Starvation "zone"

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vklebanova
vklebanova Posts: 152 Member
I know it's been said over and over that you can't consume less than 1200 cals a day

Anyone have a specific number ( or % of weight or something ) for when your body actually enters starvation mode?

Tried to do some research on this but can't come up with anything specific.

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  • nuclearbanana
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    Physicist here! You can TOTALLY trust my knowledge of basic human biochemistry and metabolic systems! Now, if another, more specialized, actual scientist wants to correct me at all, they're more than welcome to.

    The term 'starvation zone' actually has no meaning to me because I'm not sure what function or process it's supposed to apply to, so I'll just arbitrarily assign it to a certain process. Let me describe this for you.

    Your body always has sugar in it. Sugar is very, very important to have always. It's required to maintain basic human function, e.g. your brain takes up about ~25%. Greedy thing. Glucose does its job well, it's the thing your body will use up first, because it's easy. Now, if you're eating enough carbohydrates or sugars to keep up with its demand, your glucose will burn out. That's when your body starts burning glycogen, not it's first choice of fuel, but it'll keep a human running for some good, solid hours.

    Now, when a person runs out of their glycogen reserves is where all the fun happens. This is when your body will actually start to use up its fat reserves. Now, this seems great, right? You're burning fat! Losing weight while keeping up muscle mass! Well, sure, yeah. Long distance runners/swimmers/awesomely crazy athletes tend to burn through their glycogen reserves and start burning fat whilst exercising. That's okay if they're eating right, and if they aren't eating right, they wouldn't be awesome athletes.

    The issue is that your brain absolutely CANNOT use your fatty tissue as a source of energy. While your muscles and organs are doing fine, even if your organ's protective layer of fats are being burned up, your brain is starving because it doesn't have the sugar it needs to operate. Thus, the brain will actually force the liver to make fuel for its needs while the liver processes fatty tissue. Within three days of not feeding yourself, you're actually going to start burning pure muscle.

    According to a grumpy biochemist I know, after a period of burning fat, your body begins to break down both muscle tissue and fatty tissue.

    Now, this is a very short term description. Over a long period of time, like in anorexia, a person is restricting themselves of calories, nutrients and minerals to function properly. I guess that's also what people apply the term 'starvation mode' to. The human body does what it takes to survive, and if it's not getting enough external nutrition over time, it'll start to burn up itself, restricting certain processes and in result get weaker. Brain function changes, bone density decreases, a person gets anemia, etc.

    Just, don't starve yourself over a period of time. :x Not always having enough glucose in your blood can cause adverse side effects, like metabolic acidosis, of which I was just informed of. Will keep posting more knowledge even if you don't want me to.

    TL;DR I'll apply 'starvation mode' as consistently not giving your body enough to maintain glucose reserves and proper nutrients. If done over a long period of time, it's consistent with anorexia nervosa and will cause muscle and bone degeneration and will make you feel awful and groggy in general. If you're exercising or fasting for a day which causes you to run out of glycogen reserves, you'll start burning fat. Consult your doctor?
  • Bob314159
    Bob314159 Posts: 1,178 Member
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    Thanks for a nice balanced explanation.

    I've gone on 3 day water only fasts with no problem- but I'm always afraid to say that in MFP, for fear of being told that I must have died already
  • Helloitsdan
    Helloitsdan Posts: 5,564 Member
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    Physicist here! You can TOTALLY trust my knowledge of basic human biochemistry and metabolic systems! Now, if another, more specialized, actual scientist wants to correct me at all, they're more than welcome to.

    The term 'starvation zone' actually has no meaning to me because I'm not sure what function or process it's supposed to apply to, so I'll just arbitrarily assign it to a certain process. Let me describe this for you.

    Your body always has sugar in it. Sugar is very, very important to have always. It's required to maintain basic human function, e.g. your brain takes up about ~25%. Greedy thing. Glucose does its job well, it's the thing your body will use up first, because it's easy. Now, if you're eating enough carbohydrates or sugars to keep up with its demand, your glucose will burn out. That's when your body starts burning glycogen, not it's first choice of fuel, but it'll keep a human running for some good, solid hours.

    Now, when a person runs out of their glycogen reserves is what I'll call 'starvation mode'. This is when your body will actually start to use up its fat reserves. Now, this seems great, right? You're burning fat! Losing weight while keeping up muscle mass! Well, sure, yeah. Long distance runners/swimmers/awesomely crazy athletes tend to burn through their glycogen reserves and start burning fat whilst exercising. That's okay if they're eating right, and if they aren't eating right, they wouldn't be awesome athletes.

    The issue is that your brain absolutely CANNOT use your fatty tissue as a source of energy. While your muscles and organs are doing fine, even if your organ's protective layer of fats are being burned up, your brain is starving because it doesn't have the sugar it needs to operate. Thus, the brain will actually force the liver to make fuel for its needs while the liver processes fatty tissue. Within three days of not feeding yourself, you're actually going to start burning pure muscle.

    According to a grumpy biochemist I know, after a period of burning fat, your body begins to break down both muscle tissue and fatty tissue.

    Now, this is a very short term description. Over a long period of time, like in anorexia, a person is restricting themselves of calories, nutrients and minerals to function properly. I guess that's also what people apply the term 'starvation mode' to. The human body does what it takes to survive, and if it's not getting enough external nutrition over time, it'll start to burn up itself, restricting certain processes and in result get weaker. Brain function changes, bone density decreases, a person gets anemia, etc.

    Just, don't starve yourself over a period of time. :x Not always having enough glucose in your blood can cause adverse side effects, like metabolic acidosis, of which I was just informed of. Will keep posting more knowledge even if you don't want me to.

    Where do ketones and gluconeogenesis come into play?

    Starvation mode/response etc is the lack of food for 3+ days.
    Its lack of food.

    What OP is probably looking for is metabolic slowdown.
  • Sidesteal
    Sidesteal Posts: 5,510 Member
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    I know it's been said over and over that you can't consume less than 1200 cals a day

    Anyone have a specific number ( or % of weight or something ) for when your body actually enters starvation mode?

    Tried to do some research on this but can't come up with anything specific.

    If you're asking because you want to know how to apply this, I wouldn't worry about any arbitrary calorie value as a threshold for "starvation mode". It's a term that gets thrown around recklessly and I would really just not worry about it.

    I DO think you should seek to properly nourish yourself, both through intelligent food choices, AND by simply eating enough food.

    A good STARTING POINT for most people would be 20% under TDEE.

    Don't know your TDEE? Check out various estimation tools online, or read this thread:
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=121703981
  • vklebanova
    vklebanova Posts: 152 Member
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    My thing is this - I usually consume about 1200 cals a day- this includes snacking and what not and my diet is normally balanced in terms of all the nutrients I take in.I love fruits, veggies, and all lean sources of protein (turkey, chicken, salmon.. etc.) I however, just generally don't enjoy high calorie foods and when I do eat them - I eat very little because they don't make me feel well or as great as my healthy foods do.

    Now when I add exercise to the equation - I usually don't consume much more food, because I physically can't otherwise I will get nausea and that defeats the whole purpose of eating. So there are days where I net like 600-800 cals.

    Is my body in "starvation mode" ?
  • nuclearbanana
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    Where do ketones and gluconeogenesis come into play?

    Starvation mode/response etc is the lack of food for 3+ days.
    Its lack of food.

    What OP is probably looking for is metabolic slowdown.

    Ketone bodies fuel the brain as the liver is processing fats. I don't know much about gluconeogenesis, from what I can remember it occurs before the body resorts to fatty acids and proteins as fuel. More time spent on research databases.

    Metabolic slowdown? Wouldn't that just be like... I dunno, anorexia? :x
  • nuclearbanana
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    Is my body in "starvation mode" ?
    If you're feeling worried or malaise, why don't you ask a doctor? They'd be infinitely more helpful and far less erroneous with dealing with your health than an internet forum would be, right?
  • Sidesteal
    Sidesteal Posts: 5,510 Member
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    Where do ketones and gluconeogenesis come into play?

    Starvation mode/response etc is the lack of food for 3+ days.
    Its lack of food.

    What OP is probably looking for is metabolic slowdown.

    Ketone bodies fuel the brain as the liver is processing fats. I don't know much about gluconeogenesis, from what I can remember it occurs before the body resorts to fatty acids and proteins as fuel. More time spent on research databases.

    Metabolic slowdown? Wouldn't that just be like... I dunno, anorexia? :x

    My understanding is that In the absence of enough carbohydrates to provide the brain with glucose, the body converts proteins to glucose via gluconeogenesis. This is why low carb dieting isn't necessarily harmful.

    Typically when people use starvation mode (in my opinion) they are referring to the metabolism slowing down and not an actual physiological starvation response.
  • Sidesteal
    Sidesteal Posts: 5,510 Member
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    My thing is this - I usually consume about 1200 cals a day- this includes snacking and what not and my diet is normally balanced in terms of all the nutrients I take in.I love fruits, veggies, and all lean sources of protein (turkey, chicken, salmon.. etc.) I however, just generally don't enjoy high calorie foods and when I do eat them - I eat very little because they don't make me feel well or as great as my healthy foods do.

    Now when I add exercise to the equation - I usually don't consume much more food, because I physically can't otherwise I will get nausea and that defeats the whole purpose of eating. So there are days where I net like 600-800 cals.

    Is my body in "starvation mode" ?

    You are probably not in "starvation mode". However, this doesn't necessarily mean that 1200 calories is the proper intake for you.
  • Helloitsdan
    Helloitsdan Posts: 5,564 Member
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    OP what is your TDEE or maintenance calories?
  • nuclearbanana
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    My understanding is that In the absence of enough carbohydrates to provide the brain with glucose, the body converts proteins to glucose via gluconeogenesis. This is why low carb dieting isn't necessarily harmful.

    Typically when people use starvation mode (in my opinion) they are referring to the metabolism slowing down and not an actual physiological starvation response.

    Ha, I clearly remember being pounded into my head that over abundant glucose could be stored as lipids, I don't ever recall the reverse process ever being thought of as humanly possible until recently. It's always been about it breaking down into Acetyl-CoA, but I've stumbled across a marvelous article dealing with gluconeogenesis from fatty acids. Wouldn't ever want to memorize that cycle, looks worse than Kreb's. :| But there's evidence for it!

    I thought it was a general rule that you want to avoid burning protein? :x

    My main confusion stems from this: if you're disrupting any metabolic process in your body, your body is stressing about maintaining homeostasis. If that's happening over a long period of time, then I have no idea what's going on if you're not malnourished or if you're not over-exercising in an otherwise healthy human (speaking of diets and exercise, here).
  • tigersword
    tigersword Posts: 8,059 Member
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    Gluconeogensis is when the body converts amino acids and fatty acids into glucose, generally during fasting periods, or for storage purposes. Remember, the body can store fatty acids, but can't store amino acids, so if there is an excess of amino acids, they are converted to glucose for storage.

    As for the glucose-->glycogen-->fat burning order, that's not totally accurate. The body is actually using all 3 metabolic pathways simultaneously, in fact, glucose is required in order to burn fat. The body can't burn fat without it, which again, in the case of a low carb diet, that's where gluconeogenesis comes in. Current activity dictates which metabolic system the majority of the energy comes from, fat or glycogen.
  • nuclearbanana
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    Current activity dictates which metabolic system the majority of the energy comes from, fat or glycogen.
    In the case of heavy exercise vs a sedentary life style, which processes takes priority? When entering a mode of starvation, does each method of maintaining glucose levels not maintain priority? In my understanding, all three processes listed are used, it's just that one takes more priority over the others depending on the state of the person. At which point in the breaking down of fatty acids is glucose required? Just general body function that requires glucose as fuel to begin with that makes fuel to keep making fuel?

    Sorry, I just would like to know more. :x
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
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    Starvation mode is probably the most mis-used term on this site. When people are talking about starvation mode they are talking about:

    1) metabolic adaptation or slowdown and/or
    2) burning muscle rather than fat.

    There is no one point for either where you are not and then suddenly are, rather it is a more linear development that actually occurs when people are losing weight.

    As you lose weight your metabolism slows down and you lose lean body mass automatically. There are a bunch of contra-dictory studies out thre that indicate the rate of this occuring outside normal weigh loss.

    Assuning that the objective is generally to lose as little lean body mass (which includes muscle) as possible while keeping your metabolism as high as possible, in my opinion, the best way to do this is to eat enough protein and resistance train. Your body needs a good amount of protein to do this and also needs a minimum amount of dietary fats and fibre to function well, as well as getting the appropriate micronutrients. The lower the calories and the larger the deficit, the harder it is to do.

    In summary, aim for a reasonable deficit, get a good balanced diet which has a good amount of protein and fats and is nutrient rich, resistance train, and you will mitigate the two effects above as much as possible.