I'm confused gaining muscle, deficits...what?!

tamtamzz
tamtamzz Posts: 142
in Fitness and Exercise
OK. I'm confused, and I'm wondering if someone can help me out with my confusion.

I have read that you cannot gain muscle while in a caloric deficit. I weigh about 10 lbs less then I did when I first started, but I look A LOT and feel a lot different. Before, I couldn't jump, and I couldn’t run. Now I run about four miles a day. I couldn't do a push up, but now I can do about 30, proper form military push ups, among other things I haven't been able to do since my early 20's. I still need to lose about 30 pounds, but you can see some muscle definition underneath.

Since muscle doesn't grow in a deficit, what the hell is going on!? I looked at pictures of myself when I was the same weight, and I see no definition. Was I bitten by a radio active spider? How did I become stronger?

Can someone break it down for me, or direct me to some literature so I can better understand?
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Replies

  • rollieorial
    rollieorial Posts: 11 Member
    Hi! Not an expert but I think that as long you take in proteins, you can grow muscle even when you're in a calorie deficit. I am doing the same thing you're doing and experiencing similar results and I think the fact that you are stronger means that you've gained some muscle mass.
  • paulsmisses
    paulsmisses Posts: 178
    Hi! Not an expert but I think that as long you take in proteins, you can grow muscle even when you're in a calorie deficit. I am doing the same thing you're doing and experiencing similar results and I think the fact that you are stronger means that you've gained some muscle mass.

    ^^^ this ^^^ sounds right to me!
  • Anayalata
    Anayalata Posts: 391 Member
    http://exercise.about.com/od/weightloss/f/losefatgainmusc.htm

    While in a deficit as a "newbie" you can gain a little muscle while losing fat. Not really anything noticeably great but some nonetheless.

    The main thing you're doing is developing lean tissue.
  • qtiekiki
    qtiekiki Posts: 1,490 Member
    Increasing strength does not equal to increasing muscle mass. You are losing body fat, therefore you are seeing your muscle definitions more. And maybe some newbie gain. That's my thought anyways.
  • Twiztedbeing
    Twiztedbeing Posts: 389
    I was told as well, that the reason it looks as though there may be muscle, is because the fat around it is being removed. Not 100% sure how correct I am on that but I believe that's what it was. I lost 9lb, see muscle in my arms but do not know where the fat came from, so it would make sense if it came from my arms.
  • damorzacon
    damorzacon Posts: 124 Member
    I'm actually in the same boat. I started lifting about a month ago and, depending on the day, I'm 4-6 pounds heavier than I was when I started BUT I've lost inches.

    You're still losing body fat so the muscle is able to show more. You'll continue to lose body fat and they'll appear to grow but what's really going on is you are gaining definition.

    Newbies to strength training are actually able to build a limited amount of muscle because their muscles aren't trained but not a lot.
  • rollieorial
    rollieorial Posts: 11 Member
    http://www.livestrong.com/article/362906-can-you-build-muscle-on-a-calorie-deficit/

    this might help a bit. :)
  • tamtamzz
    tamtamzz Posts: 142
    Since I'm just starting out will I eventually bottom out in terms of strength? Let's say I can do 50 push ups. Will I not be able to do, say, 100 push ups if I do not start eating with a caloric surplus?

    For example, my grandfather practices yoga. He has for many, many years, long before it became fashionable. He can plank for God knows how long. He's a small man, and a touch on the sinewy side. My brother on the other hand, is muscular; as in weight lifting muscular. His muscles are MUCH larger than my grandfather's, but cannot stay in the plank position for no more than a minute or two.

    My brother has larger muscles, so why can't he plank (and a bunch of other stuff) like my grandfather?

    Is there a difference between a strong muscle and a large muscle? I'd prefer a strong muscle.
  • crisanderson27
    crisanderson27 Posts: 5,343 Member
    Hi! Not an expert but I think that as long you take in proteins, you can grow muscle even when you're in a calorie deficit. I am doing the same thing you're doing and experiencing similar results and I think the fact that you are stronger means that you've gained some muscle mass.

    ^^^ this ^^^ sounds right to me!

    These would be incorrect.

    Strength is directly tied to your nervous system. The actual size of your muscles really only gives you potential. When you begin working out...or otherwise begin performing new exercises...your brain becomes better able to engage your muscles....thus improving your strength. This is called neuromuscular adaptation. It does lead to a small increase in size...but not enough to really mention. The major contributor to size when lifting and in a caloric deficit...is glycogen storage. Picture your muscles as sponges...and glycogen as water (it mostly is). Get the picture? Glycogen is fuel for your muscles. When your new workout surpasses the energy drain of the old...your body shuttles more glycogen to the muscles...similar to adding fuel tanks to an offroad vehicle to increase its range.

    Thus...your improved strength...and larger muscles.

    :)

    Oh...protein. In a caloric deficit...protein will help to contribute to keeping the muscles you have...but only in very rare circumstances will you gain muscle in a deficit...protein or no.
  • taso42
    taso42 Posts: 8,980 Member
    You can gain strength without gaining muscle. The muscle doesn't have to become larger for it to become stronger. That said, when you are first starting out, it is possible to gain some muscle, even in a deficit. They call it the beginner effect.

    Just keep on doing what you're doing. Obviously it's working - you're getting fitter AND leaner! YEAH!
  • steve1686
    steve1686 Posts: 346 Member
    Since you're new to weight training you can actually gain muscle while losing fat. Enjoy it while it lasts because eventually it will stall and you can only do one or the other.. You can also get stronger without actually gaining muscle mass.
  • Rae6503
    Rae6503 Posts: 6,294 Member
    You can gain strength without gaining muscle. Some people can gain a small amount of muscle while on a deficit, those new to lifting, those returning to lifting, and overweight people. BUT you have to be doing heavy weight lifting.

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html
  • Jersey_Devil
    Jersey_Devil Posts: 4,142 Member
    also could be newbie gains. they don't stick around for long.
  • Twiztedbeing
    Twiztedbeing Posts: 389
    http://www.livestrong.com/article/362906-can-you-build-muscle-on-a-calorie-deficit/

    this might help a bit. :)

    I read this and had a question.

    They said with you being on a deficit, your body would be under more stress.

    But what if, say in my case before I joined this site and before I started eating healthy, I was eating less than what my deficit is now? Would that mean that my body would actually be less stressed? Not that it would probably help all that much with gaining much muscle but just thought I would bring it up.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
    What Cris, Taso and Steve said!
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
    What Cris, Taso and Steve said!

    What he said!
  • davidr730
    davidr730 Posts: 126 Member
    The term deficit is thrown around loosely. Technically a deficit is when your intake of calories or nutrients are below your BEE. (This is the minimum calories needed to sustain normal body function. ) The BEE is determined by using the Harris Benedict Equation. Once you have that as a base, you should NEVER drop below those calories unless under the advise of a physician. Adding your activity will give you additional calories based on how active and how frequently active you are. This is referred to as total calories. Any caloric intake that falls between the BEE and the total calories is safe for weight loss and will still allow for muscle gain provided your protein intake is adequate and contains all of your Essential amino acids.

    Here is a link to determine your BEE and total calories.
    http://healthylivingwithdestiny.com/harris-benedict-equation/
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
    The term deficit is thrown around loosely. Technically a deficit is when your intake of calories or nutrients are below your BEE. (This is the minimum calories needed to sustain normal body function. ) The BEE is determined by using the Harris Benedict Equation. Once you have that as a base, you should NEVER drop below those calories unless under the advise of a physician. Adding your activity will give you additional calories based on how active and how frequently active you are. This is referred to as total calories. Any caloric intake that falls between the BEE and the total calories is safe for weight loss and will still allow for muscle gain provided your protein intake is adequate and contains all of your Essential amino acids.

    Here is a link to determine your BEE and total calories.
    http://healthylivingwithdestiny.com/harris-benedict-equation/

    A deficit is when you are eating below your TDEE (Total Daily Energy Expenditure). The harris benedict equation gives an estimate of someone's BMR (Basic Metabolic Rate) which is the calories you need to keep your body working with absolutely no activity - it is the basis for calculating your TDEE but the deficit is the amount below TDEE not BMR.
  • lglg11
    lglg11 Posts: 344 Member
    What Cris, Taso and Steve said!

    What he said!

    What they said !
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
    The term deficit is thrown around loosely. Technically a deficit is when your intake of calories or nutrients are below your BEE. (This is the minimum calories needed to sustain normal body function. ) The BEE is determined by using the Harris Benedict Equation. Once you have that as a base, you should NEVER drop below those calories unless under the advise of a physician. Adding your activity will give you additional calories based on how active and how frequently active you are. This is referred to as total calories. Any caloric intake that falls between the BEE and the total calories is safe for weight loss and will still allow for muscle gain provided your protein intake is adequate and contains all of your Essential amino acids.

    Here is a link to determine your BEE and total calories.
    http://healthylivingwithdestiny.com/harris-benedict-equation/

    A deficit is when you are eating below your TDEE (Total Daily Energy Expenditure). The harris benedict equation gives an estimate of someone's BMR (Basic Metabolic Rate) which is the calories you need to keep your body working with absolutely no activity - it is the basis for calculating your TDEE but the deficit is the amount below TDEE not BMR.

    I agree with Sara. I also visited the link you posted as I thought there was something that BEE stood for that I was not aware of but all I found there was BMR and the harris benedict calulators with which I was already familiar. Thus, I don't understand under what circumstances you are saying you can gain muscle, however, unless you are obese, a newbie to lifting or an athlete returning to training after a layoff, you cannot gain muscle (meaning grow new muscle cells) in a calorie deficit from TDEE. If you think that you can, I would like to see your proof source.
  • teez52
    teez52 Posts: 104 Member
    The term deficit is thrown around loosely. Technically a deficit is when your intake of calories or nutrients are below your BEE. (This is the minimum calories needed to sustain normal body function. ) The BEE is determined by using the Harris Benedict Equation. Once you have that as a base, you should NEVER drop below those calories unless under the advise of a physician. Adding your activity will give you additional calories based on how active and how frequently active you are. This is referred to as total calories. Any caloric intake that falls between the BEE and the total calories is safe for weight loss and will still allow for muscle gain provided your protein intake is adequate and contains all of your Essential amino acids.

    Here is a link to determine your BEE and total calories.
    http://healthylivingwithdestiny.com/harris-benedict-equation/

    Not sure what you are talking about with BEE, but sounds like your mixing BMR and TDEE. BMR is what your body uses nautrally through the day just to survive assuming that you do NOTHING. TDEE is what you use based on your activity level. Eating a deficit is eating below your TDEE, usually it's recommended to eat around a 15-20% deficit to start with and go from there.

    You can get what are noob gains during your first bit of lifting, but your body generally doesn't have the calories to build more muscle while you are on a deficit. You need a surplus of calories to build muscle.
  • davidr730
    davidr730 Posts: 126 Member
    The TDEE is the equation plus energy for exercise. It is what I was calling the "total calories". Your BEE is the amount if energy your bode would require if you never got out of bed. The FDA defines a "defcit" as anything below ones BEE, ie the amount of energy for normal body function before activity. This is a great example of the term being thrown around loosely. One should never be blow the energy required for normal bodily function, lest their body thinks it is starving and greatly adjusts the metabolism., often referred to as "starvation Mode". Anything above the BEE but below the TDEE is safe for weight loss.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
    And BEE stands for??? I've not seen the term or abreviation used before. I have seen BMR which is what is descibed on the site you published a link to. Also, your description seems to be of BMR or Basal Metabolic Rate. So, exactly what does BEE represent?
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
    The TDEE is the equation plus energy for exercise. It is what I was calling the "total calories". Your BEE is the amount if energy your bode would require if you never got out of bed. The FDA defines a "defcit" as anything below ones BEE, ie the amount of energy for normal body function before activity. This is a great example of the term being thrown around loosely. One should never be blow the energy required for normal bodily function, lest their body thinks it is starving and greatly adjusts the metabolism., often referred to as "starvation Mode". Anything above the BEE but below the TDEE is safe for weight loss.

    If that is the definition you are using, that is wrong. A deficit is anything below your total expenditure. You cannot gain on a deficit (below TDEE) unless you are a newbie or are signficantly overweight. The BMR (or BEE as you call it) has nothing to do with this.

    Edited for typos
  • crisanderson27
    crisanderson27 Posts: 5,343 Member
    Anything above the BEE but below the TDEE is safe for weight loss.

    In a net measure, yes.

    Also, anything below the TDEE, even if you're staying above the BMR (assuming that's what you mean by BEE), still won't provide the proper triggers for muscle gain.
  • mcarter99
    mcarter99 Posts: 1,666 Member
    And there is no magic about BMR as far as intake. You absolutely can eat below your BMR, entirely healthily, if you are overfat.

    Regarding Uncle Yoga and Brother Muscley, I suspect there are a lot of pumped up gym rats without much strength and super-strong yogis without much bulk.
  • crisanderson27
    crisanderson27 Posts: 5,343 Member
    And there is no magic about BMR as far as intake. You absolutely can eat below your BMR, entirely healthily, if you are overfat.

    Regarding Uncle Yoga and Brother Muscley, I suspect there are a lot of pumped up gym rats without much strength and super-strong yogis without much bulk.

    And who determines overfat? The person who had issues judging how much to eat in the first place?

    Safer, and far more responsible to just say 'best not to do it' in my opinion.

    And, 'Uncle Yoga/Brother Muscley'??

    Clarify please.
  • tamtamzz
    tamtamzz Posts: 142

    And, 'Uncle Yoga/Brother Muscley'??

    Clarify please.

    I posted that my brother is muscular (Brother Muscley), but cannot plank as long as my grandfather who practices yoga, and has for many years (Uncle Yoga, who should be Grandfather Yoga).

    The question is a couple posts back. Mcarter99 was the only one who actually bothered answering the question. Everyone since has been too wrapped up in BMR, BEE, TDEE, FDA, and whatever else to notice haha.
  • crisanderson27
    crisanderson27 Posts: 5,343 Member

    And, 'Uncle Yoga/Brother Muscley'??

    Clarify please.

    I posted that my brother is muscular (Brother Muscley), but cannot plank as long as my grandfather who practices yoga, and has for many years (Uncle Yoga, who should be Grandfather Yoga).

    The question is a couple posts back. Mcarter99 was the only one who actually bothered answering the question. Everyone since has been too wrapped up in BMR, BEE, TDEE, FDA, and whatever else to notice haha.

    Ahh, gotcha! I must have missed it while I was at work lol. I posted my initial reply on my phone :).
  • crisanderson27
    crisanderson27 Posts: 5,343 Member
    Since I'm just starting out will I eventually bottom out in terms of strength? Let's say I can do 50 push ups. Will I not be able to do, say, 100 push ups if I do not start eating with a caloric surplus?

    For example, my grandfather practices yoga. He has for many, many years, long before it became fashionable. He can plank for God knows how long. He's a small man, and a touch on the sinewy side. My brother on the other hand, is muscular; as in weight lifting muscular. His muscles are MUCH larger than my grandfather's, but cannot stay in the plank position for no more than a minute or two.

    My brother has larger muscles, so why can't he plank (and a bunch of other stuff) like my grandfather?

    Is there a difference between a strong muscle and a large muscle? I'd prefer a strong muscle.

    Found it!!

    My first reply in this thread definitely covers that answer :). And for the record, your brother has the potential to be far stronger than your grandfather, but the actual bodyweight comes into play as well. Strength to weight ratios, etc.

    Muscle is heavy.

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