Back of the napkin programming
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yankeedownsouth wrote: »Wronkletoad wrote: »yankeedownsouth wrote: »Bump! With all the questions about programming on this board, I thought this would have generated a lot of discussion...
yes. after all strong lifts, 5/3/1 templates, SS are not proven or anything like that...
Maybe I'm mis-reading this as sarcasm, but just because some programs are popular and proven, doesn't mean other programs can't work just as well or better. Some people actually aren't interested in doing SS, strong lifts, or the like...
That's who jillian michaels and p90x videos are for.
I hate SS and Strong lifts. They don't fit my goals and the one time I did a 5x5 program for a powerlifting meet I thought it was boring. Do I look like the kind of person who does a DVD workout? There are a variety of programs out there for a varitey of goals, fitness levels and workout preferences. Thinking that Strong lifts or SS are the ultimate program for everyone makes you look ignorant. Steve did a great job of explaining how he set someone's programming up and for those with some experience lifting it provides many things for them to think about when selecting or writing their own program.0 -
or the like. As in, other lifting programming.
Grrr, tiger.0 -
I'll contribute as I see fit, in a timing and pattern that suits my personal time, and proclivities.
I'll further clarify, what I was responding to, as it seems I need to.Some people actually aren't interested in doing SS, strong lifts, or the like...
Now we bring in my previous post.
"As in, other lifting programming." Meaning "or the like" would refer to other types of programming for lifting. So if some people are not interested in lifting programming what does that leave?or the like. As in, other lifting programming.
Fitness and calisthenics dvds. If some of these people are not interested in programming, it seems a "great constructive conversation on programming" will be lost on them. Now that all this is clear, if you would like to see this turn into a great constructive conversation, do so. You won't achieve that by focusing on telling me how and what to do. I'd also suggest not taking this as a personal affront, because that wouldn't be a reasonable action, but your choice. Nothing was said about you or any other people who have reasonable, tangible, and articulated goals.0 -
Well I read Steve's post and thought thank God because I'm a relative newbie in the sense I go to an excellent PT whom I thought I'd never leave but fact is I need to graduate. While I certainly can credit her with my transformation and can say honestly that her flexibility of mind is similar to Strouty here, I still don't know what she is doing with me lol. Yes I've progressed, yes I know she's followed my weight loss by changing from cardio based resistance to this year, a focus on heavier lifting but as to the specifics? Well I didn't know where to start self programming until I read Steve's post. Now I have a better idea and feel I can plan for home based workouts which I can include a couple of interested kids in on as well. Thanks Steve.0
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One could suggest what is proven to work, or one could suggest something less effective or proven, and really... why do that?
Compliance. If we suggest a program that someone doesn't follow because they don't have the right equipment, or they find the program boring or whatever, then it's not an effective program for them. They're better off doing a program that they'll actually do, even if it takes them a little longer to reach their goal.
Nice thing about the OP's template is he doesn't dictate which specific exercises to do - that's up to the user. That offers an advantage over typical barbell-based programs. Besides, it's not like only barbell exercises can retain muscle mass during fat loss. There are dozens of other ways to do that. Offering the public varied options increases the chances of them succeeding.
-Thanks for this! Flagging it so I can re-read when I have more time.
Uh, no, don't flag it.
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I'll contribute as I see fit, in a timing and pattern that suits my personal time, and proclivities.
I'll further clarify, what I was responding to, as it seems I need to.Some people actually aren't interested in doing SS, strong lifts, or the like...
Now we bring in my previous post.
"As in, other lifting programming." Meaning "or the like" would refer to other types of programming for lifting. So if some people are not interested in lifting programming what does that leave?or the like. As in, other lifting programming.
You mis-interpreted what I meant when I said "or the like." I meant programs similar to SS, strong lifts, and other pre-packaged, off-the-shelf programs, as opposed to customized programs designed for people's individual, specific goals. I did NOT mean "or the like" to encompass all other lifting programming. That's probably what got this whole thing off-track, and I'm happy to see that there's been some constructive discussion about the topic now.
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stroutman81 wrote: »So this is MFP nowadays, huh? Good to know.
This wasn't meant to be some sort of be all end all program meant to compete with the tried and true basic setups that are out there. It was literally an email to a family member of mine. I figured I'd share it to provide some insight into some of the thought processes that went behind her programming. That's all. Maybe spark some conversation about programming for different folks or whatever.
It's hard for a newcomer to go wrong with something like SS or SL or whatever. I agree. That doesn't mean it's hard for them to do better, too, though... depending on the context of the individual in question. I think that's an important distinction many folks seem to gloss right over.
And no, I'm not suggesting that my program above is better. If you're going down that path, you're too deep in zealotry to have any sort of meaningful discussion here.
Sorry, I was part of the problem. I get annoyed when folks post something clearly meaning to be a helpful contribution to the discussion and the school yard bullies (yes, I used that word) show up and kick sand just because they have nothing better to do. But again, apologies for threadjacking your thread.0 -
doesn't dictate which specific exercises to do - that's up to the user. That offers an advantage over typical barbell-based programs. Besides, it's not like only barbell exercises can retain muscle mass during fat loss. There are dozens of other ways to do that.
why is the first point an advantage for the otherwise healthy person?
what other ways of retaining muscle mass during fat loss? maybe for a newbie with newbie gains, but what?
and lol at the idea of program zealotry. often times "I'm looking for an alternative when there are plenty of easy to follow programs out there" = "I don't wanna do it".
that's fine. but work from that angle. not from the seedless jalapeno angle or the "mild hot sauce" angle for those who want to look like they're eating hot sauce, dig?0 -
I'll contribute as I see fit, in a timing and pattern that suits my personal time, and proclivities.
I'll further clarify, what I was responding to, as it seems I need to.Some people actually aren't interested in doing SS, strong lifts, or the like...
Now we bring in my previous post.
"As in, other lifting programming." Meaning "or the like" would refer to other types of programming for lifting. So if some people are not interested in lifting programming what does that leave?or the like. As in, other lifting programming.
Fitness and calisthenics dvds. If some of these people are not interested in programming, it seems a "great constructive conversation on programming" will be lost on them. Now that all this is clear, if you would like to see this turn into a great constructive conversation, do so. You won't achieve that by focusing on telling me how and what to do. I'd also suggest not taking this as a personal affront, because that wouldn't be a reasonable action, but your choice. Nothing was said about you or any other people who have reasonable, tangible, and articulated goals.
I think you misinterpreted "or the like". I believe she was more specifically referring to a strength based routine, rather than something more focused on hypertrophy. As a bodybuilder, she would benefit with more of a focus on hypertrophy hence the no interest in something such as SS, Stronglifts, etc. Sure, hypertrophy will occur on those programs as they are interrelated; but not as much as a more heavily weighted hypertrophy specific program.0 -
Thanks for taking the time to outline a template with options that people can pick and choose from and providing information to show the reasons why they are performing those exercises. I think if people understand the reasons why the are doing something they are more likely to execute it properly or have the confidence to modify the programme if needs be according to their preferences.
Some people like having a fixed, off the shelf programme where they are told what to do. Others like me, like having the flexibility to choose appropriately for myself from different options.
Options and choice are not bad things.0 -
Many of us still appreciate your contributions to this site. You were one of the first people I followed around the boards and blogs. Thank you for taking the time to share.
I appreciate you saying that. Thanks.I prefer a traditional bodybuilding split (similar to Layne Norton's original PHAT). I've done 5x5 and 5/3/1 for powerlifting meets, but I found them boring. I have added some different set and rep schemes to the bodybuilding split with some great results. [/quote}
Yeah, PHAT is a nice little setup. I've run a few iterations of it myself. And for my given set of goals, a setup that's more diverse than 5x5 and the likes is ideal. But that's just it... the efficacy of any programming is context dependent.0 -
Wronkletoad wrote: »doesn't dictate which specific exercises to do - that's up to the user. That offers an advantage over typical barbell-based programs. Besides, it's not like only barbell exercises can retain muscle mass during fat loss. There are dozens of other ways to do that.
why is the first point an advantage for the otherwise healthy person?
what other ways of retaining muscle mass during fat loss? maybe for a newbie with newbie gains, but what?
and lol at the idea of program zealotry. often times "I'm looking for an alternative when there are plenty of easy to follow programs out there" = "I don't wanna do it".
that's fine. but work from that angle. not from the seedless jalapeno angle or the "mild hot sauce" angle for those who want to look like they're eating hot sauce, dig?
A benefit as in flexibility for those who otherwise do not want to follow a particular program. Exercise selection flexibility, progression, etc.
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fair enough but then we're chasing our tails with "program /progression" etc. and just put it into blocks. point is, there are tons of programs out there and why reinvent the wheel? the basics are known - often alternatives want to get around the basics. there are many ways of doing LISS, but the basic format of LISS is LISS. dig? strength is strength.0
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LolBroScience wrote: »I'll contribute as I see fit, in a timing and pattern that suits my personal time, and proclivities.
I'll further clarify, what I was responding to, as it seems I need to.Some people actually aren't interested in doing SS, strong lifts, or the like...
Now we bring in my previous post.
"As in, other lifting programming." Meaning "or the like" would refer to other types of programming for lifting. So if some people are not interested in lifting programming what does that leave?or the like. As in, other lifting programming.
Fitness and calisthenics dvds. If some of these people are not interested in programming, it seems a "great constructive conversation on programming" will be lost on them. Now that all this is clear, if you would like to see this turn into a great constructive conversation, do so. You won't achieve that by focusing on telling me how and what to do. I'd also suggest not taking this as a personal affront, because that wouldn't be a reasonable action, but your choice. Nothing was said about you or any other people who have reasonable, tangible, and articulated goals.
I think you misinterpreted "or the like". I believe she was more specifically referring to a strength based routine, rather than something more focused on hypertrophy. As a bodybuilder, she would benefit with more of a focus on hypertrophy hence the no interest in something such as SS, Stronglifts, etc. Sure, hypertrophy will occur on those programs as they are interrelated; but not as much as a more heavily weighted hypertrophy specific program.
Seems to be, I interpreted "or the like" to mean any strength training programming. But whatever, that can go on and on ad nauseum like a certain politician saying, "It depends on what the definition of is, is."
I didn't realize the person I responded to originally, Yankeedownsouth was a bb. I'm not one to decry custom programming, since I've been on that myself since june.0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »I'll contribute as I see fit, in a timing and pattern that suits my personal time, and proclivities.
I'll further clarify, what I was responding to, as it seems I need to.Some people actually aren't interested in doing SS, strong lifts, or the like...
Now we bring in my previous post.
"As in, other lifting programming." Meaning "or the like" would refer to other types of programming for lifting. So if some people are not interested in lifting programming what does that leave?or the like. As in, other lifting programming.
Fitness and calisthenics dvds. If some of these people are not interested in programming, it seems a "great constructive conversation on programming" will be lost on them. Now that all this is clear, if you would like to see this turn into a great constructive conversation, do so. You won't achieve that by focusing on telling me how and what to do. I'd also suggest not taking this as a personal affront, because that wouldn't be a reasonable action, but your choice. Nothing was said about you or any other people who have reasonable, tangible, and articulated goals.
I think you misinterpreted "or the like". I believe she was more specifically referring to a strength based routine, rather than something more focused on hypertrophy. As a bodybuilder, she would benefit with more of a focus on hypertrophy hence the no interest in something such as SS, Stronglifts, etc. Sure, hypertrophy will occur on those programs as they are interrelated; but not as much as a more heavily weighted hypertrophy specific program.
Seems to be, I interpreted "or the like" to mean any strength training programming. But whatever, that can go on and on ad nauseum like a certain politician saying, "It depends on what the definition of is, is."
I didn't realize the person I responded to originally, Yankeedownsouth was a bb. I'm not one to decry custom programming, since I've been on that myself since june.
I am not; I'm just getting old and don't want to look it.
I think LolBroScience was thinking it was usmcmp who started that quote. No big deal though...
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Yeah, no, she stepped into where I was responding to you. Whatever, that whole thing was funny.0
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yankeedownsouth wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »I'll contribute as I see fit, in a timing and pattern that suits my personal time, and proclivities.
I'll further clarify, what I was responding to, as it seems I need to.Some people actually aren't interested in doing SS, strong lifts, or the like...
Now we bring in my previous post.
"As in, other lifting programming." Meaning "or the like" would refer to other types of programming for lifting. So if some people are not interested in lifting programming what does that leave?or the like. As in, other lifting programming.
Fitness and calisthenics dvds. If some of these people are not interested in programming, it seems a "great constructive conversation on programming" will be lost on them. Now that all this is clear, if you would like to see this turn into a great constructive conversation, do so. You won't achieve that by focusing on telling me how and what to do. I'd also suggest not taking this as a personal affront, because that wouldn't be a reasonable action, but your choice. Nothing was said about you or any other people who have reasonable, tangible, and articulated goals.
I think you misinterpreted "or the like". I believe she was more specifically referring to a strength based routine, rather than something more focused on hypertrophy. As a bodybuilder, she would benefit with more of a focus on hypertrophy hence the no interest in something such as SS, Stronglifts, etc. Sure, hypertrophy will occur on those programs as they are interrelated; but not as much as a more heavily weighted hypertrophy specific program.
Seems to be, I interpreted "or the like" to mean any strength training programming. But whatever, that can go on and on ad nauseum like a certain politician saying, "It depends on what the definition of is, is."
I didn't realize the person I responded to originally, Yankeedownsouth was a bb. I'm not one to decry custom programming, since I've been on that myself since june.
I am not; I'm just getting old and don't want to look it. I think LolBroScience was thinking it was usmcmp who started that quote. No big deal though...
I did0 -
^^ LolBro: thinking of what you're mentioning (varieties of programming), T-nation is a perfect example of offering programs like what I think you're saying - is this right?
(e.g., http://www.t-nation.com/training/12-habits-of-big-lifters; http://www.t-nation.com/training/from-beginner-to-badass-5-strategies; http://www.t-nation.com/training/strengthen-your-strict-pull-up; http://www.t-nation.com/training/20-ways-to-train-smarter)
where there are options, discussions, etc about routines / programs for a variety of goals or periods
cheers,
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I'm just saying there is no ultimate program. The best program is one that you stick to which has a progressive scheme to it.
Yes, there are tried and true programs out there that have mass popularity. However, it doesn't mean that other programs cannot or do not work.
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oh agreed! and sticking to it is the key!
thanks again!0 -
Like with all medicines, adherence is where the challenge lies.
Say you're running something like GVT, you feel off, you know the work out is going to suck hard. What do you do? It's so easy to say screw it and head to the pub.0 -
just be careful with Devlin MacGregor's PROVASIC. see what it did to my liver?0
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Wronkletoad wrote: »what other ways of retaining muscle mass during fat loss? maybe for a newbie with newbie gains, but what?
Other ways besides a barbell - dumbbells, cable machines, kettlebells, sandbags, flipping tractor tires, pushing a prowler, boxing, rockclimbing.. The list is literally endless.0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »I'm just saying there is no ultimate program. The best program is one that you stick to which has a progressive scheme to it.
Yes, there are tried and true programs out there that have mass popularity. However, it doesn't mean that other programs cannot or do not work.
so we finally have a take away point?0 -
Takeaway points:
1. Custom programming is ok.
2. No program is foolproof.
3. No program is perfect.
4. No program will work without adherence.
5. Thou must progressively overloadeth.0 -
6. unless you stall- then you may need a deload.
7.specific diet tendencies matter for you to achieve your specific goals
I know - we weren't really talking about that- but well- seemed relevant.0 -
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I prefer C# for programming. Napkins are too slow with double floats.0
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Wronkletoad wrote: »just be careful with Devlin MacGregor's PROVASIC. see what it did to my liver?
Nice movie reference.
What was the *kitten* storm that turned into this thread about? LOL0
This discussion has been closed.
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