Should surgery cost be standardized?
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Reading this makes me glad to be English! The NHS isn't perfect, and we do pay for it in our taxes, but I'm glad I can go to hospital if necessary and not be given a huge bill.
How long do you wait for a non emergency? I can get in to see my doctor tomorrow without an appointment. If my baby runs a fever I can take him to his doctor or one of the 15 urgent cares or 5 hospitals within a 5 mile radius of my house and yes I pay for it but so do you. You either pay from your pocket, pay through your taxes, or pay in quality but everyone pays.0 -
Can you name one socialist country with anywhere near the cancer research taking place in the US?
Most funding for cancer research comes from taxpayers and charities, rather than from profit-making businesses. In the US, less than 30% of all cancer research is funded by commercial researchers such as pharmaceutical companies.
Eckhouse, S.; Sullivan, R. (2006). "A Survey of Public Funding of Cancer Research in the European Union". PLoS Medicine 3 (7): e267. doi:10.1371/journal.pmed.0030267. PMC 1513045. PMID 16842021.0 -
Lol, wait when we're speaking of bail outs are you excluding big banks with lots of money too?:laugh: While I won't disagree with your statement of how people handle money, I'm more than sure that people who have health insurance are paying a big chunk for it. Most working people have jobs that offer health care benefits and pay for them yet still can be near the poverty level. Got an aunt who's a nurse, owns a house, no fancy car, but a lot of her money goes to my cousin's heart problems (born with).
Capitalism is fine for business. But healthcare shouldn't be a for profit venture. Part of the reason people near poverty level don't get check ups is because they can't afford the premiums to cover health care.Last time I checked this was still America and socialism hadn't been adopted.
The number one cause for bankruptcy is medical expenses.
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For profit is what drives research and development in the US. Don't be so quick to get rid of it or you can kiss any chance of a cure for any disease out the window. The reason so many people are so close to poverty is that they don't plan appropriately. They figure someone will always bail them out so they play when they should study, play when they should work, play when they should raise their children, play when they should plan, spend when they should save, and buy Iphones and bling instead of health insurance. Many of the "poverty level" people have more gadgets and gold than I will ever see in this life. I work everyday to pay for their food, housing, and education, I shouldn't also have to sacrifice my level of healthcare so they can get that for free too.
And if you didn't know it already, whether you think you're paying for it or not, other peoples health care bills that aren't paid for by insurance, is collected from taxes you pay.
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The reason so many people are so close to poverty is that they don't plan appropriately. They figure someone will always bail them out so they play when they should study, play when they should work, play when they should raise their children, play when they should plan, spend when they should save, and buy Iphones and bling instead of health insurance. Many of the "poverty level" people have more gadgets and gold than I will ever see in this life. I work everyday to pay for their food, housing, and education, I shouldn't also have to sacrifice my level of healthcare so they can get that for free too.
Got any reliable sources for that? Or did you once see someone who "looked poor" with an iPhone?
There are many systematic causes for poverty. The economy is crap, and if someone was born into poverty and had difficulty getting an education, that makes it even harder to get a job and get a proverbial leg up. Poverty also decreases access to birth control, resulting in larger family sizes, and since childcare is often quite expensive, this also makes it difficult to find employment. Also, when it's hard to put food on the table and pay for medication--- even with government assistance-- it's damn hard to save much.
There are a LOT of things to consider, and awareness of the high-level situation, as well as a broad, data-driven picture (not a gut reaction from one anecdote) is important.
Here is your data driven:
I was raised in one of the poorest areas of the country. I come from a large family but I was taught a work ethic and that it is wrong morally and socially to depend on others for what you are capable of doing for yourself. I worked hard and I have never taken a single dime from the government.
When I was in high school I worked as a cashier at a grocery store to help out. I would stand there everyday and watch the people in line trade their food stamps with other people in the store for cash so they could buy beer. It happened every single day that I worked, without exception.
There is an entire generation who see nothing wrong with taking from the government. What they don't seem to get or perhaps don't care is that they aren't taking from the government they are taking from me. They are able bodied and capable of working but everything is beneath them. There is not nor has there every been a job I consider beneath me if it puts food on my children's table. I expect the same of the people I give money to "help".0 -
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324059704578471453118371838.html
At John Muir Medical Center in Walnut Creek, Calif., the set price of treatment for fractures of the hip and pelvis averaged $64,016 per patient in 2011. Meanwhile, Wooster Community Hospital in Wooster, Ohio, set its price for treating such injuries at an average of just $3,986 per patient that year.
Now while I will agree that land cost and cost of living will play into a higher cost at John Muir (I live about 30 minutes away from it), we're talking $60,000 in difference for the same procedure? Until health care in the US stops being a for profit operation, the cost of healthcare in the US will be high.
Thoughts?
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Wait, what? Okay assuming this is the price for essentially the same procedure, amount of personnel, and aftercare days....wouldn't it be cheaper then to just fly to Ohio? Isn't it like when people fly to brazil or wherever for their tummy tucks? Can't they fly to where they want the surgery or like the price better?0 -
Capitalism is fine for business. But healthcare shouldn't be a for profit venture. Part of the reason people near poverty level don't get check ups is because they can't afford the premiums to cover health care.Last time I checked this was still America and socialism hadn't been adopted.
The number one cause for bankruptcy is medical expenses.
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Of course health care should work on free market principals. If I'm rich, I want access to more and better. If I'm broke, I get a lower standard of care. Or no care. That's how capitalism works. I think we should have a universal health care system in the US, but even still people with mo money get mo options. The education system works the same way0 -
Why does a country have to be socialist to offer free health care? Canada, Japan and England aren't and all offer great research for cancer.
The US isn't the only place where innovation happens. Many countries all over the world contribute to research and development of their own and still have complementary health care for patients.Its a free market for a reason. It drives research and development. Perhaps the care at that hospital is significantly better, they have a lower mortality rate, or they provide additional services to make the difference. If there was truly an issue with the cost another hospital would offer the service at a lower rate to compete with the hospital in question and as the first hospital lost business it would be forced to evaluate the cost. There is some reason why they can justify that charge or someone else would be undercutting them. That is how free market works. Forcing standardized pricing cuts services in areas where it is more expensive to operate. Businesses will protect their profit margins so anytime you demand a flat cost you are really demanding they lower the quality of care and forgo any research and development. It is why socialism and communism always fail to produce innovation. Where there is no motivation $ there is no innovation.
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Can you name one socialist country with anywhere near the cancer research taking place in the US?
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Slightly off topic, but maybe interesting to some nonetheless.
I think the effect of privatised health actually goes far deeper than people imagine. I work for a large multinational, and through my experience, I find in general (it's a generalisation, not everyone) people in the US are less likely to criticise the way things are done, and stir up changes, than Europeans. I don't know exactly why this is, and its likely many cultural reasons, but in discussing, one thing that came up was that health coverage is generally linked to employment, and people are far more cautious about stirring things up and upsetting management for fear of ending up with no job and no health coverage.
Don't get me wrong, this must apply everywhere, as even taking the healthcare situation out, ending up with no job is not great, but I still think the healthcare plays a significant factor in this dynamic.0 -
For profit is what drives research and development in the US. Don't be so quick to get rid of it or you can kiss any chance of a cure for any disease out the window. The reason so many people are so close to poverty is that they don't plan appropriately. They figure someone will always bail them out so they play when they should study, play when they should work, play when they should raise their children, play when they should plan, spend when they should save, and buy Iphones and bling instead of health insurance. Many of the "poverty level" people have more gadgets and gold than I will ever see in this life. I work everyday to pay for their food, housing, and education, I shouldn't also have to sacrifice my level of healthcare so they can get that for free too.
This is only a tiny bit true. But, it's mostly ignorant and from the mouth of someone who has not gotten cancer, then dropped from all insurance, and unable to get treatment because its not affordable. Wool is pulled so far over your eyes that you actually think you're right. I'm just going to tell you that you are very wrong. Until it happens to you though, you won't believe it. And, there is no amount of planning that prepares you for $1,000 pills each that you have to take daily. I don't know about you, but that would drain my savings pretty fast. Silly people and their capitalistic belief system. That's not how it works at all.
Added to this is that some people could not afford insurance because they have pre-existing conditions. When I was working for places that did not offer insurance I tried like hell to fet private insurance and was denied by all the ones around because of a pre-existing. I would have had to go through major risk govt insurance tbat was about $600 a month and that was 20 years ago.
Even with med ins medical expenses are horrific. My husband was on so many meds and had so many docs and hosp visits that if i didnt work at a place that gave me additional discounts we would not have been able to eat or afford his meds orpay bills.0 -
Capitalism is fine for business. But healthcare shouldn't be a for profit venture. Part of the reason people near poverty level don't get check ups is because they can't afford the premiums to cover health care.Last time I checked this was still America and socialism hadn't been adopted.
The number one cause for bankruptcy is medical expenses.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
For profit is what drives research and development in the US. Don't be so quick to get rid of it or you can kiss any chance of a cure for any disease out the window. The reason so many people are so close to poverty is that they don't plan appropriately. They figure someone will always bail them out so they play when they should study, play when they should work, play when they should raise their children, play when they should plan, spend when they should save, and buy Iphones and bling instead of health insurance. Many of the "poverty level" people have more gadgets and gold than I will ever see in this life. I work everyday to pay for their food, housing, and education, I shouldn't also have to sacrifice my level of healthcare so they can get that for free too.
You have a very naive view of how poverty works and what causes people to live and stay at poverty level incomes. Basically right off Fox news radio.0 -
Not against people with more money who can afford it to pay more for higher optional services if they so choose. I just don't believe healthcare should be denied because of money statis.
Capitalism is fine for business. But healthcare shouldn't be a for profit venture. Part of the reason people near poverty level don't get check ups is because they can't afford the premiums to cover health care.Last time I checked this was still America and socialism hadn't been adopted.
The number one cause for bankruptcy is medical expenses.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Of course health care should work on free market principals. If I'm rich, I want access to more and better. If I'm broke, I get a lower standard of care. Or no care. That's how capitalism works. I think we should have a universal health care system in the US, but even still people with mo money get mo options. The education system works the same way
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Yep, I am one of those people paying a big chunk for health insurance and nope we don't have a fancy car or a house that is even adequate for the size of the family we have, but if you have your way I will still pay too much for health insurance and I will get crappy care when I need to use it. If you want to cut healthcare cost then you need to look at tort reform. A major contributing factor to the difference in cost between hospitals is how much liability insurance they need and the cost of malpractice insurance for the physicians in a given area.
Lol, wait when we're speaking of bail outs are you excluding big banks with lots of money too?:laugh: While I won't disagree with your statement of how people handle money, I'm more than sure that people who have health insurance are paying a big chunk for it. Most working people have jobs that offer health care benefits and pay for them yet still can be near the poverty level. Got an aunt who's a nurse, owns a house, no fancy car, but a lot of her money goes to my cousin's heart problems (born with).
Capitalism is fine for business. But healthcare shouldn't be a for profit venture. Part of the reason people near poverty level don't get check ups is because they can't afford the premiums to cover health care.Last time I checked this was still America and socialism hadn't been adopted.
The number one cause for bankruptcy is medical expenses.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
For profit is what drives research and development in the US. Don't be so quick to get rid of it or you can kiss any chance of a cure for any disease out the window. The reason so many people are so close to poverty is that they don't plan appropriately. They figure someone will always bail them out so they play when they should study, play when they should work, play when they should raise their children, play when they should plan, spend when they should save, and buy Iphones and bling instead of health insurance. Many of the "poverty level" people have more gadgets and gold than I will ever see in this life. I work everyday to pay for their food, housing, and education, I shouldn't also have to sacrifice my level of healthcare so they can get that for free too.
And if you didn't know it already, whether you think you're paying for it or not, other peoples health care bills that aren't paid for by insurance, is collected from taxes you pay.
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The reason so many people are so close to poverty is that they don't plan appropriately. They figure someone will always bail them out so they play when they should study, play when they should work, play when they should raise their children, play when they should plan, spend when they should save, and buy Iphones and bling instead of health insurance. Many of the "poverty level" people have more gadgets and gold than I will ever see in this life. I work everyday to pay for their food, housing, and education, I shouldn't also have to sacrifice my level of healthcare so they can get that for free too.
Got any reliable sources for that? Or did you once see someone who "looked poor" with an iPhone?
There are many systematic causes for poverty. The economy is crap, and if someone was born into poverty and had difficulty getting an education, that makes it even harder to get a job and get a proverbial leg up. Poverty also decreases access to birth control, resulting in larger family sizes, and since childcare is often quite expensive, this also makes it difficult to find employment. Also, when it's hard to put food on the table and pay for medication--- even with government assistance-- it's damn hard to save much.
There are a LOT of things to consider, and awareness of the high-level situation, as well as a broad, data-driven picture (not a gut reaction from one anecdote) is important.
Here is your data driven:
I was raised in one of the poorest areas of the country. I come from a large family but I was taught a work ethic and that it is wrong morally and socially to depend on others for what you are capable of doing for yourself. I worked hard and I have never taken a single dime from the government.
When I was in high school I worked as a cashier at a grocery store to help out. I would stand there everyday and watch the people in line trade their food stamps with other people in the store for cash so they could buy beer. It happened every single day that I worked, without exception.
There is an entire generation who see nothing wrong with taking from the government. What they don't seem to get or perhaps don't care is that they aren't taking from the government they are taking from me. They are able bodied and capable of working but everything is beneath them. There is not nor has there every been a job I consider beneath me if it puts food on my children's table. I expect the same of the people I give money to "help".
This is my perception as well. Sometimes people have tried to give me well meaning advice on what I could "get for free" or whatnot. I don't like that. It's so awkward and I'd hate to have to say....really? You think I should be looking for shortcuts to get something for free when I am in a position to pay for it? I always leave these people wondering how much of their well dressed persona is paid for by my tax dollars indirectly since they aren't paying for something else they have figured out how to "get for free". It's not always the people you might expect too.
Personally we have some family members that constantly fall a little and we come in with a little financial support. Not lost on us though is the irony that we notice so many little gadgets lying all around their house and wonder if they don't think we know how expensive those things actually are. There is a pervasive and insidious mentality of "take what you can get" and also this non-descript aura of some magical place in the sky where all this is coming from and no regard that it's actually coming out of people's paychecks. That people are actually paying for those "free" things.0 -
Not against people with more money who can afford it to pay more for higher optional services if they so choose. I just don't believe healthcare should be denied because of money statis.Of course health care should work on free market principals. If I'm rich, I want access to more and better. If I'm broke, I get a lower standard of care. Or no care. That's how capitalism works. I think we should have a universal health care system in the US, but even still people with mo money get mo options. The education system works the same way
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That's how the NHS works in the UK. Everyone is welcome to use it, and it provides a good standard of care, but if you want to choose a specific surgeon, or want a private room with gold leaf on the walls and waitress service, or you want something not required medically, such a cosmetic surgery purely for body enhancement, then you either buy an insurance package to cover it (fancier hospital, choice of surgeon, not cosmetic stuff), or you dip into your pockets.0 -
Why does a country have to be socialist to offer free health care? Canada, Japan and England aren't and all offer great research for cancer.
The US isn't the only place where innovation happens. Many countries all over the world contribute to research and development of their own and still have complementary health care for patients.Its a free market for a reason. It drives research and development. Perhaps the care at that hospital is significantly better, they have a lower mortality rate, or they provide additional services to make the difference. If there was truly an issue with the cost another hospital would offer the service at a lower rate to compete with the hospital in question and as the first hospital lost business it would be forced to evaluate the cost. There is some reason why they can justify that charge or someone else would be undercutting them. That is how free market works. Forcing standardized pricing cuts services in areas where it is more expensive to operate. Businesses will protect their profit margins so anytime you demand a flat cost you are really demanding they lower the quality of care and forgo any research and development. It is why socialism and communism always fail to produce innovation. Where there is no motivation $ there is no innovation.
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Can you name one socialist country with anywhere near the cancer research taking place in the US?
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Their research still pales in comparison with what is being done in the US. Not just for cancer but for so many others. We are leading the way in this department by leaps and bounds. Are you willing to give that up? Are you willing to set back finding the cure for cancer, alzheimer's, or any of the thousands of incurable conditions just so that someone who didn't plan ahead can continue to not plan ahead but not see any consequences for it?0 -
True. In fact I work in a Wellness Center that is an accredited cancer program by the College of Surgeons' commission on Cancer and the hospital gets the majority of it money from charities and taxpayers.Can you name one socialist country with anywhere near the cancer research taking place in the US?
Most funding for cancer research comes from taxpayers and charities, rather than from profit-making businesses. In the US, less than 30% of all cancer research is funded by commercial researchers such as pharmaceutical companies.
Eckhouse, S.; Sullivan, R. (2006). "A Survey of Public Funding of Cancer Research in the European Union". PLoS Medicine 3 (7): e267. doi:10.1371/journal.pmed.0030267. PMC 1513045. PMID 16842021.
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Not against people with more money who can afford it to pay more for higher optional services if they so choose. I just don't believe healthcare should be denied because of money statis.Of course health care should work on free market principals. If I'm rich, I want access to more and better. If I'm broke, I get a lower standard of care. Or no care. That's how capitalism works. I think we should have a universal health care system in the US, but even still people with mo money get mo options. The education system works the same way
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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That's how the NHS works in the UK. Everyone is welcome to use it, and it provides a good standard of care, but if you want to choose a specific surgeon, or want a private room with gold leaf on the walls and waitress service, or you want something not required medically, such a cosmetic surgery purely for body enhancement, then you either buy an insurance package to cover it (fancier hospital, choice of surgeon, not cosmetic stuff), or you dip into your pockets.
That sounds good. Do you like it?0 -
So it's actually more about you, then the actual for profit healthcare of the US? Least that's what it sounds like.The reason so many people are so close to poverty is that they don't plan appropriately. They figure someone will always bail them out so they play when they should study, play when they should work, play when they should raise their children, play when they should plan, spend when they should save, and buy Iphones and bling instead of health insurance. Many of the "poverty level" people have more gadgets and gold than I will ever see in this life. I work everyday to pay for their food, housing, and education, I shouldn't also have to sacrifice my level of healthcare so they can get that for free too.
Got any reliable sources for that? Or did you once see someone who "looked poor" with an iPhone?
There are many systematic causes for poverty. The economy is crap, and if someone was born into poverty and had difficulty getting an education, that makes it even harder to get a job and get a proverbial leg up. Poverty also decreases access to birth control, resulting in larger family sizes, and since childcare is often quite expensive, this also makes it difficult to find employment. Also, when it's hard to put food on the table and pay for medication--- even with government assistance-- it's damn hard to save much.
There are a LOT of things to consider, and awareness of the high-level situation, as well as a broad, data-driven picture (not a gut reaction from one anecdote) is important.
Here is your data driven:
I was raised in one of the poorest areas of the country. I come from a large family but I was taught a work ethic and that it is wrong morally and socially to depend on others for what you are capable of doing for yourself. I worked hard and I have never taken a single dime from the government.
When I was in high school I worked as a cashier at a grocery store to help out. I would stand there everyday and watch the people in line trade their food stamps with other people in the store for cash so they could buy beer. It happened every single day that I worked, without exception.
There is an entire generation who see nothing wrong with taking from the government. What they don't seem to get or perhaps don't care is that they aren't taking from the government they are taking from me. They are able bodied and capable of working but everything is beneath them. There is not nor has there every been a job I consider beneath me if it puts food on my children's table. I expect the same of the people I give money to "help".
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0
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