondering this!

    from what i gathered:

    to drop body fat% you must lose fat (and ultimately weight) by eating at a deficit and once you reach goal BF% you begin to eat a surplus to gain more muscle but you will also be putting fat back on...

    hmph... probably not what we wanted to hear. in a perfect world we could lose BF and gain muscle pound for pound,..

    poppycock!
    Oh dear god... this is pointless.
  • BigRich822
    BigRich822 Posts: 681
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    You can not build muscle while eating a deficit, it is not possible.

    Yes, I understand that. That wasn't really my question. What I'm asking is, if I'm trying to "tone up" - get rid of the excess fat, and have visible muscle - should I be eating at a deficit or not? Basically, should I be focusing more on getting rid of fat, or building muscle? Obviously my goal is to do both but I can't do them at the same time.

    Eat at a deficit and start hitting the weights. But like you said you have to pick one. I would personally start putting some muscle on and then you may gain a few pounds but it will be lean muscle. I dont know how you would feel about gaining some weight considering you were just trying to lose it. But then do another cut and you will have a good muscle base underneath.
  • overfences
    overfences Posts: 96 Member
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    Have you visited leangains.com? Ab fat is really stubborn and I know a lot of people on that site have had success with IF. Good luck!
  • hedwighigh
    hedwighigh Posts: 299
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    Would it work well if you ate at maintenance and created your deficit through exercise? Or do you have to eat at a deficit too?
  • hkatrobos
    hkatrobos Posts: 49
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    1) Lose more fat at the expense of delaying your lean muscle gains. You will probably lose a bit more weight and it will get difficult as you get leaner.

    2) Gain some muscle with the realization that you will gain some weight and you will gain some fat.

    kenny-- is this pointless too?
  • Glucocorticoid
    Glucocorticoid Posts: 867 Member
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    Would it work well if you ate at maintenance and created your deficit through exercise? Or do you have to eat at a deficit too?
    Generally speaking, it won't matter how the deficit is created (although it's not actually this clear-cut).

    But in most cases you should just create the deficit through your diet. Relatively speaking, exercise generally has a small effect on the rate of weight loss. Unless you're capable of literally hours upon hours of daily exercise, the "burn" you create will generally be small compared to the deficit you create through your diet. Because ultimately, in terms of weight loss, the deficit is what matters, not how many calories you burn (you can burn 1000 calories and then eat all of it back plus some more, and therefore be in a surplus).

    Which is not to say that exercise does not have benefits in a deficit (i.e. calorie partitioning, adherence to the diet, etc etc.).
  • Glucocorticoid
    Glucocorticoid Posts: 867 Member
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    1) Lose more fat at the expense of delaying your lean muscle gains. You will probably lose a bit more weight and it will get difficult as you get leaner.

    2) Gain some muscle with the realization that you will gain some weight and you will gain some fat.

    kenny-- is this pointless too?
    What I said was pointless was trying to explain what BF% means to you. Your post claiming that you cannot lower your BF% without losing fat is nonsense. You still cannot seem to grasp the concept of what bodyfat percentage means despite having it explained multiple times in the other thread. So I'm just going to link you to this article and hope for the best. At this point I don't even know if you're actually reading this.
    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/reducing-body-fat-percentage-by-gaining-muscle-qa.html
  • Going4Lean
    Going4Lean Posts: 1,077 Member
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    bump
  • ChrisGoldn
    ChrisGoldn Posts: 473 Member
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    Would it work well if you ate at maintenance and created your deficit through exercise? Or do you have to eat at a deficit too?
    Generally speaking, it won't matter how the deficit is created (although it's not actually this clear-cut).

    But in most cases you should just create the deficit through your diet. Relatively speaking, exercise generally has a small effect on the rate of weight loss. Unless you're capable of literally hours upon hours of daily exercise, the "burn" you create will generally be small compared to the deficit you create through your diet. Because ultimately, in terms of weight loss, the deficit is what matters, not how many calories you burn (you can burn 1000 calories and then eat all of it back plus some more, and therefore be in a surplus).

    Which is not to say that exercise does not have benefits in a deficit (i.e. calorie partitioning, adherence to the diet, etc etc.).

    This sounds awful familiar.... oh wait i know, lol from Lyle's RFL book!
  • Glucocorticoid
    Glucocorticoid Posts: 867 Member
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    Yes, but telling people to go buy and read a book usually does not work :P
  • hedwighigh
    hedwighigh Posts: 299
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    Would it work well if you ate at maintenance and created your deficit through exercise? Or do you have to eat at a deficit too?
    Generally speaking, it won't matter how the deficit is created (although it's not actually this clear-cut).

    But in most cases you should just create the deficit through your diet. Relatively speaking, exercise generally has a small effect on the rate of weight loss. Unless you're capable of literally hours upon hours of daily exercise, the "burn" you create will generally be small compared to the deficit you create through your diet. Because ultimately, in terms of weight loss, the deficit is what matters, not how many calories you burn (you can burn 1000 calories and then eat all of it back plus some more, and therefore be in a surplus).

    Which is not to say that exercise does not have benefits in a deficit (i.e. calorie partitioning, adherence to the diet, etc etc.).

    Well, let me give a more specific example. I eat 2000 calories and workout enough to where I burn 200-500 calories 5 times per week (not eating these calories back). Would this help in losing fat but decrease the amount of muscle lost with the fat? This would mean that I would be burning off at least 1000 calories to at most 2500 calories a week.... Now that's not enough to burn a whole pound of fat but I'm about 19% body fat while trying to reach 15%. So I figure it'll take me a little longer to get that lean.

    I'm fine with eating at a deficit, I've just noticed if I eat any less than maintenance on days I work out then I'm hungry.
  • dentedearmuffs1
    dentedearmuffs1 Posts: 34
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    bump
  • Glucocorticoid
    Glucocorticoid Posts: 867 Member
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    Would it work well if you ate at maintenance and created your deficit through exercise? Or do you have to eat at a deficit too?
    Generally speaking, it won't matter how the deficit is created (although it's not actually this clear-cut).

    But in most cases you should just create the deficit through your diet. Relatively speaking, exercise generally has a small effect on the rate of weight loss. Unless you're capable of literally hours upon hours of daily exercise, the "burn" you create will generally be small compared to the deficit you create through your diet. Because ultimately, in terms of weight loss, the deficit is what matters, not how many calories you burn (you can burn 1000 calories and then eat all of it back plus some more, and therefore be in a surplus).

    Which is not to say that exercise does not have benefits in a deficit (i.e. calorie partitioning, adherence to the diet, etc etc.).

    Well, let me give a more specific example. I eat 2000 calories and workout enough to where I burn 200-500 calories 5 times per week (not eating these calories back). Would this help in losing fat but decrease the amount of muscle lost with the fat? This would mean that I would be burning off at least 1000 calories to at most 2500 calories a week.... Now that's not enough to burn a whole pound of fat but I'm about 19% body fat while trying to reach 15%. So I figure it'll take me a little longer to get that lean.

    I'm fine with eating at a deficit, I've just noticed if I eat any less than maintenance on days I work out then I'm hungry.

    Without knowing more about you (i.e. stats, calories/macros, specifics of your training, dieting/training history, etc.), no one can really answer your question in good conscience.
  • hkatrobos
    hkatrobos Posts: 49
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    fair enough but i understand that any % is relative... and in this case it is weight. so... gain more weight and if it is not fat.. then your body fat % is reduced because you have more mass.. yadda yadda

    i think the main thing is that we want to drop an amount of BF% that is probably unrealistic for that approach and time frame. therefore... lose more weight (fat) while still strength training and eating enough not to lose LBM and once we reach an ideal BF% start with the serious muscle building.

    if i haven't gotten it... then i guess i'll just keep reading on until i do!!!


    sweet throne robe, good day sir!
  • baptiste565
    baptiste565 Posts: 590 Member
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    u should be eating at a deficit
  • Glucocorticoid
    Glucocorticoid Posts: 867 Member
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    fair enough but i understand that any % is relative... and in this case it is weight. so... gain more weight and if it is not fat.. then your body fat % is reduced because you have more mass.. yadda yadda
    Congrats, you've proven to me that you can actually read and you're not all just looks :drinker:
    i think the main thing is that we want to drop an amount of BF% that is probably unrealistic for that approach and time frame. therefore... lose more weight (fat) while still strength training and eating enough not to lose LBM and once we reach an ideal BF% start with the serious muscle building.

    Yes, you will have to pick a goal and likely cycle between bulking and cutting phases, and yes it will take patience, assuming you don't have the best genes (but if you did you probably would not be on here in the first place). However, read this thread carefully and realize that it takes more than just a deficit to preserve LBM while dieting (in most cases).

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