Pre-Workout Drinks are a scam
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There's an overwhelming amount of evidence in support of caffeine having ergogenic effects.
I DO think pre-workouts are over-used and many people think they need them. I just drink coffee.
But I think saying "chemical" without saying which specific ingredient you take issue with, is rather silly. If you're going to take issue with a specific ingredient, tell us why. Just saying chemical literally says nothing. Water is a chemical.
I think you know exactly what I was referring to when I meant chemicals. It is loaded with garbage. Including caffeine which is garbage! Please do not get into chemistry with me as I have a minor in chemistry. I am well aware of the chemical composition of water.
Then please state which ingredient you take issue with. Saying "chemicals" is equivalent to saying "toxins" when it comes to buzzword nonsense.
If you don't like pre-workouts, cool. But if you're going to paint this picture of them being somehow detrimental then state why. Saying "garbage" doesn't really tell us anything.
I just did! I specifically said caffeine. It is the worst ingredients, it is known to be addictive. It is an addictive drug similar to that of nicotine. That alone is an issue for me. And should be for anyone. People become addicted to caffeine I need more and more of it to get the same results they did when they started. That is the beauty of caffeine and that is the beauty of their industry. People become addicted and need more of the product as time goes on. That is a fact, it is undeniable
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There's an overwhelming amount of evidence in support of caffeine having ergogenic effects.
I DO think pre-workouts are over-used and many people think they need them. I just drink coffee.
But I think saying "chemical" without saying which specific ingredient you take issue with, is rather silly. If you're going to take issue with a specific ingredient, tell us why. Just saying chemical literally says nothing. Water is a chemical.
I think you know exactly what I was referring to when I meant chemicals. It is loaded with garbage. Including caffeine which is garbage! Please do not get into chemistry with me as I have a minor in chemistry. I am well aware of the chemical composition of water.
Then please state which ingredient you take issue with. Saying "chemicals" is equivalent to saying "toxins" when it comes to buzzword nonsense.
If you don't like pre-workouts, cool. But if you're going to paint this picture of them being somehow detrimental then state why. Saying "garbage" doesn't really tell us anything.
I just did! I specifically said caffeine. It is the worst ingredients, it is known to be addictive. It is an addictive drug similar to that of nicotine. That alone is an issue for me. And should be for anyone. People become addicted to caffeine I need more and more of it to get the same results they did when they started. That is the beauty of caffeine and that is the beauty of their industry. People become addicted and need more of the product as time goes on. That is a fact, it is undeniable
Is it harmful and do you have evidence of this?2 -
There's an overwhelming amount of evidence in support of caffeine having ergogenic effects.
I DO think pre-workouts are over-used and many people think they need them. I just drink coffee.
But I think saying "chemical" without saying which specific ingredient you take issue with, is rather silly. If you're going to take issue with a specific ingredient, tell us why. Just saying chemical literally says nothing. Water is a chemical.
I think you know exactly what I was referring to when I meant chemicals. It is loaded with garbage. Including caffeine which is garbage! Please do not get into chemistry with me as I have a minor in chemistry. I am well aware of the chemical composition of water.
Then please state which ingredient you take issue with. Saying "chemicals" is equivalent to saying "toxins" when it comes to buzzword nonsense.
If you don't like pre-workouts, cool. But if you're going to paint this picture of them being somehow detrimental then state why. Saying "garbage" doesn't really tell us anything.
I just did! I specifically said caffeine. It is the worst ingredients, it is known to be addictive. It is an addictive drug similar to that of nicotine. That alone is an issue for me. And should be for anyone. People become addicted to caffeine I need more and more of it to get the same results they did when they started. That is the beauty of caffeine and that is the beauty of their industry. People become addicted and need more of the product as time goes on. That is a fact, it is undeniable
Is it harmful and do you have evidence of this?
Dude please. We all know caffeine is an addictive like drug I'm done with this conversation with you0 -
There's an overwhelming amount of evidence in support of caffeine having ergogenic effects.
I DO think pre-workouts are over-used and many people think they need them. I just drink coffee.
But I think saying "chemical" without saying which specific ingredient you take issue with, is rather silly. If you're going to take issue with a specific ingredient, tell us why. Just saying chemical literally says nothing. Water is a chemical.
I think you know exactly what I was referring to when I meant chemicals. It is loaded with garbage. Including caffeine which is garbage! Please do not get into chemistry with me as I have a minor in chemistry. I am well aware of the chemical composition of water.
I don't see how you are coming to the conclusion that "Caffeine is garbage". There have been numerous studies indicating that in moderation, it has several health benefits.
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/144/6/890.abstract
https://jonbarron.org/article/caffeine-health-benefits-and-health-risks
https://www.caffeineinformer.com/top-10-caffeine-health-benefits (Obviously not the greatest source)5 -
Is there any chances this thread develops into a legit conversation about the merits of pre-workouts and some of the specific ingredients, or should I just unstar it now?
Specifically, I'd love to hear some more details about dosing as @Gallowmere1984 mentioned:Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Ehh, a few ingredients in most of them do have solid research backing up the claims, but said ingredients are few, and are usually underdosed AF in pwos. I'm considering giving Pulse a go, but since they reduced the caffeine in a reformulation, I'll need to pop a 200 mg caff tab along with it. Luckily, those are stupid cheap.
It's kind of amusing, because if you look at the clinical dosages of what works, about 90% of pwos do fall waaaaaay short, and that's assuming that the label is even accurate.
I'd also be interested in pros and cons of caffeine.
I think someone also mentioned B vitamins and whether they actually did anything other than make your skin tingle...
Regarding dosing your best bet would be to reference pre-workout ingredients in supplements that don't use prop blends and compare dosing to the available evidence at examine.com.
Examine will likely have everything well-referenced so you can compare.
A simple and completely made up example might be something like Beta Alanine -- standard dosing ranges based on evidence are in the 2-5g range. If you had a pre-workout that had .5g in it per serving this would be an example of under-dosing and you'd likely not get the full performance benefits from it.
Another example would simply be looking at caffeine dosage to make sure you're not taking a pre-workout loaded with caffeine and then drinking your usual 3 cups of coffee.
As far as ingredient effectiveness is concerned though, I'd go to examine.com first as a primary resource -- they cover effectiveness and dosing quite well.4 -
There's an overwhelming amount of evidence in support of caffeine having ergogenic effects.
I DO think pre-workouts are over-used and many people think they need them. I just drink coffee.
But I think saying "chemical" without saying which specific ingredient you take issue with, is rather silly. If you're going to take issue with a specific ingredient, tell us why. Just saying chemical literally says nothing. Water is a chemical.
I think you know exactly what I was referring to when I meant chemicals. It is loaded with garbage. Including caffeine which is garbage! Please do not get into chemistry with me as I have a minor in chemistry. I am well aware of the chemical composition of water.
Then please state which ingredient you take issue with. Saying "chemicals" is equivalent to saying "toxins" when it comes to buzzword nonsense.
If you don't like pre-workouts, cool. But if you're going to paint this picture of them being somehow detrimental then state why. Saying "garbage" doesn't really tell us anything.
I just did! I specifically said caffeine. It is the worst ingredients, it is known to be addictive. It is an addictive drug similar to that of nicotine. That alone is an issue for me. And should be for anyone. People become addicted to caffeine I need more and more of it to get the same results they did when they started. That is the beauty of caffeine and that is the beauty of their industry. People become addicted and need more of the product as time goes on. That is a fact, it is undeniable
Is it harmful and do you have evidence of this?
Dude please. We all know caffeine is an addictive like drug I'm done with this conversation with you
So you think caffeine is bad because it's addictive and you have no evidence that it's harmful.
Gotcha.
You can carry on with your opinion of course, and feel free to ignore me. If you DO have evidence of caffeine being harmful I'm all ears.5 -
There's an overwhelming amount of evidence in support of caffeine having ergogenic effects.
I DO think pre-workouts are over-used and many people think they need them. I just drink coffee.
But I think saying "chemical" without saying which specific ingredient you take issue with, is rather silly. If you're going to take issue with a specific ingredient, tell us why. Just saying chemical literally says nothing. Water is a chemical.
I think you know exactly what I was referring to when I meant chemicals. It is loaded with garbage. Including caffeine which is garbage! Please do not get into chemistry with me as I have a minor in chemistry. I am well aware of the chemical composition of water.
I don't see how you are coming to the conclusion that "Caffeine is garbage". There have been numerous studies indicating that in moderation, it has several health benefits.
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/144/6/890.abstract
https://jonbarron.org/article/caffeine-health-benefits-and-health-risks
https://www.caffeineinformer.com/top-10-caffeine-health-benefits (Obviously not the greatest source)
Yes people who drink a cup or two of coffee a day that caffeine is fine. It's the people that are doing two times and three times the recommended dosage of pre-workout. Drinkng 2 NOS drinks, Drinking 7 cups of coffee a day. Out of everyone I know, I am the only one who only drinks one cup of coffee a day. Most people are upwards of 5+ their pre-workouts. NOS is used like water for a lot of people I known and see. They are taking in well above the recommended dosage of caffeine in the course of a day.0 -
Is there any chances this thread develops into a legit conversation about the merits of pre-workouts and some of the specific ingredients, or should I just unstar it now?
Specifically, I'd love to hear some more details about dosing as @Gallowmere1984 mentioned:Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Ehh, a few ingredients in most of them do have solid research backing up the claims, but said ingredients are few, and are usually underdosed AF in pwos. I'm considering giving Pulse a go, but since they reduced the caffeine in a reformulation, I'll need to pop a 200 mg caff tab along with it. Luckily, those are stupid cheap.
It's kind of amusing, because if you look at the clinical dosages of what works, about 90% of pwos do fall waaaaaay short, and that's assuming that the label is even accurate.
I'd also be interested in pros and cons of caffeine.
I think someone also mentioned B vitamins and whether they actually did anything other than make your skin tingle...
Regarding dosing your best bet would be to reference pre-workout ingredients in supplements that don't use prop blends and compare dosing to the available evidence at examine.com.
Examine will likely have everything well-referenced so you can compare.
A simple and completely made up example might be something like Beta Alanine -- standard dosing ranges based on evidence are in the 2-5g range. If you had a pre-workout that had .5g in it per serving this would be an example of under-dosing and you'd likely not get the full performance benefits from it.
Another example would simply be looking at caffeine dosage to make sure you're not taking a pre-workout loaded with caffeine and then drinking your usual 3 cups of coffee.
As far as ingredient effectiveness is concerned though, I'd go to examine.com first as a primary resource -- they cover effectiveness and dosing quite well.
Oops
@Gallowmere1984 I hadn't realized that Legion reduced the amount of caffeine in Pulse. I hadn't noticed at all. It'll be interesting to see if, now that I know, I'll feel very sleepy.0 -
There's an overwhelming amount of evidence in support of caffeine having ergogenic effects.
I DO think pre-workouts are over-used and many people think they need them. I just drink coffee.
But I think saying "chemical" without saying which specific ingredient you take issue with, is rather silly. If you're going to take issue with a specific ingredient, tell us why. Just saying chemical literally says nothing. Water is a chemical.
I think you know exactly what I was referring to when I meant chemicals. It is loaded with garbage. Including caffeine which is garbage! Please do not get into chemistry with me as I have a minor in chemistry. I am well aware of the chemical composition of water.
I don't see how you are coming to the conclusion that "Caffeine is garbage". There have been numerous studies indicating that in moderation, it has several health benefits.
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/144/6/890.abstract
https://jonbarron.org/article/caffeine-health-benefits-and-health-risks
https://www.caffeineinformer.com/top-10-caffeine-health-benefits (Obviously not the greatest source)
Yes people who drink a cup or two of coffee a day that caffeine is fine. It's the people that are doing two times and three times the recommended dosage of pre-workout. Drinkng 2 NOS drinks, Drinking 7 cups of coffee a day. Out of everyone I know, I am the only one who only drinks one cup of coffee a day. Most people are upwards of 5+ their pre-workouts. NOS is used like water for a lot of people I known and see. They are taking in well above the recommended dosage of caffeine in the course of a day.
So to clarify, your issue with caffeine is specifically with people who take massive amounts of it daily?
And you also use caffeine yourself in small doses?3 -
There's an overwhelming amount of evidence in support of caffeine having ergogenic effects.
I DO think pre-workouts are over-used and many people think they need them. I just drink coffee.
But I think saying "chemical" without saying which specific ingredient you take issue with, is rather silly. If you're going to take issue with a specific ingredient, tell us why. Just saying chemical literally says nothing. Water is a chemical.
I think you know exactly what I was referring to when I meant chemicals. It is loaded with garbage. Including caffeine which is garbage! Please do not get into chemistry with me as I have a minor in chemistry. I am well aware of the chemical composition of water.
Why is caffeine garbage???2 -
There's an overwhelming amount of evidence in support of caffeine having ergogenic effects.
I DO think pre-workouts are over-used and many people think they need them. I just drink coffee.
But I think saying "chemical" without saying which specific ingredient you take issue with, is rather silly. If you're going to take issue with a specific ingredient, tell us why. Just saying chemical literally says nothing. Water is a chemical.
I think you know exactly what I was referring to when I meant chemicals. It is loaded with garbage. Including caffeine which is garbage! Please do not get into chemistry with me as I have a minor in chemistry. I am well aware of the chemical composition of water.
I don't see how you are coming to the conclusion that "Caffeine is garbage". There have been numerous studies indicating that in moderation, it has several health benefits.
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/144/6/890.abstract
https://jonbarron.org/article/caffeine-health-benefits-and-health-risks
https://www.caffeineinformer.com/top-10-caffeine-health-benefits (Obviously not the greatest source)
Yes people who drink a cup or two of coffee a day that caffeine is fine. It's the people that are doing two times and three times the recommended dosage of pre-workout. Drinkng 2 NOS drinks, Drinking 7 cups of coffee a day. Out of everyone I know, I am the only one who only drinks one cup of coffee a day. Most people are upwards of 5+ their pre-workouts. NOS is used like water for a lot of people I known and see. They are taking in well above the recommended dosage of caffeine in the course of a day.
So to clarify, your issue with caffeine is specifically with people who take massive amounts of it daily?
And you also use caffeine yourself in small doses?
I am thinking along those same lines. The blanket statement made was "Caffeine is garbage". And then, it changes to "moderate caffeine is fine" which I think most would agree massive amounts of anything is not a good idea.1 -
Is there any chances this thread develops into a legit conversation about the merits of pre-workouts and some of the specific ingredients, or should I just unstar it now?
Specifically, I'd love to hear some more details about dosing as @Gallowmere1984 mentioned:Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Ehh, a few ingredients in most of them do have solid research backing up the claims, but said ingredients are few, and are usually underdosed AF in pwos. I'm considering giving Pulse a go, but since they reduced the caffeine in a reformulation, I'll need to pop a 200 mg caff tab along with it. Luckily, those are stupid cheap.
It's kind of amusing, because if you look at the clinical dosages of what works, about 90% of pwos do fall waaaaaay short, and that's assuming that the label is even accurate.
I'd also be interested in pros and cons of caffeine.
I think someone also mentioned B vitamins and whether they actually did anything other than make your skin tingle...
Regarding dosing your best bet would be to reference pre-workout ingredients in supplements that don't use prop blends and compare dosing to the available evidence at examine.com.
Examine will likely have everything well-referenced so you can compare.
A simple and completely made up example might be something like Beta Alanine -- standard dosing ranges based on evidence are in the 2-5g range. If you had a pre-workout that had .5g in it per serving this would be an example of under-dosing and you'd likely not get the full performance benefits from it.
Another example would simply be looking at caffeine dosage to make sure you're not taking a pre-workout loaded with caffeine and then drinking your usual 3 cups of coffee.
As far as ingredient effectiveness is concerned though, I'd go to examine.com first as a primary resource -- they cover effectiveness and dosing quite well.
Thanks for that... I'll poke around evidence.com for a bit.1 -
The FDA recommends 100 to 200mg a day. Most pre-workouts have between 135 235 mg per scope. Almost all of the food we eat has caffeine in it and a lot of the drinks we drink have caffeine in them. Which means we are well above are recommended dose from the FDA. Furthermore the FDA classifies caffeine as a drug.0
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The FDA recommends 100 to 200mg a day. Most pre-workouts have between 135 235 mg per scope. Almost all of the food we eat has caffeine in it and a lot of the drinks we drink have caffeine in them. Which means we are well above are recommended dose from the FDA. Furthermore the FDA classifies caffeine as a drug.
Almost all the food we eat has caffeine in it?3 -
I was hoping to learn something from this thread..
So to be clear, Caffeine is garbage, pre workouts are scams and loaded with garbage and then its people drinking 7 cups of coffee, consuming multiple doses of pre-workout NOS to be exact?
Then caffeine is fine, I guess your recommended dose is 1 or 2 cups?
And almost all our our food has caffeine in too??
My head is spinning..
4 -
These threads are always good for a laugh or two.2
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So the FDA would definitely disagree with "caffeine is garbage" as a statement then?The FDA recommends 100 to 200mg a day. Most pre-workouts have between 135 235 mg per scope. Almost all of the food we eat has caffeine in it and a lot of the drinks we drink have caffeine in them. Which means we are well above are recommended dose from the FDA. Furthermore the FDA classifies caffeine as a drug.
Aspirin and paracetamol are also drugs. Drugs =/= bad. An overdose of paracetamol is extremely nasty though.
A more considered and less extreme choice of words would save a lot of angst in your threads!
But back to your original thread..... Pre-workouts are more of a fashion and fad rather than a scam IMHO.
I simply don't get why people what or need to be hyped up or over-stimulated before working out but each to their own I suppose.
Maybe my experience is coloured because I'm virtually a non-responder to caffeine, to get any benefit (reduced fatigue) on a very long cycle ride I have to completely avoid caffeine at least a week before the event.
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I am confused too... *Anything* in excess can be harmful... I.e. water is essential to life, has MANY health benefits and every doctor on the planet will tell you to drink more of it. But drink too much too fast and it can kill you.
Pick your poison
Personally, for those early morning workouts, I set an alarm for about 20 minutes before I really want up - then take a caffeine pill or two (sitting by my bedside with a glass of water) then go back to sleep. When my real alarm goes off 20 min later, the caffeine has kicked in and its much easier to get out of bed! If you want to cut back on caffeine or other PWOs, just use orange juice - it can act very similar for a short time (probably just the sugar...)0 -
The FDA recommends 100 to 200mg a day. Most pre-workouts have between 135 235 mg per scope. Almost all of the food we eat has caffeine in it and a lot of the drinks we drink have caffeine in them. Which means we are well above are recommended dose from the FDA. Furthermore the FDA classifies caffeine as a drug.
Wondering where this number came from...
Q. What is currently considered a safe amount of daily caffeine?
A. For healthy adults FDA has cited 400 milligrams a day—that's about four or five cups of coffee—as an amount not generally associated with dangerous, negative effects. FDA has not set a level for children, but the American Academy of Pediatrics discourages the consumption of caffeine and other stimulants by children and adolescents. We need to continue to look at what are acceptable levels.
We're particularly concerned about children and adolescents and the responsibility FDA and the food industry have to protect public health and respect social norms that suggest we shouldn't be marketing stimulants, such as caffeine, to our children. https://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm350570.htm
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