Needing help with lead muscle gaining...

TheTrimTim · July 2012

Hello there everyone!

I hope you can help me. I'm looking for some advice of training routines, diet and food supplements.

I started exercising and working out at the end of March 2012. I'm 39 years old and 5'11" tall and at this time, I weighed just over 81 kg (12 st 10 lbs / 179 lbs) and had a somewhat rounded stomach and a 36" waist, with around 23% body fat. Over the past few months, I've joined a gym and began doing some classes (like Circuits, Body Pump and the like). These are obviously a mixture of cardio and weight work. At the moment, I'm doing 3 to 4 classes a week (around 2.5 to 3 hours of exercise time). Initially my main focus was losing extra weight and losing a few inches off my stomach.

As of the beginning of July 2012 (3 months later), I weighed 68.6 kg (10 st 11 lbs / 151 lbs), had a 32" waist and around 17%-18% body fat, and in the past few weeks, I've pretty much plateaued at this weight.

I've now got to the point where I want to begin to build more muscle, in fact not necessarily bulk up resulting in increasing my weight too much but continue to tone up and have lean muscle.

I have made a rookie's mistake by purchasing, what I'm sure you will say are expensive supplements. Specifically I have bought:

- LA Muscle Fat Stripper, Six Pack Pill, Norateen Heavyweight II, MAN, and Horney Goat Weed and Catuaba.
- Real Nutrition Muscle Snacks BUILD Bars
- Maximuscle Promax Meal Bars, CLA-1000, Promax Diet Bars, and Thermobol Caffeine-Free
- High5 Zero Electrolyte Hydration Tablets - Xtreme

In addition, for what it's worth, I also use a Slendertone System Abs (which I use probably 4 times a week) and 66Fit Advanced Wobble Cushion.

Good choices or bad, expensive or not, using these combined with a better diet and exercise over the past 3 months have made a change.

Speaking of diet, I've been eating quite differently too, now consuming around 1500 calories on a non-exercise day, and perhaps 2000 calories on an exercise day. On an average day, I eat around 40% protein (120g-140g), 40% carbs (110-120g) and 20% fat (45g-55g). Attached is a typical daily food intake.

4434d1342263348-newbie-needing-help-lean-muscle-food_diary.jpg

4434d1342263348-newbie-needing-help-lean-muscle-food_diary.jpg

Next week I'm doing to start taking Maximuscle's CLA-1000, Promax Diet Bars and Thermobol Caffeine-Free capsules daily and High5 Zero Electrolyte Hydration Tablets - Xtreme during exercise, all of which I've already bought.

I guess that's my history and where I am today.

So I'm looking for some advice on how I can increase my lean muscle and get much more definition into my body. I didn't really want to but I've uploaded a couple of photos of me too so you can see physically where I am today.

4433d1342263342-newbie-needing-help-lean-muscle-me01.jpg

4433d1342263342-newbie-needing-help-lean-muscle-me01.jpg

I'd like suggestions on:

- What supplements I should take (however I'm not a fan of milk shakes so I might have a problem with Whey supplements),
- Whether the exercise I'm doing is enough to get a leaner more defined body, or whether I need to hit the weights hard as well/instead (again I'm not a huge fan of spending hours lifting weights and enjoy the classes much more),
- How many times a week I should exercise,
- What changes I should make to my diet, if any,
- And anything else.

Many thanks in advance for your time.

TheTrimTim · July 2012

Let me go back a step though if I can. I've been researching more and I think I need to re-think my goals. In the end, I want lean muscle but I do have at least a couple of inches of excess tummy fat. Am I right in thinking that if I want to get to a point where my abs are visible, then I need to loose that tummy fat first? If so, I guess I need to keep with the cardio classes I'm doing and keep a limit on my calories intake, is just right?

Sidesteal · July 2012

The problem with further attempts at cutting is that at 5'10 and ~150, you don't really have the real estate to keep getting smaller, unless your goal physique is quite small.

Do you have a good idea as to what you want to look like?

It's likely that you're going to need to do some bulking and cutting cycles to get where you ultimately want to end up.

TheTrimTim · July 2012

Do you have a good idea as to what you want to look like?

Interesting question... and this is confusing me even more now. I do, and I don't. I don't have a specific body shape in mind. I don't want to be "body builder huge" but as toned as I can be. Think Daniel Craig's beach scene in Casino Royale I guess.

RuthieCass · July 2012

I've now got to the point where I want to begin to build more muscle, in fact not necessarily bulk up resulting in increasing my weight too much but continue to tone up and have lean muscle.

Building more muscle generally involves bulking and gaining weight. This weight gain will be a mixture of muscle and fat (which is why those who want to gain muscle and be lean have to cycle cutting and bulking periods.). So I think you will have to make a choice between gaining weight or not building muscle. Because, unless you are aided by drugs, it will be hard to do both.

I have made a rookie's mistake by purchasing, what I'm sure you will say are expensive supplements. Specifically I have bought:
...

Probably not necessary. Virtually all of your success will come from your training plus non-supplemental diet. You lost weight from the deficit, not from the supplements. You maintain muscle mass by eating a decent amount of protein, not from some supplement. I don't know enough about the supplements to make a deep comment on them, and it may not hurt. But, honestly, I'd suggest you save the money and use it for some sessions with a good personal trainer.

So I'm looking for some advice on how I can increase my lean muscle and get much more definition into my body.

These two goals can be in conflict. I'd suggest picking one to work at at a time.

- What supplements I should take (however I'm not a fan of milk shakes so I might have a problem with Whey supplements),

Maybe a fish oil supplement. If you can't get enough protein, vitamin d, and calcium from your regular diet, you may need to take a supplement for those. IMO, most other supp's are a waste of money,

- Whether the exercise I'm doing is enough to get a leaner more defined body, or whether I need to hit the weights hard as well/instead (again I'm not a huge fan of spending hours lifting weights and enjoy the classes much more),

If you want more definition or more muscles, you will certainly need to hit the weights more and harder. I doubt those classes provide you with enough strength training to gain much muscle (not that they don't have other benefits). You can work with a trainer who can give you some "superset" routines to make your workouts more efficient. You will probably see results doing weights 3X per week 30-45 mins. Again there will be some trade off here. You will have to decide whether you dislike weight training more than you like the idea of more/bigger muscles.

- How many times a week I should exercise,

Depends on you. I would say have at least 1-2 rest days per week. Have at least one rest day between weight training sessions. And make sure your diet accounts for any exercise, cardio or otherwise. 3-4 hrs of cardio per week on top of weight training would be ok as long as your diet is sufficient. But some people want to minimize time working out, so they cut back on some cardio.

Speaking of diet, I've been eating quite differently too, now consuming around 1500 calories on a non-exercise day, and perhaps 2000 calories on an exercise day. On an average day, I eat around 40% protein (120g-140g), 40% carbs (110-120g) and 20% fat (45g-55g). Attached is a typical daily food intake.
....
- What changes I should make to my diet, if any,

Couldn't view the example since I'm not a member of that forum. But you will lose more weight sticking to this diet since it seems to be less than your TDEE. I'd also recommend you increase your protein a bit. General recommendation is 1.1-1.5 g per lb of lean body mass, so 150-180 g of protein would be better. If you want to do a cyclical diet, I think you should hold the protein constant, and focus more on cycling carbs. And again, if you do decide to gain muscle (and thus weight), you will need to increase your calories overall. If you are afraid to gain much wait, you could just try increasing your calories to your TDEE and lifting heavy. Your results might be good enough to make you stop there. Try it out for a few months and see how it goes.

- And anything else.

Read these articles:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/the-baseline-diet-part-1.html
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/the-baseline-diet-part-2.html
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/muscle-gain-mistakes.html

and more..
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain

3laine75 · July 2012

can't offer you alot of advice on the gym routines (new to it myself) but at 5'10" and male it doesn't sound like you should be losing much more weight to me and 1500 sounds like way too little calories to build any lean mass.

TheTrimTim · July 2012

Thanks everyone for your comments so far. Very helpful, as always. I've done some re-work on my MFP goals and this is my current feeling:

What do you think?

Also I know it might be a bit too "micro managing" but can you recommend how my fat should be split amoungst the fat groups, and whether the nutrient levels (e.g. sodium, etc.) are right.

I'd also like to clarify... I'm happy to gain weight, gain size, but I still just want to fit until my size 32" trousers. Perhaps I'm confusing weight gain with unwelcome fat gain. I assume these goals are possible.

I'm thinking I will keep up at least some of the classes I do (that use weights) but perhaps add 15 minutes or so at the end of each session to hit the higher weights. Sound reasonable?

Last question - specifically, what's the best way to get rid of these extra few inches of tummy fat that I have. Who knows what type of abs I have behind it?! Is it just working on abs exercises again and again, or will cardio and reducing calorie intake via my diet help?

Sidesteal · July 2012

Thanks everyone for your comments so far. Very helpful, as always. I've done some re-work on my MFP goals and this is my current feeling:

What do you think?

Macros look reasonable but you may need to increase total intake slightly depending on your TDEE. I really wouldn't recommend trying to cut further at your weight.

I'd also like to clarify... I'm happy to gain weight, gain size, but I still just want to fit until my size 32" trousers. Perhaps I'm confusing weight gain with unwelcome fat gain. I assume these goals are possible.

As you gain weight, part of that gain will be fat. You then cut later on. Alternatively you could eat at maintenance which is generally regarded as a slower process.

I'm thinking I will keep up at least some of the classes I do (that use weights) but perhaps add 15 minutes or so at the end of each session to hit the higher weights. Sound reasonable?

Again, depends entirely on your goal. If you want to look lean and athletic it's likely that you'll want to lift weights on somewhat of a regular program.

Last question - specifically, what's the best way to get rid of these extra few inches of tummy fat that I have. Who knows what type of abs I have behind it?! Is it just working on abs exercises again and again, or will cardio and reducing calorie intake via my diet help?

Essentially you need to choose: Do I get smaller or do I get bigger?

There are pros and cons to both.

You are either going to cut, try to get dem abs, possibly end up looking smaller than you are now, or you're going to focus on gaining muscle mass with the possibility (likely) that you will gain some fat with it.

My point is that it's not very likely that you will get to your goal physique in one step. You are going to be constantly molding yourself and that will involve periods of calorie surplus to add mass and periods of calorie deficit to remove mass. Do it right and the majority of ADDED mass will be muscle and the majority of REMOVED mass will be fat.

TheTrimTim · July 2012

You are going to be constantly molding yourself and that will involve periods of calorie surplus to add mass and periods of calorie deficit to remove mass. Do it right and the majority of ADDED mass will be muscle and the majority of REMOVED mass will be fat.

And this is the part that I just don't get. I understand what's being said, I guess I'm struggling with the methodology of how to get there. At the end of the day, I've got a few inches of belly fat that need to be shifted if I have any hope of getting a peak at my abs.

RippedRunner · July 2012

bodybuilding.com has a TON of info and can answer all of your questions

Sidesteal · July 2012

Supplemental reading:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=121703981

If you're dead set on having abs, you could keep cutting, but given your stats I think that's not the best plan. I'm just suggesting that at 5'10 and 150 and having seen an image of your goal physique (I googled that actor you mentioned), you're not going to get there without also adding muscle mass.

I would get on a regular lifting program, start eating at a small surplus (see thread), re-assess in 4 months or so.

TheTrimTim · July 2012

Too many words!

Bakkasan · July 2012

You simply need to decide on a goal. You can shift that goal every week if you want, but:
Eat and lift to grow or
Eat and lift/cardio to cut

Also unless you really want those shakes and bars(I know I like them for the variety when its time to grow), eat good whole foods for the calories. Eggs, lean meats, complex starches like brown rice and sweet potato.

whiteheaddg · July 2012

Thanks for posting this question, Tim. I'm basically in the same boat at 5' 10" (with a few more pounds to lose) and have been wondering how to pick up some mass without putting inches back on the waist. Great advice from the folks here - much appreciated. I never even considered bulking and cutting cycles, though at 41 years old the cutting part seems tougher than it used to be.

Easywider · July 2012

You've been gifted with a wealth of information already. Especially by that guy who's handle alludes me at the moment...but he's been here for awhile and his responses are dead on the money.

Edit: Sidesteal referenced above.

At 5'11" 150. You are quite small brother, and take no offense when I say that because I'm in that category with you. We're the same height but I'm 175 with 8% bf and I'd be considered 'schmedium' at best. Thus, I don't believe 'cutting' should be anywhere near your vocabulary until you put on enough mass where cutting is...well...possible.

The only supplements you should consider are creatine, whey protein, and plenty of food. Food is the most anabolic substance you can put into your body bar none. If I were you, I'd eat 20% above TDEE for the best 8 weeks. During that period most of those calories should come solely from protein...with a range of around 100-150g's carbs anf 80-100g's of fat.

jeffpettis · July 2012

Sounds like all you want is to see your abs? If that's the case then yes you are going to have to continue dieting to lose more fat which at the same time is going to make you lose muscle, can't have it both ways. You have been given a ton of great advice already but it sounds like you are stuck on seeing your abs. If this is the case don't expect to gain any muscle along your journey to your abs, my advice would be to try your best to hold on to as much muscle as possible while you are dieting to see those abs because you are going to lose muscle in the process.

jeffpettis · July 2012

You simply need to decide on a goal. You can shift that goal every week if you want, but:

I wouldn't suggest shifting his goals every week, at a minimum he needs to stick with a goal for at least 3 months to see any benefit from it.

LeenaRuns · July 2012

Sorry if this has been mentioned--I don't have time right now to read all the other responses. Looking at your diary, you have your goals set well, but you actually need to follow them,. Make sure you're eating ALL your calories and get your protein in! Good luck.

ruthechesney · July 2012

bump

waldo56 · July 2012

Do you have a good idea as to what you want to look like?

Interesting question... and this is confusing me even more now. I do, and I don't. I don't have a specific body shape in mind. I don't want to be "body builder huge" but as toned as I can be. Think Daniel Craig's beach scene in Casino Royale I guess.

You will need to put on a solid 30 lbs of muscle to be built like Daniel Craig. He's not overly cut in that movie, and is carrying a little more BF than a fitness model would. Without the aid of generally frowned apon muscle building suppliments (read 'roids), it will take a few years of bulking and cutting cycles to get that big.

Google natural bodybuilders. That is what bodybuiler big is if you aren't using 'roids. Because of the juiced freaks most people have no concept of how big you can actually get if you aren't using 'roids. Remember a good part of a BB's size is actually an illusion created by being at a really, really low BF%.

It also needs to be said that you aren't going to blow up like a big fat balloon when bulking unless you grossly overeat. If you try gaining at 0.5-1.0 lb/wk an start at a relatively lean point, it will take a few months before you notice any fat gain whatsoever. Most people that haven't been training for a while will actually see their BF% decline at first when bulking as they gain muscle at a greater rate than their BF%.

Needing help with lead muscle gaining...

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