Acupuncture- real or hooey?
Replies
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I tried it once and had to go to the ER with a full-blown panic attack. Not for me it seems.0
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I find acupuncture to be quite relaxing...much the same way I find a massage to be relaxing. I think it depends on what you mean by hooey...if you think it's some kind of magic cure for all kinds of diseases then you're probably in for disappointment. It is what it is...I just think people make it out to be more.0
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I tried acupuncture to regulate my hormones and it worked wonders. My blood test results showed major improvements after about 6-7 treatments.
I also tried acupuncture for lower back pain and it really helped. I could barely walk or bend over prior to having the first treatment. After 3 sessions the pain was pretty much gone.
It's also very relaxing, I have fallen asleep during most of my sessions.0 -
Well my opinion is that acupuncture proves that placebo treatment works.
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
i had acupuncture done for my knee back in the day when i used to run. it worked so well, i had lots of fluid in my knee and pain all the time, and when i got acupuncture done it helped way better than physical therapy or medication ever did. unfortunately it was not covered on insurance and became too expensive, so i could no longer receive it. i loved it though. turns out that when i stopped running my knee got a million times better, so i guess that was a cheaper but sadder alternative0
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I dont know. can you? I just agreed to not using acupuncture as an emergency treatment or would u use acupuncture as an emergency treatmentMy child was having a serious asthma week a few weeks ago. We had been to urgent care and the allergist that morning and his breathing was still labored. He had an acupuncture appointment already so we just kept it. We walked in and the dr runs out "I hear asthma" and takes him directly back. She breaks her "routine" and puts the needle in his asthma spot first. Within the minute his breathing returns to a normal range. His next appointment at the doctor he makes a 100 on his breathing test -- something my kid doesn't do.
My daughter had a similar experience (see my ealier post) . I recommend ANYONE whose child is diagnosed try it.
Please, please, please any parent whose child has asthma DO NOT use acupuncture as an emergency treatment if their symptoms worsen. Children deteriorate very quickly, asthma KILLS children frequently throughout the world. I have seen this happen in emergency departments and the later you leave it to get medical assistance the harder it is to save them. An acupuncturist can not intubate and ventilate your child when their lungs shut down.
This
Would you really risk status asthmaticus for acupuncture?
Can you read? Or do you prefer to just ask hypothetical questions?0 -
I've had acupuncture for a variety of ailments. It did nothing for colds and flu. It helped with difficult periods and PMS. It was nearly miraculous when I had injured my back, and chiropractic failed.
I've never tried it for mental ailments (like overcoming cravings for tobacco or sweets).0 -
Hooey.
From the excellent blog Science Based Medicine:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/acupuncture-does-not-work-for-back-pain/
"A new study which randomized 638 adults to either standard acupuncture, individualized acupuncture, placebo acupuncture using tooth picks that did not penetrate the skin, and standard therapy found exactly what previous evidence has also suggested – it does not seem to matter where you stick the needles or even if you stick the needles through the skin. The only reasonable scientific conclusion to draw from this is that acupuncture does not work."
Some points about Acupuncture:
1) Acupuncture is said to work by "balancing you Chi". Chi come from a pre-scientific view about how the body works. While this make be a useful philosophical concept, it is not a medical one. Chi does not exist the same way insulin exists. You cannot balance it. It will not help regulate your hormones.
2) All of the positive studies on acupuncture come from places that design their studies poorly and never publish any negative results. The better designed and properly blinded studies all show no effect.
3) You may feel better after an acupuncture session. Most people really enjoy going to a practitioner, having their concerns addressed, and undergoing some sort of intervention. However, it doesn't matter what that intervention is. It could be poking you with needles or toothpicks or waving magic crystals over you. It also won't do much for you medically other than create a placebo effect.
I would suggest checking out more articles on the Science Based Medicine blog on acupuncture. I find it is a really good resource for this kind of thing. It has well researched and cited articles written by physicians and researches who want to make sure science is the foundation of medicine.
All the fully -convinced people with no personal experience on a given subject are so arrogant...and sad....and ridiculous....and sad...and arrogant...(did I mention ridiculous? :yawn: (Or does your version of "science" include accepting hearsay as fact?)
Go get some acupuncture treatments from an experienced Chinese doctor, and THEN discuss the subject....Until you have had acupuncture, you're just another parrot.
Quoting scientific studies is not parroting in the pejorative sense of the term. People who use anecdotal evidence as "proof" that something is across-the-board-inherently efficacious are far more parrot-like than those using valid scientific studies to form their opinions.
Also, placebo effect. That's why acupuncture "works."0 -
Hooey.
From the excellent blog Science Based Medicine:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/acupuncture-does-not-work-for-back-pain/
"A new study which randomized 638 adults to either standard acupuncture, individualized acupuncture, placebo acupuncture using tooth picks that did not penetrate the skin, and standard therapy found exactly what previous evidence has also suggested – it does not seem to matter where you stick the needles or even if you stick the needles through the skin. The only reasonable scientific conclusion to draw from this is that acupuncture does not work."
Some points about Acupuncture:
1) Acupuncture is said to work by "balancing you Chi". Chi come from a pre-scientific view about how the body works. While this make be a useful philosophical concept, it is not a medical one. Chi does not exist the same way insulin exists. You cannot balance it. It will not help regulate your hormones.
2) All of the positive studies on acupuncture come from places that design their studies poorly and never publish any negative results. The better designed and properly blinded studies all show no effect.
3) You may feel better after an acupuncture session. Most people really enjoy going to a practitioner, having their concerns addressed, and undergoing some sort of intervention. However, it doesn't matter what that intervention is. It could be poking you with needles or toothpicks or waving magic crystals over you. It also won't do much for you medically other than create a placebo effect.
I would suggest checking out more articles on the Science Based Medicine blog on acupuncture. I find it is a really good resource for this kind of thing. It has well researched and cited articles written by physicians and researches who want to make sure science is the foundation of medicine.
It's foolish to form opinions about without knowledge.
Personal experience:
1) My daughter (at 4 years old) was diagnosed with asthma She was being poisoned by inhaler steriods, vomiting after treatment, etc...It was horrible. ..Then, cured (c-u-r-e-d) of the disease with acupuncture and herbs from a Chinese-trained doctor. Cured.
2) I had a 110 lb steel hatch slip at work and jam my neck, and within a year there were days I literally COULD NOT turn my head, period. Chiropractic failed...Physical terapy made it worse....Cortisone injections, temporary relief.....Then my gongfu teacher introduced me to HIS teacher, who with one (1) acupunture session fixed my neck.....Been 16 years now.
Sigh. Looking into the scientific studies examining the question at hand constitutes forming and gathering knowledge, knowledge you then use to form rational opinions. Using purely anecdotal evidence in isolation of available studies creates a very limited base of knowledge, so limited that you are very likely to make incorrect assumptions (and thus form incorrect opinions) about the truth of the whatever issue you're making claims about. There are so many factors in anecdotal situations that we can never measure or detect that anecdotes cannot be relied upon as the final word in whether something like acupuncture "works."0 -
Personally, I lean toward the hooey side of the spectrum.
I had acupuncture at a college of chiropractic here for back problems over a nine month period ... unfortunately, they also did a lot of other stuff, including teaching me exercises for my back. That was about 20 years ago, and I've had few problems with the lower back since ... but since they did so many other things (it was a teaching school), it's not clear what did the trick.
I think the exercising and weight loss I've done since have done more for the back problems than anything else. I've had problems with upper back stiffness (age and inactivity related), and exercise (especially Pilates with a personal trainer) and therapeutic massage has helped a great deal with this over the past year.
Don't underestimate the placebo effect, either, or the possibility that something else going on at the time had a positive influence rather than (or in addition to) the acupuncture. Correlation is not causation, and personal testimonies aren't particularly useful in "proving" something scientifically.0 -
I love acupuncture. When I was pregnant I had a choice between taking a mild narcotic for my headaches or trying acupuncture. The acupuncture worked like a charm, I no longer get chronic migranes, my son is 3.5.0
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:devil: :frown: :glasses: :flowerforyou:
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Hooey.
From the excellent blog Science Based Medicine:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/acupuncture-does-not-work-for-back-pain/
"A new study which randomized 638 adults to either standard acupuncture, individualized acupuncture, placebo acupuncture using tooth picks that did not penetrate the skin, and standard therapy found exactly what previous evidence has also suggested – it does not seem to matter where you stick the needles or even if you stick the needles through the skin. The only reasonable scientific conclusion to draw from this is that acupuncture does not work."
Some points about Acupuncture:
1) Acupuncture is said to work by "balancing you Chi". Chi come from a pre-scientific view about how the body works. While this make be a useful philosophical concept, it is not a medical one. Chi does not exist the same way insulin exists. You cannot balance it. It will not help regulate your hormones.
2) All of the positive studies on acupuncture come from places that design their studies poorly and never publish any negative results. The better designed and properly blinded studies all show no effect.
3) You may feel better after an acupuncture session. Most people really enjoy going to a practitioner, having their concerns addressed, and undergoing some sort of intervention. However, it doesn't matter what that intervention is. It could be poking you with needles or toothpicks or waving magic crystals over you. It also won't do much for you medically other than create a placebo effect.
I would suggest checking out more articles on the Science Based Medicine blog on acupuncture. I find it is a really good resource for this kind of thing. It has well researched and cited articles written by physicians and researches who want to make sure science is the foundation of medicine.
It's foolish to form opinions about without knowledge.
Personal experience:
1) My daughter (at 4 years old) was diagnosed with asthma She was being poisoned by inhaler steriods, vomiting after treatment, etc...It was horrible. ..Then, cured (c-u-r-e-d) of the disease with acupuncture and herbs from a Chinese-trained doctor. Cured.
2) I had a 110 lb steel hatch slip at work and jam my neck, and within a year there were days I literally COULD NOT turn my head, period. Chiropractic failed...Physical terapy made it worse....Cortisone injections, temporary relief.....Then my gongfu teacher introduced me to HIS teacher, who with one (1) acupunture session fixed my neck.....Been 16 years now.
Sigh. Looking into the scientific studies examining the question at hand constitutes forming and gathering knowledge, knowledge you then use to form rational opinions. Using purely anecdotal evidence in isolation of available studies creates a very limited base of knowledge, so limited that you are very likely to make incorrect assumptions (and thus form incorrect opinions) about the truth of the whatever issue you're making claims about. There are so many factors in anecdotal situations that we can never measure or detect that anecdotes cannot be relied upon as the final word in whether something like acupuncture "works."
I usually am in line with as many scientific research studies as you can cram up your *kitten*, but on this one I have to disagree. I believe that there's a reason why it's been around so long, and I don't believe that's accidental. I was a skeptic, and it worked for me. This is one that I've found just as much research confirming as denying. Maybe it is coincidence, maybe I just take better care of myself (but I didn't for the first year), but all my chronic illnesses went away and I haven't had a serious infection requiring medical help in that time. It's anecdotal, but the compilation of anecdotal accounts I have is enough to make me a believer.0 -
Maybe it is coincidence, maybe I just take better care of myself (but I didn't for the first year), but all my chronic illnesses went away and I haven't had a serious infection requiring medical help in that time. It's anecdotal, but the compilation of anecdotal accounts I have is enough to make me a believer.
One of my grandmothers was part Irish, and she had all kinds of stories from the old country about banshees, leprechauns, changelings, pukas and the like, some of which had been handed down for God knows how many generations. These stories have been around for a long time and are anecdotal in nature ... but that doesn't make them true in an objective sense. The stories did, however, make my grandmother a believer.
To be able to evaluate whether or not acupuncture is objectively real requires more than anecdotes; for one thing, there are a multitude of variables that need to be controlled or allowed for in statistical analysis of a phenomenon. If you made other lifestyle changes in the same timeframe (consciously or not), they may have been related to the results. Plus, correlation isn't causation. I'll give an example: cigarette smoking and drinking alcohol are correlated with each other: more drinkers tend to smoke than non-drinkers. But that's not the same as causation: it doesn't demonstrate that cigarettes cause drinking, or vice versa.
I see acupuncture in the "couldn't hurt" category, like the sour cherry extract tabs I take when I feel gout coming on, and the Zicam I take when I feel a cold coming on. There's no convincing studies these things work, and although I realize the lessening and shortening of symptoms I seem to experience might be coincidence (some gout attacks and coldish symptoms don't last very long), they make me feel like I'm more in control of things, and that's worth something to me. But I know my personal experience isn't "proof" or objective evidence, and it may all be coincidence and a placebo effect (and the placebo effect can do some amazing things). Of course, the placebo effect is likely to work as long as you can still believe there's a chance the acupuncture or whatever is really doing something. Too much knowledge can be a dangerous thing.
So if doing acupuncture seems to be a positive thing in your life, go for it like I go for my bottle of cherry extract when I feel a twinge ... maybe my cherry extract does the trick, or maybe it's just a coincidence, or maybe a powerful placebo effect kicks in and my body stops the gout attack in its tracks. But I'm prepared to dump the cherry extract if research shows it doesn't do any good and the studies that suggest it does like the UC-Davis study are flawed. I've adjusted my dietary supplements a number of times over the years for this reason. For me, and based on my experience with acupuncture, I have no reason to believe it had a positive impact on my life, so I'm unlikely to repeat it.0 -
Maybe it is coincidence, maybe I just take better care of myself (but I didn't for the first year), but all my chronic illnesses went away and I haven't had a serious infection requiring medical help in that time. It's anecdotal, but the compilation of anecdotal accounts I have is enough to make me a believer.
One of my grandmothers was part Irish, and she had all kinds of stories from the old country about banshees, leprechauns, changelings, pukas and the like, some of which had been handed down for God knows how many generations. These stories have been around for a long time and are anecdotal in nature ... but that doesn't make them true in an objective sense. The stories did, however, make my grandmother a believer.
To be able to evaluate whether or not acupuncture is objectively real requires more than anecdotes; for one thing, there are a multitude of variables that need to be controlled or allowed for in statistical analysis of a phenomenon. If you made other lifestyle changes in the same timeframe (consciously or not), they may have been related to the results. Plus, correlation isn't causation. I'll give an example: cigarette smoking and drinking alcohol are correlated with each other: more drinkers tend to smoke than non-drinkers. But that's not the same as causation: it doesn't demonstrate that cigarettes cause drinking, or vice versa.
I see acupuncture in the "couldn't hurt" category, like the sour cherry extract tabs I take when I feel gout coming on, and the Zicam I take when I feel a cold coming on. There's no convincing studies these things work, and although I realize the lessening and shortening of symptoms I seem to experience might be coincidence (some gout attacks and coldish symptoms don't last very long), they make me feel like I'm more in control of things, and that's worth something to me. But I know my personal experience isn't "proof" or objective evidence, and it may all be coincidence and a placebo effect (and the placebo effect can do some amazing things). Of course, the placebo effect is likely to work as long as you can still believe there's a chance the acupuncture or whatever is really doing something. Too much knowledge can be a dangerous thing.
So if doing acupuncture seems to be a positive thing in your life, go for it like I go for my bottle of cherry extract when I feel a twinge ... maybe my cherry extract does the trick, or maybe it's just a coincidence, or maybe a powerful placebo effect kicks in and my body stops the gout attack in its tracks. But I'm prepared to dump the cherry extract if research shows it doesn't do any good and the studies that suggest it does like the UC-Davis study are flawed. I've adjusted my dietary supplements a number of times over the years for this reason. For me, and based on my experience with acupuncture, I have no reason to believe it had a positive impact on my life, so I'm unlikely to repeat it.
You have to excuse me if I don't understand what old wives tales have to do with Nervous system stimulation And manipulation. The premise behind acupuncture Is similar to that of Chemicals (medicines) that either block or increase chemicals in the synapse between your axons (brain) or nerves (outside if the brain). Acupuncture isn't just about randomly sticking needles in the body, but about using your body's basic chemistry to promote healing and assist with pain management. I think it's pretty ignorant to discount the benefits of a thing as simply being a placebo, and likening it to banshees, just because its not conventional western medicine, especially when conventional western medicine is driven so heavily by big pharma (who definitely doesn't benefit from the promotion of holistic therapies).0 -
You have to excuse me if I don't understand what old wives tales have to do with Nervous system stimulation And manipulation. The premise behind acupuncture Is similar to that of Chemicals (medicines) that either block or increase chemicals in the synapse between your axons (brain) or nerves (outside if the brain).
Acupuncture is about controlling the flow of qi through the meridians. These have no more physical reality than the four humors which were used in medieval Western medicine to explain sickness and the mind, or the luminiferous aether which was proposed as the medium through which light propagates. Or for that matter, banshees and leprechauns.
The link to neurotransmitters is a modern hypothesis to explain the mechanism behind acupuncture's "efficacy" and has no relationship to the original hypothesis that it's all about invisible qi and invisible meridians moving it around the body. Because science is the framework or mythos we moderns use to explain the world, devotees of concepts who are invested in them often slap a modern "veneer" over an ancient concept to make it more palatable to moderns.
Thus, demons become UFO aliens or transdimensional beings, hauntings can be "proven" by measuring electrical/magnetic energy, creationism becomes "scientific", and acupuncture becomes a technique for manipulating neurotransmitters. Maybe there's something to acupuncture, maybe not, but there's no definitive and convincing set of research studies I'm aware of that tips the scales in either direction.
I remain ... the AcuSkeptic. 0 -
Well my opinion is that acupuncture proves that placebo treatment works.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
....my opinion is that anyone with 15,000 plus posts has too much time on their hands...0 -
This is my story, and I don't know if it has anything to do with acupuncture or not.
I was trying to get pregnant for a couple years with no luck. I also have mild PCOS. I was about to start taking fertility meds, my family doctor suggested acupuncture, she said that it's helped people with fertility issues. So I went for a few sessions and 3 months later I found out I was pregnant.0 -
I have fibromyalgia and get migraines that have lasted for up to 2.5 weeks, I tried acupunture because nothing was helping and afterbsefering with a migraine gor over 2 weeks I was ready to try anything. Acupunture immediately took the migraine away and though I still get migrained they dont last weeks anymore I think 4 days is the longest since then aboug 6 yrs ago. I tried it for pain from yhe fibro but it didnt seem to help the pain, but after losing 112lbs the pain is a lot better now0
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I used it before my disc replacement surgery to help manage pain. Worked for me but make sure you have an experienced docor or technician performing it. It's a tool to consider.0
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Hooey.
From the excellent blog Science Based Medicine:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/acupuncture-does-not-work-for-back-pain/
"A new study which randomized 638 adults to either standard acupuncture, individualized acupuncture, placebo acupuncture using tooth picks that did not penetrate the skin, and standard therapy found exactly what previous evidence has also suggested – it does not seem to matter where you stick the needles or even if you stick the needles through the skin. The only reasonable scientific conclusion to draw from this is that acupuncture does not work."
Some points about Acupuncture:
1) Acupuncture is said to work by "balancing you Chi". Chi come from a pre-scientific view about how the body works. While this make be a useful philosophical concept, it is not a medical one. Chi does not exist the same way insulin exists. You cannot balance it. It will not help regulate your hormones.
2) All of the positive studies on acupuncture come from places that design their studies poorly and never publish any negative results. The better designed and properly blinded studies all show no effect.
3) You may feel better after an acupuncture session. Most people really enjoy going to a practitioner, having their concerns addressed, and undergoing some sort of intervention. However, it doesn't matter what that intervention is. It could be poking you with needles or toothpicks or waving magic crystals over you. It also won't do much for you medically other than create a placebo effect.
I would suggest checking out more articles on the Science Based Medicine blog on acupuncture. I find it is a really good resource for this kind of thing. It has well researched and cited articles written by physicians and researches who want to make sure science is the foundation of medicine.
All the fully -convinced people with no personal experience on a given subject are so arrogant...and sad....and ridiculous....and sad...and arrogant...(did I mention ridiculous? :yawn: (Or does your version of "science" include accepting hearsay as fact?)
Go get some acupuncture treatments from an experienced Chinese doctor, and THEN discuss the subject....Until you have had acupuncture, you're just another parrot.
Quoting scientific studies is not parroting in the pejorative sense of the term. People who use anecdotal evidence as "proof" that something is across-the-board-inherently efficacious are far more parrot-like than those using valid scientific studies to form their opinions.
Also, placebo effect. That's why acupuncture "works."
You box-thinkers and your "anecdotal" issues.
A study in a lab you've never been in, conducted by researchers you never met, using methodology you have never examined...is also "anecdotal"
To recap: A scientific study you read about, never experienced yourself (which makes it anecdotal) , yet choose to take as gospel makes you...a parrot.0 -
my wife swears by it. she has really bad backpain, and there are definitely areas that 'release' the pain. i've tried it several times myself, and i thought it was very effective as well for my specific injury at the time.0
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Hooey.
From the excellent blog Science Based Medicine:
you do realize most studies, think tanks, and other scientific 'hooey' are bought and paid for, correct? i'm not saying none are accurate, but you can't trust them. if it affects a profitable industry or product, you can find a study saying something is great, terrible, or 'hooey' depending on who funded the research. as a layperson, it's almost impossible to determine which ones are truthful and which ones are legit. even gov't agencies like the fda and usda are often corrupted.
you say:
"2) All of the positive studies on acupuncture come from places that design their studies poorly and never publish any negative results."
I say:
"2) All of the negative studies on acupuncture come from places that are highly financially vested in Western medicine and exist to deride all alternative medicines not owned and patented by big pharm."
what we do know - it's worked for countless thousands for a very, very long time. if it works does it really matter if it's a placebo effect or not, does it?
and here's something -- why not try it? I've been to people that aren't particularly knowledgeable at it, and i've been to experts. I can most definitely tell the difference, and i can most definitely tell when a specific needle is 'working'.0 -
I was in the same situation as you, very poor cycles, in fact nearly non-existent. I was very hesitant about acupuncture, but it worked and things began to normalise and then I got pregnant, im a true believer now, and its was amazing for stress and relaxation 0
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I loved it...it brought WAY more then just toxins to the surface. I was literally emotional and crying when I got into my truck after. I went in for relaxation and a plethora of other things, no physical pain though. My MIL goes in because she ripped her ankle to *kitten* falling down the stairs, she said it's the best thing she's ever done and her ankle feels great.0
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I have had acupuncture to help with a back injury; my physiotherapist (fully trained and qualified to administer) identified that acupuncture was better at releasing deep muscle knots (not the exact words she used) than just using stretching and body pressure. It definitely worked for me. Not sure about its use for hormonal imbalances etc but it def helped with my injury.
sounds like IMS which uses acupuncture needles in muscle trigger points but isn't technically acupuncture I have this done for my overly tight muscles and it totally works! Plus I love that it is a therapy that I can tell if it is needed or not as soon as she sticks the needle in. If the muscle doesn't cramp IMS won't do anything for my back pain etc (but it always cramps for me when my physio does it lol) 0 -
I will also say that traditional acupuncture did not help my back problems (but IMS did) but I do believe that acupuncture does work and isn;t phooey, and really what does it hurt to try it?
I have an aunt that practices reiki in her spare time (not as a job, she makes no money from it) and everyone in the family swears by her when they have pain issues.0 -
I have no idea if it would help with hormone issues.
That being said, I threw my back out a few years back, badly... I could barely walk. I had to roll out of bed in the morning because I couldn't sit straight up. I couldn't stand straight to save my life. It was agonizing, and nothing was helping. I decided to try it because I was desperate. I thought it was a load of crap, but I had nothing to lose at that point. After 1 twenty min session, the lady asked me to try to sit up straight. I sat up like I had never been hurt. I was completely back to normal...after 20 minutes.
It's worth a shot.0 -
Well, I'll say I've never had acupuncture. I have, however, had nerve conduction studies. I had needles stuck into various points and the machines were reading the 'electrical' current. I mean, you could hear the static and see the needles moving on the graphs. This blew my mind. And this is mainstream medicine, folks...so the notion that putting needles into some of these pathways for therapeutic effect doesn't seem crazy to me.0
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