Sugars: do "natural" sugars count the same as processed?
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janejellyroll wrote: »SilentDan82 wrote: »Wow, I did not expect this much backlash... No, I don't have scientific papers to cite, I only speak from experience.... I can eat a lot of fruit and ingest a lot of calories that way and still feel hungry which leads me go way over my calorie target, that's why. I'll leave it to the OP to take from this what she needs....
Filling up on fruit isn't a great strategy for a lot of people, but that doesn't mean one has to limit fruit to just a garnish or a treat. You can have fruit as part of a meal or snack with other foods that you find more satiating. That works for many people (including me).
Ok, so I'm seeing a pattern here in the replies. I should've been more specific about what I consider "a lot", "sparingly" or a "treat". What you just described is still in line with what I am saying. I usually have a piece of fruit for breakfast and some berries in my salads and maybe a bit as a snack. Some people, when first trying to eat healthy, go nuts with the fruits because they taste better than vegetables and they require no prep. I've done that and I know others who have done that and it's always been a disaster. My point was to avoid this and not make fruits the majority of your meals.0 -
SilentDan82 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »SilentDan82 wrote: »Wow, I did not expect this much backlash... No, I don't have scientific papers to cite, I only speak from experience.... I can eat a lot of fruit and ingest a lot of calories that way and still feel hungry which leads me go way over my calorie target, that's why. I'll leave it to the OP to take from this what she needs....
Filling up on fruit isn't a great strategy for a lot of people, but that doesn't mean one has to limit fruit to just a garnish or a treat. You can have fruit as part of a meal or snack with other foods that you find more satiating. That works for many people (including me).
Ok, so I'm seeing a pattern here in the replies. I should've been more specific about what I consider "a lot", "sparingly" or a "treat". What you just described is still in line with what I am saying. I usually have a piece of fruit for breakfast and some berries in my salads and maybe a bit as a snack. Some people, when first trying to eat healthy, go nuts with the fruits because they taste better than vegetables and they require no prep. I've done that and I know others who have done that and it's always been a disaster. My point was to avoid this and not make fruits the majority of your meals.
The OP is worried about her cup of blueberries. One cup. Not four bananas for lunch and a pound of apples for dinner.12 -
SilentDan82 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »SilentDan82 wrote: »Wow, I did not expect this much backlash... No, I don't have scientific papers to cite, I only speak from experience.... I can eat a lot of fruit and ingest a lot of calories that way and still feel hungry which leads me go way over my calorie target, that's why. I'll leave it to the OP to take from this what she needs....
Filling up on fruit isn't a great strategy for a lot of people, but that doesn't mean one has to limit fruit to just a garnish or a treat. You can have fruit as part of a meal or snack with other foods that you find more satiating. That works for many people (including me).
Ok, so I'm seeing a pattern here in the replies. I should've been more specific about what I consider "a lot", "sparingly" or a "treat". What you just described is still in line with what I am saying. I usually have a piece of fruit for breakfast and some berries in my salads and maybe a bit as a snack. Some people, when first trying to eat healthy, go nuts with the fruits because they taste better than vegetables and they require no prep. I've done that and I know others who have done that and it's always been a disaster. My point was to avoid this and not make fruits the majority of your meals.
I get what you're saying -- disagreements can arise when people are using words in slightly different ways.
Meeting all your nutritional needs would be a challenge if fruit was the majority of your diet, so you won't see many people advocating for something like that here. If you take a look at the OP's original question, she references a cup of blueberries. That's a reasonable serving, one that is unlikely to crowd out anything else she needs. I don't think we have to worry about making sure she doesn't eat fruit in portions will cause her to exceed her calorie goal.
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SilentDan82 wrote: »
No, it falls under normal and reasonable serving size.
Your experience is coloring your language usage here and is distorting the meaning.
Most people would assume "sparing" to be in context in regards to the norm, not in regards to eating significantly more than is normal.12 -
Your best bet is to review the glycemic index and glycemic load of the food you are eating. These give you the impact to your body. Cherries for example have a low glycemic index and very low glycemic load. I strive for GI below 55 or 50 and a GL below 10. I recommend looking at those numbers vs. pure sugar numbers.9
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thomascgentle wrote: »Your best bet is to review the glycemic index and glycemic load of the food you are eating. These give you the impact to your body. Cherries for example have a low glycemic index and very low glycemic load. I strive for GI below 55 or 50 and a GL below 10. I recommend looking at those numbers vs. pure sugar numbers.
If you're going off of GI make sure you pay careful attention to the serving size. Sometimes the low GI foods have very, very tiny serving sizes. Also, when you combine foods it changes the GI of them. Only people with medical conditions would find this way of eating necessary.4 -
My one cup of raw blueberries has almost 15 g of sugars. I eat very little processed foods, no juice, no sugared drinks, yet my nutrition profile often is over the 24g daily sugar goal. Should fruit and veg natural sugars be counted the same? The Glycemic Load of these foods is quite low.
This should not be the MFP goal. The MFP goal is 15% of calories (which still might be low if you eat lots of fruit), and therefore even at 1200 it will be 45 g.
If you are referring to the "no more than 5% of calories, estimated at 25 g" recommendation from the WHO, that's about added sugar and things like honey, syrup, and juice, not all sugar. Just look at your sources of sugar if you want to track that. (Since the point is to avoid excess low nutrient/high cal foods, to have a nutrient dense diet, and, especially, excess calories, I don't worry about it if I know those things are on point.)2 -
SilentDan82 wrote: »OliveGirl128 wrote: »SilentDan82 wrote: »Wow, I did not expect this much backlash... No, I don't have scientific papers to cite, I only speak from experience.... I can eat a lot of fruit and ingest a lot of calories that way and still feel hungry which leads me go way over my calorie target, that's why. I'll leave it to the OP to take from this what she needs....
Define a 'lot' of fruit. Because I eat quite a bit of it (400+ grams a day on average), and have no problem fitting it into my calorie goals. In total I average 1,000+ grams of veg and fruit a day and it's the base that I build my meals on. Today for example I'm having a large banana, strawberries, blueberries and then a very generous portion of honey rock.
I can literally keep eating fruit non-stop for hours. What you just described I would still categorize as sparingly.
I usually have between 0 and 3 servings of fruit (more on average in the summer), but even if I ate fruit without limits I'd not overeat, since I find it quite filling. I understand not everyone does, but it's good to be aware that we are not all the same, so you can't claim that others will go over on their calorie goals from eating lots of fruit. (I don't eat tons, but I see nothing wrong with eating lots more if you get in adequate vegetables, protein, and healthy fats.)0 -
SilentDan82 wrote: »OliveGirl128 wrote: »SilentDan82 wrote: »Wow, I did not expect this much backlash... No, I don't have scientific papers to cite, I only speak from experience.... I can eat a lot of fruit and ingest a lot of calories that way and still feel hungry which leads me go way over my calorie target, that's why. I'll leave it to the OP to take from this what she needs....
Define a 'lot' of fruit. Because I eat quite a bit of it (400+ grams a day on average), and have no problem fitting it into my calorie goals. In total I average 1,000+ grams of veg and fruit a day and it's the base that I build my meals on. Today for example I'm having a large banana, strawberries, blueberries and then a very generous portion of honey rock.
I can literally keep eating fruit non-stop for hours. What you just described I would still categorize as sparingly.
Thanks for the clarification! So, for you fruit leads to binge like eating. Eating too much of any food is not a good thing, even if it's 'healthy' foods. However, you do have to realize that binge eating on fruit is not something most people struggle with, and including several servings a day into ones diet is a great way to get in important nutrients.2 -
SilentDan82 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »SilentDan82 wrote: »Wow, I did not expect this much backlash... No, I don't have scientific papers to cite, I only speak from experience.... I can eat a lot of fruit and ingest a lot of calories that way and still feel hungry which leads me go way over my calorie target, that's why. I'll leave it to the OP to take from this what she needs....
Filling up on fruit isn't a great strategy for a lot of people, but that doesn't mean one has to limit fruit to just a garnish or a treat. You can have fruit as part of a meal or snack with other foods that you find more satiating. That works for many people (including me).
Ok, so I'm seeing a pattern here in the replies. I should've been more specific about what I consider "a lot", "sparingly" or a "treat". What you just described is still in line with what I am saying. I usually have a piece of fruit for breakfast and some berries in my salads and maybe a bit as a snack. Some people, when first trying to eat healthy, go nuts with the fruits because they taste better than vegetables and they require no prep. I've done that and I know others who have done that and it's always been a disaster. My point was to avoid this and not make fruits the majority of your meals.
Do you really think this happening though, based on the OP's question? She talks about one cup of blueberries and a very moderate amount of sugar intake.2 -
OliveGirl128 wrote: »SilentDan82 wrote: »OliveGirl128 wrote: »SilentDan82 wrote: »Wow, I did not expect this much backlash... No, I don't have scientific papers to cite, I only speak from experience.... I can eat a lot of fruit and ingest a lot of calories that way and still feel hungry which leads me go way over my calorie target, that's why. I'll leave it to the OP to take from this what she needs....
Define a 'lot' of fruit. Because I eat quite a bit of it (400+ grams a day on average), and have no problem fitting it into my calorie goals. In total I average 1,000+ grams of veg and fruit a day and it's the base that I build my meals on. Today for example I'm having a large banana, strawberries, blueberries and then a very generous portion of honey rock.
I can literally keep eating fruit non-stop for hours. What you just described I would still categorize as sparingly.
Thanks for the clarification! So, for you fruit leads to binge like eating. Eating too much of any food is not a good thing, even if it's 'healthy' foods. However, you do have to realize that binge eating on fruit is not something most people struggle with, and including several servings a day into ones diet is a great way to get in important nutrients.
I wouldn't say I struggled with binge eating, I just thought it was good for me so I ate fruit all day.0 -
I apologize for my statement, it was misleading. I think we all agree eating fruit several times a day is fine as long as it's not all you're eating. Let's move on.4
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SilentDan82 wrote: »OliveGirl128 wrote: »SilentDan82 wrote: »OliveGirl128 wrote: »SilentDan82 wrote: »Wow, I did not expect this much backlash... No, I don't have scientific papers to cite, I only speak from experience.... I can eat a lot of fruit and ingest a lot of calories that way and still feel hungry which leads me go way over my calorie target, that's why. I'll leave it to the OP to take from this what she needs....
Define a 'lot' of fruit. Because I eat quite a bit of it (400+ grams a day on average), and have no problem fitting it into my calorie goals. In total I average 1,000+ grams of veg and fruit a day and it's the base that I build my meals on. Today for example I'm having a large banana, strawberries, blueberries and then a very generous portion of honey rock.
I can literally keep eating fruit non-stop for hours. What you just described I would still categorize as sparingly.
Thanks for the clarification! So, for you fruit leads to binge like eating. Eating too much of any food is not a good thing, even if it's 'healthy' foods. However, you do have to realize that binge eating on fruit is not something most people struggle with, and including several servings a day into ones diet is a great way to get in important nutrients.
I wouldn't say I struggled with binge eating, I just thought it was good for me so I ate fruit all day.
When one says they eat something 'non-stop for hours', that does indeed sound like a distorted eating pattern. You may not have thought of it like this, but that really is not a normal interaction with food.
Not trying to pick on you, honest
eta: just saw your last post, think we're all on the same page now lol 1 -
darn double post!0
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thomascgentle wrote: »Your best bet is to review the glycemic index and glycemic load of the food you are eating. These give you the impact to your body. Cherries for example have a low glycemic index and very low glycemic load. I strive for GI below 55 or 50 and a GL below 10. I recommend looking at those numbers vs. pure sugar numbers.
Glycemic Index has nothing to do with anything unless you're eating that particular food all by itself while in a fasted state.5 -
I often go over my sugar goal according to MFP. I ignore it when it's because of fruit. My personal opinion is that fruit is good for you, and those sugars shouldn't be worried about (unless you have another medical reason for it as someone else said).
But I do not see the fruit in sugar as the same as sugar in processed foods. Maybe it's the same in regards to the chemical makeup or whatnot, but sugar in fruit is naturally occurring. Added sugar in low fat salad dressing is not. I recently watched a documentary (I'm sorry that I can't remember the name at the moment!) that presented evidence that the US's obesity rates began to rise when we began to attack fat in foods. We went crazy making everything low or no fat, and to make up for the loss of flavor, food companies began to add sugar. According to this documentary, that is when the US got fat. Their argument was that sugar IS what makes people fat. But it's the added sugar in processed foods, not eating fruit in moderation.
The problem I find is that no matter what you read about sugar, fat, proper daily calorie intake, etc. etc., you can find someone else who thinks the exact opposite and can produce some sort of evidence to support what they say. I find it all rather exhausting!5 -
I often go over my sugar goal according to MFP. I ignore it when it's because of fruit. My personal opinion is that fruit is good for you, and those sugars shouldn't be worried about (unless you have another medical reason for it as someone else said).
But I do not see the fruit in sugar as the same as sugar in processed foods. Maybe it's the same in regards to the chemical makeup or whatnot, but sugar in fruit is naturally occurring. Added sugar in low fat salad dressing is not. I recently watched a documentary (I'm sorry that I can't remember the name at the moment!) that presented evidence that the US's obesity rates began to rise when we began to attack fat in foods. We went crazy making everything low or no fat, and to make up for the loss of flavor, food companies began to add sugar. According to this documentary, that is when the US got fat. Their argument was that sugar IS what makes people fat. But it's the added sugar in processed foods, not eating fruit in moderation.
The problem I find is that no matter what you read about sugar, fat, proper daily calorie intake, etc. etc., you can find someone else who thinks the exact opposite and can produce some sort of evidence to support what they say. I find it all rather exhausting!
Sugar doesn't make people fat. Excess calories do. If the lower-fat, higher-sugar salad dressing is lower in calories, then it can be helpful to the person trying to moderate caloric intake and help them to lose weight. If the lower fat dressing makes the salad less satisfying and leads the individual to compensate by eating more calories from other sources, it may not be as helpful. The bottom line: it's the calories.3 -
Added sugar in low fat salad dressing is not.
Well, it can be.
I make all my own salad dressings, and usually just do a vinaigrette, but some vinegars have a little sugar. I also often make them with lime or lemon juice (I squeeze it myself) and clearly that is added sugar (even according to the WHO, who say that juice sugar counts as such in their recommendation). I dislike sweet dressings, but you can make a low fat honey mustard or some such at home too. I would say none of that is less natural than the sugar in the vegetables (and fruit) on the salad.I recently watched a documentary (I'm sorry that I can't remember the name at the moment!) that presented evidence that the US's obesity rates began to rise when we began to attack fat in foods. We went crazy making everything low or no fat, and to make up for the loss of flavor, food companies began to add sugar. According to this documentary, that is when the US got fat. Their argument was that sugar IS what makes people fat. But it's the added sugar in processed foods, not eating fruit in moderation.
This is bunk, although it's a common claim of some anti sugar (or anti carb) folks. The amount of fat in the US diet simply did not go down, ever, so that cannot be what made us fat. Also, the US diet is still on average a higher fat diet, and NOT especially high carb vs. other diets, including places with a much lower obesity rate. What happened is that people have increasingly eaten more calories (and been somewhat less active, probably). Because the diet has shifted to more convenience foods and fast foods, the calories added have been more carbs than anything else (cheap), but they aren't low fat for the most part.
I think culturally people are more likely to snack (high carbs and often fat), drink more soda (sugar), eat out (fat and carbs), so on, and so calories have increased, but it makes no sense to blame dietary advice or the low fat craze for this when people did not decrease total fat.
Also, you know what the dietary guidelines have consistently said, even when they pushed a lower fat diet? Limit added sugar, and eat more vegetables, fruits, and whole grains (instead of refined grains). Do you know what the US population on average did not do? Exactly those things.
Also, the lower fat = more sugar stuff tends to be things like Snackwells (the classic example), which no one expected to be low sugar (cookies!) and no one thought was particularly good for you. Did some people think low fat meant "I can eat unlimited amounts" -- I am sure, people have endless capacities for wishful thinking (see "maybe I'm not losing because I am eating too little"), but not because of dietary advice.
Even now, you'd think from the amount of ink spilled on "hidden sugars" and sugar in low fat foods like salad dressing that Americans unsuspectingly got some huge percentage of our sugar from savory foods that somehow did not reveal their true sugar amounts (or calories) right on the label. That is not true. People just don't want to admit that most people get most of their added sugar from foods that OBVIOUSLY contain lots of sugar: pop is the biggest culprit, juices with added sugar, coffee drinks, energy drinks, dessert foods like sweet baked goods, candy, ice cream, and then various non dessert products that are just as obviously sweetened like sugary cereals, sweetened yogurt (which basically is a dessert food), etc. The percent from ketchup and salad dressing and bread and so on is really not that high from the stats I've seen.5
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