Weight difference between machine and free weights
ForecasterJason
Posts: 2,577 Member
I use an Impex weight machine. I believe each of the plates that are on the system are 10 pounds each, although there is an additional plate (not sure how much weight) on top of the other ones. I'm wondering if there is any way to know what (if any) difference there is between doing some exercises (such as the bench press) with this versus a barbell. For instance, if I were to bench press 40 pounds (4 plates, not including the additional one on top), is that about the equivalent to the 45 pound bar? Or would the pulley system involved with the machine equate to considerably more weight?
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The pulley system and fact that a machine stays in a fixed path means you can't compare the weights directly.0
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free weights are the best one.1
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I found a chart that shows the weight resistance for the various weight plate amounts. What I'm wondering is if there is any way to interrupt this, meaning, how does this correlate to what I'm actually lifting? Meaning, assuming I have the right chart for the machine I'm using, the amount of weight resistance I can lift now is 139 pounds for the bench press (they call it front press). However, it would seem to me as though that's not the actual weight I can lift, as I thought it should be much lower.0
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When I first went from machine to free weights, it was less than half I could manage. It was a balance thing, you move up the weights pretty quick once you get used to it though.0
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ForecasterJason wrote: »I found a chart that shows the weight resistance for the various weight plate amounts. What I'm wondering is if there is any way to interrupt this, meaning, how does this correlate to what I'm actually lifting? Meaning, assuming I have the right chart for the machine I'm using, the amount of weight resistance I can lift now is 139 pounds for the bench press (they call it front press). However, it would seem to me as though that's not the actual weight I can lift, as I thought it should be much lower.
You're not going to be able to make any direct comparison here without actually going in and doing some bench press. In my experience, you will be able to lift more with a machine and less....often significantly less with free weights.
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Doing a 100lb bench press on a machine vs 100lb bench press with a barbell and free weights don't compare. Most people who can bench press 100lbs on a machine MAY be able to do 80lbs with free weights. And it drops even more when doing it with dumbells.
Stabilizers and ROM make the difference here.
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Depending on how the pulley system is configured it is taking off a significant amount of the weight from what you're lifting so it enables you to lift MORE than you could with free weights.0
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The only way to find out is to test it. Different machines have different leverages. I'd estimate machines are around 20% easier on the lower weights but actually might be even easier on heavier weights when stabilizers would be taxed more otherwise...but honest I have no idea.0
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There is not a good way to compare. Biggest difference is the all the muscles you use to stabilize yourself on free weights. A machine lets your rest, and puts you into a position to target certain muscles. Free weights force you to stand up, and stabilize your whole body while other muscles bounce around. Its a whole different experience.0
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Ok, all that makes sense.
I think I might have figured out the answer to my question. I don't have easy access to a barbell, but I do have a pair of 20 lb dumbbells that I just used to see how many reps I could bench with that. At 40 lbs total, I got in 35 reps, and I could have probably done 2-3 more. After reading up on what the general ratio of dumbbell to barbell bench ratio, it seems like it's anywhere from 75-90%. That means if I used a barbell I would have used anywhere from 44-53 lbs for the same number of reps.
Supposedly, I can bench 139 pounds on the machine for 10 reps. The estimated one rep max of my dumbbell test is 87 lbs. Based on that, if I had heavier dumbbells I could have done 65 lbs total (or 32.5 each) for 10 reps. And based on a possible 85% dumbbell to bench ratio, that means I could have used 77lbs on the barbell for 10 reps, which is about 55% of what I can do on the machine.0 -
I"ve been lifting for over 10 years. The amount I can bench vs dumbbells vs a machine never really match up mathematically.
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It's actually not a balance thing. The reason you can lift more on a machine is because the machine is actually assisting you more than you think. So that 70 lbs you're doing on a lat pull down isn't actually 70 lbs. That's one of the many major criticism of machines. You're always better off doing free weights.0
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Now, all this isn't to say machines don't have their place. They are better than nothing, they can be great for someone with an injury, when you need to focus on a specific muscle, to add variety, to push yourself to a "max" if you don't have a spotter.0
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beautifulwarrior18 wrote: »It's actually not a balance thing. The reason you can lift more on a machine is because the machine is actually assisting you more than you think. So that 70 lbs you're doing on a lat pull down isn't actually 70 lbs. That's one of the many major criticism of machines. You're always better off doing free weights.
Balance, and stabilizing muscles are definitely a factor...1 -
peachyfuzzle wrote: »beautifulwarrior18 wrote: »It's actually not a balance thing. The reason you can lift more on a machine is because the machine is actually assisting you more than you think. So that 70 lbs you're doing on a lat pull down isn't actually 70 lbs. That's one of the many major criticism of machines. You're always better off doing free weights.
Balance, and stabilizing muscles are definitely a factor...
^Agreed. Although the concern about machines assisting the weight you pull is valid, the balance and stabilizing issues are definitely a "thing".0 -
PikaKnight wrote: »peachyfuzzle wrote: »beautifulwarrior18 wrote: »It's actually not a balance thing. The reason you can lift more on a machine is because the machine is actually assisting you more than you think. So that 70 lbs you're doing on a lat pull down isn't actually 70 lbs. That's one of the many major criticism of machines. You're always better off doing free weights.
Balance, and stabilizing muscles are definitely a factor...
^Agreed. Although the concern about machines assisting the weight you pull is valid, the balance and stabilizing issues are definitely a "thing".
Oh, the weight assistance is definitely part of it also.
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This. There isn't really a correlation. Way too many variables.alan_huynh2000 wrote: »I"ve been lifting for over 10 years. The amount I can bench vs dumbbells vs a machine never really match up mathematically.
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x2 for Free weights over Machines. Stabilizers are definitely the main difference in this, They even come into effect on Dumbells vs Barbells, Plate loaded machines vs Compounds etc... All improve\Balance out in time..0
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CarlKRobbo wrote: »x2 for Free weights over Machines. Stabilizers are definitely the main difference in this, They even come into effect on Dumbells vs Barbells, Plate loaded machines vs Compounds etc... All improve\Balance out in time..
I started out on a Smith machine for a few weeks before joining a gym that had real freeweights. I thought I was pretty badass squatting almost two plates on the Smith machine before trying to lift only 75% of that weight on a free bar, and having to bail out of it the second I went down because I nearly fell on my *kitten* from being so off balance.
I'm still having issues not wobbling my bench press all over the place.
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beautifulwarrior18 wrote: »So that 70 lbs you're doing on a lat pull down isn't actually 70 lbs. That's one of the many major criticism of machines. You're always better off doing free weights.
Here is the thing: That 70lbs you are lifting on the machine is 70lbs.
Just as when I pull an engine out of a car, it is going to weigh the same if I use a pully, a hoist, or me and a couple of friends lift it out with our bare hands. Now, the amount of energy I have to use to lift that weight is going to vary depending on the method, but the weight getting lifted stays the same.
This is why you find that some machines don't tell you the weight you're lifting, choosing instead to tell you how many plates you are using... but the average guy in the gym wants a number he can relate to so the majority give him lbs/kg, even though they don't really relate to what you can lift any other way.
Just think of the numbers on a weight machine as the difficulty setting, keep pushing up the difficulty, and as long as you are feeling it at the end of the workout, then you are doing good.
I guess another way to look at is Free Weights are one video game, while Machines is a different video game. Do you try and compare your Machines score with your Free Weights score?
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Just because lifting 100lbs on a machine isnt the same as lifting 100lbs using free weights doesnt make free weights better. Just find where you on free weights and machines and switch it up every now and then.1
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beautifulwarrior18 wrote: »So that 70 lbs you're doing on a lat pull down isn't actually 70 lbs. That's one of the many major criticism of machines. You're always better off doing free weights.
Here is the thing: That 70lbs you are lifting on the machine is 70lbs.
Just as when I pull an engine out of a car, it is going to weigh the same if I use a pully, a hoist, or me and a couple of friends lift it out with our bare hands. Now, the amount of energy I have to use to lift that weight is going to vary depending on the method, but the weight getting lifted stays the same.
This is why you find that some machines don't tell you the weight you're lifting, choosing instead to tell you how many plates you are using... but the average guy in the gym wants a number he can relate to so the majority give him lbs/kg, even though they don't really relate to what you can lift any other way.
Just think of the numbers on a weight machine as the difficulty setting, keep pushing up the difficulty, and as long as you are feeling it at the end of the workout, then you are doing good.
I guess another way to look at is Free Weights are one video game, while Machines is a different video game. Do you try and compare your Machines score with your Free Weights score?
This is not entirely true. The pulley system being used will cause the actual weight of the lift to be different from the effective weight of the lift. Sure, if you're using just a single pulley, then the force applied to the weight must be the same as the weight itself, but once you start using double pulleys, or a more complicated pulley system, that effective weight will lessen.
The reason you're able to lift an engine out of a car is because while the pulley system used does not change how much the engine weighs, it changes the amount of force being transferred to you along the rope meaning that you have to use less force to pull the weight therefore effectively changing what you feel as the weight on the other side.
Hence, if you're using a machine which has a pulley system on it, you're going to be getting some sort of assistance. This also does not take into account the added effect of not using stabilizing muscles used for balance.0 -
*double post
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peachyfuzzle wrote: »beautifulwarrior18 wrote: »So that 70 lbs you're doing on a lat pull down isn't actually 70 lbs. That's one of the many major criticism of machines. You're always better off doing free weights.
Here is the thing: That 70lbs you are lifting on the machine is 70lbs.
Just as when I pull an engine out of a car, it is going to weigh the same if I use a pully, a hoist, or me and a couple of friends lift it out with our bare hands. Now, the amount of energy I have to use to lift that weight is going to vary depending on the method, but the weight getting lifted stays the same.
This is why you find that some machines don't tell you the weight you're lifting, choosing instead to tell you how many plates you are using... but the average guy in the gym wants a number he can relate to so the majority give him lbs/kg, even though they don't really relate to what you can lift any other way.
Just think of the numbers on a weight machine as the difficulty setting, keep pushing up the difficulty, and as long as you are feeling it at the end of the workout, then you are doing good.
I guess another way to look at is Free Weights are one video game, while Machines is a different video game. Do you try and compare your Machines score with your Free Weights score?
This is not entirely true. The pulley system being used will cause the actual weight of the lift to be different from the effective weight of the lift. Sure, if you're using just a single pulley, then the force applied to the weight must be the same as the weight itself, but once you start using double pulleys, or a more complicated pulley system, that effective weight will lessen.
The reason you're able to lift an engine out of a car is because while the pulley system used does not change how much the engine weighs, it changes the amount of force being transferred to you along the rope meaning that you have to use less force to pull the weight therefore effectively changing what you feel as the weight on the other side.
Hence, if you're using a machine which has a pulley system on it, you're going to be getting some sort of assistance. This also does not take into account the added effect of not using stabilizing muscles used for balance.
Dat weight vs. mass science malarkey.
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ForecasterJason wrote: »At 40 lbs total, I got in 35 reps
The estimated one rep max of my dumbbell test is 87 lbs.
You can't estimate a one rep max from that. What you did with 40 lbs was closer to cardio than weight lifting. You should find a weight that you can do max 10 reps with if you want to calculate a 1RM with any meaningful accuracy.1 -
Yeah, I do realize that the more reps I do, the lower the accuracy of the one rep max is. But unfortunately, I have nothing else to use. Based on the amount of time I have been lifting with the machine (and the fact that I know I started off from a fairly weak state), I would say the numbers I estimated seem like they could be close.ForecasterJason wrote: »At 40 lbs total, I got in 35 reps
The estimated one rep max of my dumbbell test is 87 lbs.
You can't estimate a one rep max from that. What you did with 40 lbs was closer to cardio than weight lifting. You should find a weight that you can do max 10 reps with if you want to calculate a 1RM with any meaningful accuracy.
Since it seems like in reality I can probably bench more than I thought, now it makes sense why my progress has slowed down considerably.
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Good news is that you're working out!!!!
One could debate the differences between riding a real bike outside, and riding an exercise bike, or spin bike, or a bike on a trainer, etc...? Again - the good news is that one is riding and getting exercise. Ditto on running outside on pavement, a track, on a grassy cross country course, on a dirt trail, on gravel vs. running inside on a treadmill. It's not all the same, but it is exercise.
Doing weights, resistance, with body weights, machine weights, free weights, lifting stuff in the junkyard, chopping firewood and lifting heavy logs, trees, and wood - hey, it's all good.2 -
So just in case there are others that have wondered a similar thing, I have now done actual bench pressing with a barbell. I can say it is indeed true that it's hard to make a comparison. When I started bench pressing with free weights, the amount I could lift was fairly close to what I could do on the weight machine I was using, as in not more than 10% less. Now, after doing barbell bench pressing for about 3½ months, I can actually lift more weight this way than I can on the weight machine, but I also haven't done any regular training on the weight machine in a long while.
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In my experience, there is no correlation between free weights and machines and also between different machines. Just track what you can do on that exercise and assume that there is no carry over to other exercises.
E.g. - Chest pressing 90kg does not mean you can bench press anywhere near 90kg.2 -
I can easily leg press sets of 12 x 120kg
I ain't squatting that weight any time soon2
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