Muscle Glycogen Stores and Weight Loss

longtimeterp

Okay, so in my various readings i have come across the information that fasted endurance training can increase the muscle's ability to store glycogen, especially when in a low carb setting. I was doing once/twice weekly 3hr fasted cycling for over a month and carb cycling. Took a week off ate a lot drank a lot, put on 20lbs lol. So starting thursday i went back fairly low carb and ate reasonably. Lost 18 of those 20lbs.

ive heard the avg body can store a few hundred gs of carbs in muscle. along with this i think its a 4:1 water/carb ration in the body. I'm curious as to whether or not some of you think with such a dramatic change in weight based on carb intake, i have managed to increase my muscle's ability to store said glycogen. Sorry if this is a little on the physiology side of exercise benefits.

ninerbuff

Low carbing depletes muscle glycogen in anyone as well as restoring when carbs are reintroduced. Personally have seen it and done it when I used to compete in bodybuilding contests.

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SueInAz

Interesting, I hadn't heard about increasing glycogen storage capability before. However, I do know that our bodies can store a tremendous amount of water regardless of glycogen levels. I was on a prescription diuretic for about a year and ended up in the hospital for an emergency appendectomy. I didn't take my prescription for the 3 days I was in the hospital and when I got home I'd gained 18 pounds. I'd eaten, maybe, 1500 calories the whole time I was in there between the fasting for the surgery and soft diet after. It took 3 days to shed that 18 pounds of water plus another 5 once I got home and resumed the medication.

Lofteren

This isn't anything ground breaking. It's just an overcompensation response when carbs are reintroduced after being in a state of depletion. Bodybuilders have been using this technique to look bigger and fuller on stage for 3 decades. They just eat a low carb diet and do full body training sessions for 3 or 4 days in a row. Then they eat a huge quantity of carbohydrates and the next day they are 15 lbs bigger. The increased glycogen storage will be short lived though. It will last a few days and then you will go back to your basal levels.

ninerbuff

Lofteren wrote: »

This isn't anything ground breaking. It's just an overcompensation response when carbs are reintroduced after being in a state of depletion. Bodybuilders have been using this technique to look bigger and fuller on stage for 3 decades. They just eat a low carb diet and do full body training sessions for 3 or 4 days in a row. Then they eat a huge quantity of carbohydrates and the next day they are 15 lbs bigger. The increased glycogen storage will be short lived though. It will last a few days and then you will go back to your basal levels.

Yep, I used to low/reduce carbs for 4 days, then 2 days before comp carb load. The difference is pretty amazing at how definition is more pronounced. Of course getting peak is a trial and error thing, but this seemed to work best for me.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

longtimeterp

Ha! so low carb all week, and eat a bunch of carbs before date night to look extra handsomes!

jacksonpt

I'm far from an expert, but I have a hard time believing 20lbs in a week is simply fluctuations in water weight. A lot of it certainly could be, but I'd wonder about other factors - differences in clothing, differences in weigh in times, difference scales, scale on different/uneven surfaces, etc.

longtimeterp

jacksonpt wrote: »

I'm far from an expert, but I have a hard time believing 20lbs in a week is simply fluctuations in water weight. A lot of it certainly could be, but I'd wonder about other factors - differences in clothing, differences in weigh in times, difference scales, scale on different/uneven surfaces, etc.

Just wearing my draws and my watch, between 9-11am each day, after 1 cup of coffee and the requisite action the coffee brings about, and the same scale in the same place

jacksonpt

faulty scale?

longtimeterp

jacksonpt wrote: »

faulty scale?

its the same withings i've been using for 3 years (well, a second one, the first was replaced under warranty 2 years ago because the wifi stopped working...) and i've occasionally done the holding/not a bag of dog food/flour to check it's accuracy over the years

...i've had 10lb fluctuations over a couple days before in the past, but never 20...

jacksonpt

Agreed.

I'm not saying it can't happen, it just seems unlikely to me, so I'd consider other factors. I've been plenty dehydrated before, but never seen swings like that before.

Cherimoose

longtimeterp wrote: »

Sorry if this is a little on the physiology side of exercise benefits.

I've always felt there should be 2 sub-forums here - one for geek discussions, and one for everything else (daily "challenges", which Fitbit is best, how many calories are burned dusting furniture, etc).

longtimeterp wrote: »

I'm curious as to whether or not some of you think with such a dramatic change in weight based on carb intake, i have managed to increase my muscle's ability to store said glycogen

I don't think training in a fasted or low-carb state makes a dramatic difference in glycogen stores. Your weight gain was probably mostly from the difference in carbs, sodium, and calorie balance, and the fact that you bike (increases glycogen stores).

SueInAz

jacksonpt wrote: »

Agreed.

I'm not saying it can't happen, it just seems unlikely to me, so I'd consider other factors. I've been plenty dehydrated before, but never seen swings like that before.

I'll point you back up to my own post. I've personally experienced water gains that large. It can, and does, happen. I'm 5'3" and weigh around 130 +- 5 pounds depending on the day. 18 pounds is a large percentage gain for me and 5 pound daily swings are statistically significant.

SonicDeathMonkey80

This just sounds insane. Not saying I don't believe, but it's just a lot. I'm always in a carb-loaded state, and lose a max of 5lbs when I'm completely depleted.

Lofteren

I've gained 26lbs in a day. I did a water cut, weighed in on Friday morning, ate a Chinese bugger, chugged a gallon of water, ate at the Chinese buffet again and went to bed. I woke up 26lbs heavier on the day of the meet. The amount of glycogen and water weight one is able to hold is directly proportional to the amount of lean body mass they have though. OP doesn't appear to be a bodybuilder, powerlifter or strongman.

Hornsby

longtimeterp wrote: »

Ha! so low carb all week, and eat a bunch of carbs before date night to look extra handsomes!

Don't forget the Cialis as well...

dbmata

Hornsby wrote: »

longtimeterp wrote: »

Ha! so low carb all week, and eat a bunch of carbs before date night to look extra handsomes!

Don't forget the Cialis as well...

Rec use only. Half tab to funville.

heybales

Ya, while some of that was obviously water with carbs in muscle, that can't account for all of it.

You can store about 1500-2000 cal (375-500 g) worth of carbs in muscle (350-650 cal in liver), and each 500 cal block is about 1 lb (2.7 g water per g carb).
And you can't totally deplete them just going low carb, excess protein is converted to carbs and still stored there then.

So if you somehow got total depletion in all muscles, looking at 3-4 lbs. That would be interesting to obtain.

I've lost 10 lbs after a 4 hr bike ride, and that was even with drinking like 4 lbs worth of water during the ride, so there is more water weight involved then just carb attached water.

heybales

Also curious where info was that fasted endurance cardio can cause increased glycogen stores beyond what the body would attempt to use if you didn't do it fasted?

I know the whole "carb-loading" thing is a very specific protocol done the week prior to needing it, and is not just a big pasta meal the night before.

But that available excess stored is short lived, and purely the response from going depleted, so it's not like you'd get it all the time. And even that response isn't that great for that much extra weight. 1.8 x normal storage at best.

Here is interesting article for marathons that discusses the loading parameters and response. Of course, study author's end game was what pace for marathon to make what you got, or could potentially load, get you to the finish. But he references other studies on the general stuff that has other good info.

http://www.ploscompbiol.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pcbi.1000960

"All of these techniques are variations on a three-phase theme: Prolonged or high-intensity exercise of the muscles to be loaded, typically followed first by a period of dietary carbohydrate restriction, and then ultimately by a period of high carbohydrate intake. Such schedules are designed to induce a ‘glycogen supercompensation’ effect, whereby glycogen depletion and carbohydrate restriction stimulate increased expression of glycogen synthase in the depleted muscle fibers, enhancing their ability to synthesize glycogen during the final, high-carbohydrate-diet phase, permitting muscle fibers to store glycogen in supranormal concentrations. Exercise-induced suppression of insulin and muscle-contraction-induced activity of muscle glucose transporters also facilitate glycogen loading specifically in the target muscles, in preference to fuel storage in other physiologic energy stores such as adipose tissue and nonworking muscles. Biopsy studies of leg muscles loaded in this way indicate that while the muscles of trained athletes typically store glycogen at a density, , of approximately 110 mmol glycosyl residues per kilogram (), glycogen loading protocols can increase that density to a maximum of approximately 200 mmol glycosyl residues per kilogram () [23]. While the maximum size of the glycogen reservoir available to an endurance runner depends on the size of the relevant muscles, it is possible to estimate the amount of accessible glycogen: A lean, male runner, for example, may be 45% skeletal muscle by mass, with half of that mass in his leg muscles; at 70 kg such an athlete would typically store 310 g of carbohydrate as muscle glycogen, and could store at most approximately 570 g, corresponding to approximately 1250 and 2270 kcal of leg muscle glycogen, respectively."

longtimeterp

heybales wrote: »

Also curious where info was that fasted endurance cardio can cause increased glycogen stores beyond what the body would attempt to use if you didn't do it fasted?

Found one...

http://jap.physiology.org/content/110/1/236

EXOGENOUS SUBSTRATE SUPPLY plays an important role in modulating the acute metabolic responses to endurance exercise. For instance, carbohydrate intake before and during exercise (6, 13, 14, 17, 21, 35, 39), or alternatively carbohydrate infusion (22, 36), stimulates the contribution of blood glucose to the metabolic substrate pool fueling muscle contractions and inhibits fat oxidation. On the other hand, ingestion of high-fat nutrients (8, 31), or fatty acid infusion (20, 45, 46), stimulates energy production by fat oxidation, while suppressing carbohydrate utilization. Studies in our (17) and other laboratories (10, 11) have also shown that glucose ingestion during exercise significantly blunts the exercise-induced changes in mRNA content of pivotal players in fat metabolism, like fatty acid translocase/CD36 and carnitine palmitoyltransferase 1 (10). It has also been shown that endurance training in conjunction with a fat-rich diet stimulates metabolic adaptations in muscle cells to facilitate energy production by fat oxidation (9, 23, 29). Furthermore, consistent training with low initial glycogen level due to dietary carbohydrate restriction between training sessions resulted in beneficial effects on basal muscle glycogen content (24, 44, 55), mitochondrial oxidative capacity (24, 37, 43, 55) as well as fat oxidation rate during moderate-intensity exercise (37, 55).

feralX

heybales wrote: »

Ya, while some of that was obviously water with carbs in muscle, that can't account for all of it.

You can store about 1500-2000 cal (375-500 g) worth of carbs in muscle (350-650 cal in liver), and each 500 cal block is about 1 lb (2.7 g water per g carb).
And you can't totally deplete them just going low carb, excess protein is converted to carbs and still stored there then.

So if you somehow got total depletion in all muscles, looking at 3-4 lbs. That would be interesting to obtain.

I've lost 10 lbs after a 4 hr bike ride, and that was even with drinking like 4 lbs worth of water during the ride, so there is more water weight involved then just carb attached water.

After coming off a very low carb diet in a fully depleted state I will usually increase my body weight by 12-15 lbs in a two week period of slowly reintroducing carbs. That's just glycogen and water going back into the muscle.
The OP didn't gradually increase carbs, he flooded his body with them in a short period of time. This would induce a large amount of subcutaneous water retention and weight gain. You see examples of this when a body builder screws up his final prep and "spills over", holding subQ water and losing definition.

corgicake

Basically, you accidentally carb loaded. Save your notes on how this happened so you can make it happen again if you have some ridiculous 50+ mile trip in the works.