Can you explain what is going on with strength training?

Ailorn

So if muscles can't be built while eating at a deficit why should we do strength training while trying to lose fat/weight? What's going on when we do strength training while eating at a deficit vs eating to maintain or when eating extra? I know when we do cardio with a deficit we burn energy that the body will be pulling from fat but when and how. I know that calories in vs calories out ultimately dictates mass but is there any difference in how the energy is burned when we are "fasting" or eating more regular meals. Can someone explain the chemistry to me?

SnuggleSmacks

A. The jury is still out on whether muscle can be built at a deficit. The general consensus is that beginners can and do build muscle at a deficit, particularly when lifting heavy and ensuring enough protein is consumed. Also, keeping the deficit low, 300 calories or less per day, will improve the likelihood of increasing muscle.

B. Even if you subscribe to the die-hard advocates of zero muscle building while on a deficit, working your muscles will help protect them from being used as energy. When your body runs out of fuel for the day because you ate a deficit and your body needs 500 more calories than you ate, it's going to cannibalize your tissues...either fat or muscle. Working your muscles tells your body that you need muscle, so it should use the fat instead. That's an oversimplification, of course, but you get the idea.

Cortelli

SnuggleSmacks wrote: »

A. The jury is still out on whether muscle can be built at a deficit. The general consensus is that beginners can and do build muscle at a deficit, particularly when lifting heavy and ensuring enough protein is consumed. Also, keeping the deficit low, 300 calories or less per day, will improve the likelihood of increasing muscle.

B. Even if you subscribe to the die-hard advocates of zero muscle building while on a deficit, working your muscles will help protect them from being used as energy. When your body runs out of fuel for the day because you ate a deficit and your body needs 500 more calories than you ate, it's going to cannibalize your tissues...either fat or muscle. Working your muscles tells your body that you need muscle, so it should use the fat instead. That's an oversimplification, of course, but you get the idea.

In addition to the excellent reply above:

C. Strength training, like cardio, also requires energy (i.e., burns calories).

D. Even if you can't build muscle (lots of beginners can in small amounts), unless you are an intermediate / advanced lifter, you can build a *lot* of strength even without adding mass. A good strength baseline will help add muscle mass later if that is a longer-term goal.

E. Just to emphasize SnuggleSmack's point "B" -- resistance training and adequate protein can greatly reduce the amount of lean body mass (including muscle) that one losses when eating at a deficit. Muscle is so difficult to add for most people, that preserving what you can when losing weight (i.e., doing everything to skew your losses to your fat stores and not your lean body mass) will be one of the better things you can do that not enough people on MFP do.

Nothing like getting to or near your goal weight and still finding you're carrying more fat than you expected or than you like, because throughout your loss you were losing equal proportions of fat and LBM (or at least, losing less fat and more LBM than you otherwise would).

dbmata

Ailorn wrote: »

So if muscles can't be built while eating at a deficit why should we do strength training while trying to lose fat/weight? What's going on when we do strength training while eating at a deficit vs eating to maintain or when eating extra? I know when we do cardio with a deficit we burn energy that the body will be pulling from fat but when and how. I know that calories in vs calories out ultimately dictates mass but is there any difference in how the energy is burned when we are "fasting" or eating more regular meals. Can someone explain the chemistry to me?

You taking a piss here?

There is more to strength training than hypertrophy. You can increase strength, you can increase power, you can increase endurance, and you can increase hypertrophy. Depends on goals and programming.

The only one that is hampered, albeit unsure how much, by a dietary deficit is hypertrophy. You can still make sweetgainzbro with the others, particularly if you're a new lifter, less so if you're already a trained individual.

From what I've read, there is a difference in what is tapped for steady state cardio when fasted, but energy wise with lifting, I've not read much on that. scholar.google.com is where I'd go, along with t-nation as a starting point.

There's a poster here, Sam-I-Am, that seems to have this figured out quite well, ask him.

mustgetmuscles1

In addition to what the others have said.

http://www.cdc.gov/physicalactivity/growingstronger/why/
http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/fitness/in-depth/strength-training/art-20046670

It also has cardio vascular benefits that get overlooked.
http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/101/7/828/T1.expansion.html

Health benefits of resistance training

Physical and mental health benefits that can be achieved through resistance training include:
improved muscle strength and tone – to protect your joints from injury. It also helps you maintain flexibility and balance and helps you remain independent as you age
weight management and increased muscle-to-fat ratio – as you gain muscle, your body burns more kilojoules when at rest
greater stamina – as you grow stronger, you won’t get tired as easily
prevention or control of chronic conditions such as diabetes, heart disease, arthritis, back pain, depression and obesity
pain management
improved mobility and balance
improved posture
decreased risk of injury
increased bone density and strength and reduced risk of osteoporosis
improved sense of wellbeing – resistance training may boost your self-confidence, improve your body image and your mood
a better night’s sleep and avoidance of insomnia
increased self-esteem
enhanced performance of everyday tasks.

I know a few people that were surprised by the bolded section and they switch from just doing cardio.


The best bang for your buck IMO.

Ailorn

Thanks so much for all the answers I'll certainly look into those links more. It's motivating for me to understand what exactly is going on when I exercise. The results seem that much more closer if I know I'm on the right track and just keep going. I love knowing the mechanics how and why it works. I really didn't consider there being different aspects to strength training other than muscle mass... and that's really silly now that I type it "out loud." If anyone else has more insight into strength training please do post more.

browndog1410

I don't believe that you can't build on a deficit. I have cut my calorie intake down to about 1500 for the last 2 months in an attempt to burn fat. I have also maintained my exercise regimen. I've built my arms up by about 1/2 inch (16 inches), added muscle to my shoulders, and my shirts don't fit due to my back (see my pic). To add to the issue I follow the 16/8 fast (only eat between 12:00hrs and 20:00 hrs) and train first thing in the morning (0630) in a fasted state. The thing is to drink 10g BCAA before and shortly after training and mid morning. It works. Check out the website www.leangains.com Martin Berkhan describes the nuts and bolts of this approach. It has worked for me.

DeadsAndDoritos

You taking a piss here?

This made me chuckle. "Taking the piss" and "taking a piss" are completely different things.

philwrightfitness

When you are in a deficit the body responds by not only burning fat but by also reducing muscle mass (upto 40% of the weight lost can be muscle), this is thought to happen because muscle mass burns calories and the response to less calories is to try and rebalance your physiology to meet the new calorie intake. When you weight train there is a hormonal response, the hormones released increase fat utilisation and put the muscles into an anabolic or growth state. Hence weight training and calorie deficit burns more fat as a percentage than a calorie deficit alone, as the body is resisting the loss of your muscles.... A bit simplified but roughly true lol

dbmata

sucampbeN wrote: »

You taking a piss here?

This made me chuckle. "Taking the piss" and "taking a piss" are completely different things.

Yeah, I've always heard it used by taking a piss, by my expat friends, unless they modify it with an added subject, then it's taking the piss out of me.

I like how it sounds.

ponycyndi

philwrightfitness wrote: »

When you are in a deficit the body responds by not only burning fat but by also reducing muscle mass (upto 40% of the weight lost can be muscle), this is thought to happen because muscle mass burns calories and the response to less calories is to try and rebalance your physiology to meet the new calorie intake. When you weight train there is a hormonal response, the hormones released increase fat utilisation and put the muscles into an anabolic or growth state. Hence weight training and calorie deficit burns more fat as a percentage than a calorie deficit alone, as the body is resisting the loss of your muscles.... A bit simplified but roughly true lol

Thank you for this. The best (and short!) explanation I've seen here.