Reducing BF% - to eat at a deficit or not?

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  • charliebrooke08
    charliebrooke08 Posts: 82
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    This is where I am, too. I have been lifting for a couple of months and see the newbie gains, but I had been focusing on cutting weight, so I don't look too impressive yet. I am now at my goal weight and around 22% bf, but I would like to decrease that a bit more before I focus on bulking. Thanks for all the great advice!

    lol. you want to drop you BF more before bulking? why? you're just going to put it right back on. you can't get big and stay shredded. if you want to make muscle mass gains you have to be willing to put on some BF.

    Ok, maybe I should restate my goals. I am not looking to get bulky, per se. I want to look fit and athletic, so my purpose for lifting is not to look like a body builder. My reason for wanting to build muscle is to increase my metabolism--that and the fact that I am 45 years old and know I've lost mass over the years. My main goal, at the moment, anyway, is to eventually run distance, so maybe you guys can help me devise a plan that will help me accomplish my goals. Maybe my goals are a bit conflicting and I'm approaching this all wrong?

    I am not at all adverse to lifting heavy. I already lift as heavy as I can, and am looking to increase weight over time. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

    Distance running and gaining muscle don't exactly go hand in hand. Though looking fit might, depeding on what you believe that to be. I don't think I have a very good understanding of what you are going for. It seems though that you possibly have conflicting goals. What is your goal for what you would like to be able to physically DO? And what is your physical goal, aesthetical speaking?

    Yeah, I knew that distance running and gaining muscle were a bit contradictory. As I said, my main reasons for wanting to gain muscle are to improve my metabolism and look better. I also want to be stronger in general, but especially for running. Physically, my main goal is to fall in love with running, but I have also batted around the possibility of participating in a triathlon someday. So, I guess you could say that I want to do whatever I have an itch to do at the moment! My aesthetic goal has mostly been met. I wanted to get back into my small jeans, and I achieved that 10 ten pounds ago. Unfortunately, being 'skinny' (and that is NOT my goal--being fit and healthy is) does not mean that there aren't imperfections. I still have some cushioning around my middle that I'd like to whittle away, as well as some jiggle on my hips and rear end that I'd like to work on. BTW, if it matters, I am a lacto-ovo vegetarian and do struggle to meet my protein requirements some days, but in general, if I'm short, I will take a shot of whey protein.

    So, do you all recommend that I try to eat at maintenance, rather than at a deficit? Or should I eat above maintenance? This is where it gets really confusing for me. Thank you in advance for all of your help!

    I'm going to pm you.
  • Cocochickdeleted
    Cocochickdeleted Posts: 343 Member
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    Just FYI I eat at maintence and follow NROWL4W and I have lost a couple of pounds but dropped bodyfat%. I dont think you will need to drop below maintence to continue shedding bodyfat if you are lifting heavy. Try eating at maintence while lifting and see if your recompostition is reasonable enough for you. My diary is open i think if you want to see how I eat (not the greastest and I dont track every day, its just to have a general idea) and you can see on my profile page how my wt and bf% has changed while eating at these levels. I average 1800-2300 daily, sometimes more sometimes less. Since Dec my bf% has gone from 29.7% down to 19.4% as of today. I track this using the military body fat calculator found on fat2fitradio.com.

    This is really good to know! I am not opposed to eating more, but it may take a few days to get my brain wrapped around the concept of taking in more calories. I will check out your diary. Thanks!
  • wareagle8706
    wareagle8706 Posts: 1,090 Member
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    I like seeing who replies to all these things. Whole lotta blind leading the blind going on. OP take a second to look at who's advising you. I don't take diet or exercise advice from people's who's bodies don't represent the level of knowledge they're portraying themselves to have.

    It is definitely a lot of blind leading blind going on. I've also seen some people with pretty decent bodies give pretty terrible advice.
  • LaurenAOK
    LaurenAOK Posts: 2,475 Member
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    Ugh, this is why it's so confusing. People are saying basically opposite things and it's hard to know who's right. I think I'm just going to have to play around with it and see what works for me. Thanks for all the help everyone.
  • wareagle8706
    wareagle8706 Posts: 1,090 Member
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    http://getfitguy.quickanddirtytips.com/how-to-lose-fat-and-gain-muscle-at-the-same-time.aspx
  • qtiekiki
    qtiekiki Posts: 1,490 Member
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    Ugh, this is why it's so confusing. People are saying basically opposite things and it's hard to know who's right. I think I'm just going to have to play around with it and see what works for me. Thanks for all the help everyone.

    I guess even though the general concept is the same, different thing works for different people and people have different goals.
  • charliebrooke08
    charliebrooke08 Posts: 82
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    I like seeing who replies to all these things. Whole lotta blind leading the blind going on. OP take a second to look at who's advising you. I don't take diet or exercise advice from people's who's bodies don't represent the level of knowledge they're portraying themselves to have.

    It is definitely a lot of blind leading blind going on. I've also seen some people with pretty decent bodies give pretty terrible advice.

    Lemme know if you see any decent bodied or even worse good bodied people giving out bad advice, people just take their bad advice because they look good. That's the worst, it's so misleading.
  • mum23boys
    mum23boys Posts: 31
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    I'm curious about this too.
  • LaurenAOK
    LaurenAOK Posts: 2,475 Member
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    http://getfitguy.quickanddirtytips.com/how-to-lose-fat-and-gain-muscle-at-the-same-time.aspx

    Very interesting read. Thanks for the link!
  • Glucocorticoid
    Glucocorticoid Posts: 867 Member
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    http://getfitguy.quickanddirtytips.com/how-to-lose-fat-and-gain-muscle-at-the-same-time.aspx
    That link is misleading with it's title and claims. All that link describes is a very concise and poorly written version of a cyclical ketogenic diet. Of course you can transition between mass building and fat loss phases throughout the span of a week or two, but that does not mean you are gaining mass/losing fat at the same time. No one is disputing a cyclical approach, even if it's a weekly cyclical approach (at least I am not). Without getting into the flaws of that article, what the link describes is not really needed by most of the people asking the question (beginners, especially overfat beginners), simpler strategies will work just as well and be more efficient at their stage.

    There is little point in getting into a physiological argument here about the fact that muscle gain and fat loss have MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE requirements for the most part. The link I posted earlier already talked about some of this to a degree.

    LaurenAOK and whoever else was asking the question - the bottom line is that there is a reason why most bodybuilders transition between bulking and cutting cycles, and it's not because they like losing muscle mass when they cut, and neither is it because they like gaining fat when they bulk. There are ways to limit fat gain in a bulk and ways to preserve muscle mass in a cut, and if you are interested in learning more about that, I suggest you make another thread dedicated to it.

    If you don't want to take drugs, then quit looking for shortcuts because there aren't any. I know this is not what you want to hear, but it's the reality. You're going to be far more efficient by picking a goal instead of half-assing two goals. Lyle McDonald elaborates upon this point nicely so I will quote his article in full below:
    Getting Strong While Getting Lean – Q&A

    Question: I need your help. I am 37 year-old female about 128 lbs. with my last bodyfat at 18.7%. I lift 3 days a week, two with a trainer (who refers to me as a hard gainer). He continues my workouts @ 15 reps per set for all body parts with a decent amt of weight. I have not been able to budge my lean body mass/bodyfat for months. My diet is fairly clean but erratic (night shift physician) and typically i fall off the wagon and binge on a very large meal every several days, not bad food but lots of it…My goal is 17%. Should I use the rapid fat loss plan for 10 days (category 1)? My trainer says I dont eat enough carbs and will never get bigger/stronger without more carbs in my diet….Thoughts? I know how busy you are, it would really help me to get your expert opinion.

    Answer: Ok, there are really two issues at stake here. The first is that your trainer seems to be slightly clueless to the fact that gaining lots of muscle and strength is generally antithetical to the goal of getting lean. Can it be done? Sometimes. But for most people, picking one goal and then optimizing training and diet towards that goal generally works better than trying to do all things at once. Most people will simply end up spinning their wheels trying to do that.
    Put differently, if you want to get lean, you’re going to have to accept that you may not make any strength gains, or that they will be small. Aim to maintain your current strength while leaning out. If you want to get big and strong, then dieting is not the way to do it. You should optimize your diet and training towards that goal.
    Which brings me to problem two. I do not think you are a hardgainer; I think your trainer doesn’t know what he’s doing. Sets of 15 aren’t good for getting much stronger in the first place. Working in the 5-8 repetition range on heavy compound stuff with some supplemental work in high rep ranges works better. High rep sets have their place to be sure, getting really strong usually isn’t one of them. So my advice is this:
    Pick a single goal and work towards it.
    Find a trainer who knows what he’s doing when it comes to training.
    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/qa.html
  • NU2U
    NU2U Posts: 659 Member
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    Have you tried LeanGains..or Intermittent Fasting? They work WONDERS!!!

    And for all the anti LG/IF.....warning, my gunz are loaded and cocked :-)
  • kdiamond
    kdiamond Posts: 3,329 Member
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    Well I was eating at a deficit and doing HIIT when I went from 22% to 19% in 4 weeks. I've since upped to my TDEE and now at a maintence but lifting alot heavier and more. Still doing HIIT and running though. I've dropped weight even with my increase. I'll know first week of June if I've dropped anymore BF%.

    This ^^^^^^^^

    Slight deficit, weight training (NROLFW is great) 3x a week and HIIT 2-3 times a week. Keep your deficit days to your days off of lifting and eat at maintenance your days of lifting. Give it a good 4 weeks. You'll see changes. And please measure your food and make sure you're actually eating the right amount!
  • kdiamond
    kdiamond Posts: 3,329 Member
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    I like seeing who replies to all these things. Whole lotta blind leading the blind going on. OP take a second to look at who's advising you. I don't take diet or exercise advice from people's who's bodies don't represent the level of knowledge they're portraying themselves to have.

    OMG this is exactly what I am thinking 90% of the time I read responses. People, please don't give advice if it isn't PROVEN by yourself!!
  • NewMoi1
    NewMoi1 Posts: 36
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  • kelseyhere
    kelseyhere Posts: 1,123 Member
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    I think I would like to go with option 1 first. Try to get rid of some excess fat, THEN work on building muscle. Does that sound reasonable, or is it better to do it the other way around? I guess what I'm afraid of with that option is that I'll lose the fat, then eat at maintenance or even a slight surplus to gain muscle, but end up just gaining fat again.

    When you go into surplus eating you will gain fat along with the muscle. You will then go into another cutting phase later on to remove as much of the fat as possible. It's a constant battle where you gain fat and muscle, and you lose fat and muscle. Your goal is to minimize the fat gains during a bulk and minimize the lean losses during a cut. (EDIT: I'm generalizing a bit here, that previous sentence isn't universally true but I'm trying to make a point).

    If you do it correctly (no extreme surplusses or deficits, adequate macro intake, sufficient training stimulus) then you'll come out well ahead when you look at multiple cycles of bulking and cutting.

    It's not a one time thing, you will likely have to do a few cycles in order to achieve the image that you probably have in your head of your goal physique.

    EDIT: Lastly, your decision to cut a bit further seems reasonable to me. Keep the calorie deficit small and re-evaluate in 4 weeks or so, in my opinion.

    I strongly agree with this poster, based on personal experience and a lot of reading. I have similar stats to you- I'm 25, 5' 6" and 133 pounds. The number on the scale doesn't matter to me as much as how I look. I'm doing the same thing, trying to cut fat and gain muscle. Another similarity, I also do NROL4W and cardio in combination. When I started NROL4W I was eating a deficit and making slow strength gains. To get stronger, I started eating at maintenance but put on way more fat than I was happy with. I'm back eating at a deficit, and still able to get stronger because I keep my deficit small. Any more than a 300 calorie deficit and I start to feel crappy and weak.

    I would try a 300 calories and see where you are in a month. You may also consider changing HOW you are eating. I was eating three meals a day which made it difficult to stick to my calorie goal and feel satisfied at the same time. Now, I'm doing Lean Gains (which means I eat from 1 p.m.-10 p.m. then fast from 10 p.m. until lunch the next day). This style of eating seems to work better for my body and my fat is coming off faster now.

    A lot of these guys are giving you really good info about cutting vs. bulking- the important thing to remember is that no matter what you MUST EAT AT A DEFICIT TO LOSE FAT. Period. Now because you aren't probably trying to get as strong as most of these body building types, more likely you're just trying to look good in a swimsuit, then it is perfectly fine to eat at a deficit, again only if its small, and continue to lift. You may not gain as much muscle as if you were eating at maintenance, but I'm assuming that's OK with you and you'd rather have a flat stomach vs. squatting 200 lbs. Get where I'm going with this? Feel free to send me a personal message if you want more info.
  • anemoneprose
    anemoneprose Posts: 1,805 Member
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  • Topsking2010
    Topsking2010 Posts: 2,245 Member
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  • TabithaMichelle85
    TabithaMichelle85 Posts: 92 Member
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