"Progressive overload" for abdominal/core strength training

numinousnymph

I've been doing strength training for about a year now, and have noticed some significant gains as far as my upper and lower body goes. But doing core workouts I find more tricky... I have been able to hold planks a bit longer, but I'm not sure how to gauge progressive overload for abs. Is it just doing the specific exercise until you feel you're reaching the point of failure? I feel like I have been doing that, but I also gauge next-day soreness as a measure of if I worked my muscles to the point that encourages growth or at least sustaining the muscle -- and I've noticed I still haven't been feeling any soreness afterwards EVEN THOUGH I feel I work them hard. Does that mean I'm not doing enough? I'm also thinking it could just be that I'm not doing core workouts often enough -- I tend to only do them 1 - 2x a week on average. But my question really is how you gauge when you've done a "good" ab workout?

MityMax96

Here are my thoughts...
1) You can't guage soreness as work put in....can be an indicator, but I wouldn't rely on the "sore" feeling. Reason being, if you are doing a low rep range for like chest, at heavy weight....the next day you aren't all that sore. If you do low weight, high reps, then you very likely will be sore. So did you not properly work chest at high weight/low rep?? Of course you did, just a different style of work.

2) I do my abs 2x/week (sometimes 3). Something I am gonna start doing, and have been quasi doing it now is one day doing static hold type routines...so L-Sits, Planks, Side Planks
The other day I will do leg lifts, reverse crunches, crunches and cable crunches.....
I want to give that a go for a while and see how I do with that.

But start getting into an ab routine, and track things....
Increase reps or sets
If you are using weights (like a weighted crunch), go up in weight.

Also keep in mind, if you are doing some of the basic compound lifts and stuff (OHP, Squats, DLs) they incorporate the core.
So when you perform those, try to make sure you are tight in the core, through your range of motion.
Abs will be there when you cut.

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MityMax96

I may add these into my static hold days: The Pallof Hold

@MrM27
One way I can think of to do a progressive over load for plank is to grab a weight and set it on your back
increase time holding plank
do push-up position
So there are some ways in which you can create more stress/stimulation with planks

SezxyStef

I like most others don't do a specific ab workout...my core strength has come from my compound lifts.

As for doing planks yah okay but is that all you do? weighted planks(can be hard to get but can be done)? side planks? situps? leg raises? hanging leg raises?

MityMax96

http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2013/03000/Integration_Core_Exercises_Elicit_Greater_Muscle.5.aspx

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MityMax96

That works also.

Sam_I_Am77

Yeah, quite a few ways for planks like the above posters said.
1. add weight some how
2. add time
3. add sets
4. do some kind of circuit with no rest,something like... right side plank, left side plank, front plank, superman and just rinse & repeat for a couple circuits
- adjust length of time on the hold
- reduce rest periods
5. Try harder planks like a front plank with hip extension. Basically do a front plank and hold one leg off the ground (parallel to the floor)
6. 1 legged glute bridge. Not a plank but another way to work the core

Other that can be done with a cable device that are anti-rotational...
1. cable chops (standing or kneeling - vary for difficulty)
2. cable lifts (standing or kneeling - vary for difficulty)
3. trunk rotation
4. Palloff Press

Compound lifts to require some degree of stabilization from the core, so you shouldn't need to do a lot of extra core work but do some; if anything for the purpose of injury prevention.

Azdak

Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »

Yeah, quite a few ways for planks like the above posters said.
1. add weight some how
2. add time
3. add sets
4. do some kind of circuit with no rest,something like... right side plank, left side plank, front plank, superman and just rinse & repeat for a couple circuits
- adjust length of time on the hold
- reduce rest periods
5. Try harder planks like a front plank with hip extension. Basically do a front plank and hold one leg off the ground (parallel to the floor)
6. 1 legged glute bridge. Not a plank but another way to work the core

Other that can be done with a cable device that are anti-rotational...
1. cable chops (standing or kneeling - vary for difficulty)
2. cable lifts (standing or kneeling - vary for difficulty)
3. trunk rotation
4. Palloff Press

Compound lifts to require some degree of stabilization from the core, so you shouldn't need to do a lot of extra core work but do some; if anything for the purpose of injury prevention.

I personally think that, after a certain point, doing planks does little more than improve the ability to do planks--even with the variations you describe (I know you were listing examples, not necessarily endorsing them).

All I know is that doing squats, DLs, Military presses, etc have improved my ability to perform planks, but doing planks has never improved my ability to do squats, DLs, MPs.

I much prefer either incorporating core work into regular lifts as well as the anti-rotational exercises you list. Those are all mainstays of my routines with my clients.

JeffseekingV

Azdak wrote: »

Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »

Yeah, quite a few ways for planks like the above posters said.
1. add weight some how
2. add time
3. add sets
4. do some kind of circuit with no rest,something like... right side plank, left side plank, front plank, superman and just rinse & repeat for a couple circuits
- adjust length of time on the hold
- reduce rest periods
5. Try harder planks like a front plank with hip extension. Basically do a front plank and hold one leg off the ground (parallel to the floor)
6. 1 legged glute bridge. Not a plank but another way to work the core

Other that can be done with a cable device that are anti-rotational...
1. cable chops (standing or kneeling - vary for difficulty)
2. cable lifts (standing or kneeling - vary for difficulty)
3. trunk rotation
4. Palloff Press

Compound lifts to require some degree of stabilization from the core, so you shouldn't need to do a lot of extra core work but do some; if anything for the purpose of injury prevention.

I personally think that, after a certain point, doing planks does little more than improve the ability to do planks--even with the variations you describe (I know you were listing examples, not necessarily endorsing them).

All I know is that doing squats, DLs, Military presses, etc have improved my ability to perform planks, but doing planks has never improved my ability to do squats, DLs, MPs.

I much prefer either incorporating core work into regular lifts as well as the anti-rotational exercises you list. Those are all mainstays of my routines with my clients.

Agreed. I think in order to improve strength of the core, one will have to some movements that increase muscle mass in those areas. Static moves like planks might not help with this

singingflutelady

I absolutely love Pallof Presses and Pallof isoholds

LolBroScience

Ab wheel rollouts

Sam_I_Am77

Azdak wrote: »

Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »

I personally think that, after a certain point, doing planks does little more than improve the ability to do planks--even with the variations you describe (I know you were listing examples, not necessarily endorsing them).

All I know is that doing squats, DLs, Military presses, etc have improved my ability to perform planks, but doing planks has never improved my ability to do squats, DLs, MPs.

I much prefer either incorporating core work into regular lifts as well as the anti-rotational exercises you list. Those are all mainstays of my routines with my clients.

Yeah, I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying at all, compound lifts definitely help build the Core. But take the DL for example, it also engages the upper back, traps, deltoids, and even the pecs to some degree but doing DL's doesn't stop us from benching, pressings, and rowing or doing pull-ups right? I remember when I was 22 and I DL'd for the first time; my pecs were sore the next day and it shocked the hell out of me.

Although I don't believe you need to spend a ton of time and energy on core training, a little is beneficial even if you're doing compound lifts. When I talk or think Core training, I honestly look at it more from an injury prevention standpoint than anything. Your body works as a unit and the core represents a huge component of that unit; if it is deficient then you are deficient in every type of movement be it lifting, running, walking, hell even sitting (posture). Not you you as in people in this thread, but people that have weak cores.

mustgetmuscles1

Pretty good article on increasing difficulty on the plank.
http://nicktumminello.com/2014/01/the-321-abdominal-plank-and-other-cool-stuff/

http://www.lookgreatnaked.com/articles/long_lever_posterior_tilt_plank.pdf

I do some weighted Russian twists. I do them mostly for the mobility workout. I get a lot of core activation in my lifting but not a lot of twisting motion.

dbmata

Something I've been adding is getups with a 70# pack, and weighted decline crunches or situps. 45# plate, as explosive as possible. This winter I might set up a static rope in my garage, hook into it with my climbing harness and wearing a heavy pack, and then do inverted sit ups from there without leg support.

That will work your core.

Sam_I_Am77

I personally think that, after a certain point, doing planks does little more than improve the ability to do planks--even with the variations you describe (I know you were listing examples, not necessarily endorsing them).

All I know is that doing squats, DLs, Military presses, etc have improved my ability to perform planks, but doing planks has never improved my ability to do squats, DLs, MPs.

I much prefer either incorporating core work into regular lifts as well as the anti-rotational exercises you list. Those are all mainstays of my routines with my clients.

Yeah, I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying at all, compound lifts definitely help build the Core. But take the DL for example, it also engages the upper back, traps, deltoids, and even the pecs to some degree but doing DL's doesn't stop us from benching, pressings, and rowing or doing pull-ups right? I remember when I was 22 and I DL'd for the first time; my pecs were sore the next day and it shocked the hell out of me.

Although I don't believe you need to spend a ton of time and energy on core training, a little is beneficial even if you're doing compound lifts. When I talk or think Core training, I honestly look at it more from an injury prevention standpoint than anything. Your body works as a unit and the core represents a huge component of that unit; if it is deficient then you are deficient in every type of movement be it lifting, running, walking, hell even sitting (posture). Not you you as in people in this thread, but people that have weak cores.

Sam_I_Am77

dbmata wrote: »

Something I've been adding is getups with a 70# pack, and weighted decline crunches or situps. 45# plate, as explosive as possible. This winter I might set up a static rope in my garage, hook into it with my climbing harness and wearing a heavy pack, and then do inverted sit ups from there without leg support.

That will work your core.

Yeah, that would be some *kitten*. I have a pre-existing back injury so I try and minimize the quantity of flexion I do. I read a good paper from Dr. McGill who's considered an expert on the back. He made a statement that scared me pretty good, "the back has only so many flexions before injury occurs." I'm not completely anti-situp, but I am for my own training.

I would love to get a weighted vest. I've read that doing weighted pull-ups with a vest versus a belt & chain is a very different training stimulus. I've never tried with a pack so I couldn't say but it was in some research about tactical resistance training.

JeffseekingV

What about supermans that work the lower back for core work? Haven't see that mentioned yet

dbmata

Interesting thought about limited number of flexions.

There's a practical reason of course other than just beating myself up, I fell on a climb once and went inverted. (This was training though) 20' down, inverted, heavy (48# + 2 quarts water) pack on. I couldn't get upright. Imagine that happening, not in training, on a glacier, and the anchor you are hanging from is your climbing partners that are hopefully dug in with their axes.

mustgetmuscles1

Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »

dbmata wrote: »

Something I've been adding is getups with a 70# pack, and weighted decline crunches or situps. 45# plate, as explosive as possible. This winter I might set up a static rope in my garage, hook into it with my climbing harness and wearing a heavy pack, and then do inverted sit ups from there without leg support.

That will work your core.

Yeah, that would be some *kitten*. I have a pre-existing back injury so I try and minimize the quantity of flexion I do. I read a good paper from Dr. McGill who's considered an expert on the back. He made a statement that scared me pretty good, "the back has only so many flexions before injury occurs." I'm not completely anti-situp, but I am for my own training.

I would love to get a weighted vest. I've read that doing weighted pull-ups with a vest versus a belt & chain is a very different training stimulus. I've never tried with a pack so I couldn't say but it was in some research about tactical resistance training.

I had heard that also. I read this article by Bret Contreras and Brad Shoenfeld and found it interesting on how this might have originated.

http://www.t-nation.com/training/to-crunch-or-not-to-crunch

I dont do crunches often but I dont really fear Im running out of flexions.

Sam_I_Am77

JeffseekingV wrote: »

What about supermans that work the lower back for core work? Haven't see that mentioned yet

Yeah, Supermans aren't necessarily a true "Core" training exercise although I would say that I do feel some activation of my ab's during the hold but the bulk of the stabilization comes from your lower back and glutes. If you think about the muscles it does target, they are key to stabilizing your torso and a good way to get some added glute activation. Weak glutes are a common deficiency, especially in women (generalizing of course).

I dont do crunches often but I dont really fear Im running out of flexions.

Ha ha, yeah that's a good thing. I just feel that my back is better off without. Although I will do standing ab pulldowns with a band. I feel I can keep my back flat enough throughout.

Sam_I_Am77

dbmata wrote: »

Interesting thought about limited number of flexions.

There's a practical reason of course other than just beating myself up, I fell on a climb once and went inverted. (This was training though) 20' down, inverted, heavy (48# + 2 quarts water) pack on. I couldn't get upright. Imagine that happening, not in training, on a glacier, and the anchor you are hanging from is your climbing partners that are hopefully dug in with their axes.

Oh yeah, i would say you have some good reasoning behind your training there.