5/3/1 folks... goals and assistance work
jacksonpt
Posts: 10,413 Member
I'm struggling to get my head around my goals, or more accurately, prioritizing my goals (I want aaaaaall the goalz)... which is making it hard to setup my assistance work.
So I'm curious... what are your goals, and what do you do for assistance work? Maybe some conversation will get me looking at things a little differently. If nothing else, this isn't another activity tracker thread.
So I'm curious... what are your goals, and what do you do for assistance work? Maybe some conversation will get me looking at things a little differently. If nothing else, this isn't another activity tracker thread.
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Great question, interested in seeing some input.
As for me, I find my assistance goes around some weak areas; some areas I find missed in the program (Rows and pull-ups); and exercises I enjoy.0 -
Also lets look at it this way. When your goal is to cut does assistance work have to be done. You won't build size and the muscle tear and repair from the three big lifts. That is the whole reason why so many say it is better to lift on a deficit. I do assistant work because I want to be able to do weighted pull ups some day.0
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For me my goals are to be strong and be able to perform if I step-out onto a soccer field (athletic), softball field, etc. I'm 37 so being able to hang with younger folks is important to me when being competitive.
With that being said, my training is kept incredibly simple, here is the basis of what I do.
- Day 1
Jumps & Med Ball throws x 3sets of 3
Squat (heavy day)
Press (heavy day)
Accessory: Chin-ups, Dips, Back Raises
Core work of some kind
- Day 2
Jumps & Med Ball throws x 3sets of 3
Front Squat (variation - moderate weight / low volume)
Bench Press (heavy day)
Accessory: DB Rows (3 x 10 *last set is AMRAP - shoot for 20), Back Raises (50)
Core
- Day 3
Jumps & Med Ball throws x 3sets of 3
Squat (volume day)
Press (volume day)
Accessory: Chin-ups, Dips, Back Raises
Core
Every session starts and ends with mobility work. For conditioning I do some kind of intervals on an elliptical, battle ropes, or I hit a heavy bag for 3 5-min rounds. On some macro-cycles I will switch emphasis between Press and Bench Press but due to a pectoral tear I tend to not put much more focus on the Bench because too much volume irritates the hell out of it.
Back when I started 5/3/1 I started with an 85% Training Max and forced myself to follow Jim's 5/3 Periodization article that he wrote earlier in the year. I've had great success in this past year. As you can see, my training is incredibly simple yet not lacking in results. All too-often I see people wanting to add so much damn accessory work and it's not needed. Lately I see people wanting to add Boring But Big + First Set Last (Beyond 5/3/1 book) and it's that's even more ridiculous.
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I have a long term goal of wanting to be stronger- I waffle because I would REALLY REALLY love to be more cut. Just- starting to break into the realm of an off season fitness/physique competitor.
Downside- my dancing comes first- so I can only be but SO cut- no one wants to watch an overly cut up belly dancer- it's just not that attractive. So for me balancing that goal is thing- which is why I tend significantly more toward the strength side verses appearance.
Right now I'm running Sheiko beginner 2- I like it because it DOES have more variety than any of the Sheiko programs specifically- which makes me happy and I feel makes me more well rounded- I also like the fact it's challenging my squats- supposed to be box squats- which I dislike- so I'm doing pause squats- so weight is lower- but still really working- and I like that.
I feel you- I have so many ideas- so many wishes- and goals- I want to do ALL the things- but it's just not realistic. so I nibble at the things I can and try to maintain 2 main goals in the fore front of my progress. (Hence my desire to cut weight- but I"m not making myself crazy over it)0 -
yopeeps025 wrote: »Also lets look at it this way. When your goal is to cut does assistance work have to be done. You won't build size and the muscle tear and repair from the three big lifts. That is the whole reason why so many say it is better to lift on a deficit. I do assistant work because I want to be able to do weighted pull ups some day.
That's a good point.
When I'm cutting, I always keep my reps low as there's no real benefit to doing volume work on a significant cut.
But strength can very much be increased, so accessory work can still be very effective in supporting the big lifts. At least that's my line of thinking.0 -
yopeeps025 wrote: »Also lets look at it this way. When your goal is to cut does assistance work have to be done. You won't build size and the muscle tear and repair from the three big lifts. That is the whole reason why so many say it is better to lift on a deficit. I do assistant work because I want to be able to do weighted pull ups some day.
That's a good point.
When I'm cutting, I always keep my reps low as there's no real benefit to doing volume work on a significant cut.
But strength can very much be increased, so accessory work can still be very effective in supporting the big lifts. At least that's my line of thinking.
Just keep accessory work light and purposeful, don't ever do it just because you can or whatever reason that doesn't relate back to a purpose. Reading somebody that says... I just do an extra 100 leg extensions for the burn is about stupid. My personal standpoint on accessory lifts is to do accessory exercises that support the main lifts, focus on a weak-point (i.e. frontal plane balance), and / or work towards injury prevention.
Pull-ups: Upper back supports ALL pressing exercises and balancing strength in the posterior deltoids helps balance the strength in your anterior deltoids; in other words, rotator cuff health.
Dips: These could be questioned but I personally think managing your bodyweight is important. A little extra support for shoulders, traps, tri's, chest.
Back Raises: Strengthen lower back, glutes, and hamstrings which are important in the squat and for general injury prevention
Rows: Similar to pull-ups, different loading and leverage
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Yea, agreed... and that's a big reason why 5/3/1 is so appealing to me, especially the triumvirate plan. But I tend to get lost when I over think getting stronger in my main lifts (I have goals, there), looking better (I have goals, there), improving my race times (I have goals, there), and simply being in better all-around shape (I have goals, there).0
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I tend to stick to exercises to balance whatever that day's main work is. Like pull-ups on military press day, rows on bench day, abs on deadlift day and hamstring work on squat day. I also do a lot of the same exercises for volume (after my AMRAP set I'll do 5x5-8 of the same exercise at a lighter weight).0
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Yea, agreed... and that's a big reason why 5/3/1 is so appealing to me, especially the triumvirate plan. But I tend to get lost when I over think getting stronger in my main lifts (I have goals, there), looking better (I have goals, there), improving my race times (I have goals, there), and simply being in better all-around shape (I have goals, there).
Consider setting your race times as your primary goals. Achieving this goal will require you to get stronger, so in-turn your lifts will get stronger. Remember that it's really not the accessory lifts that get you stronger, those are the minutia of your training, it's the main lifts. Furthermore, since you race, get some plyometrics into your training if you don't already. Things like Broad Jumps, Box Hop-Down into a Broad Jump, Box Jumps, are all good way to help add speed into your running time. There is lots and lots of research that shows plyometrics in-conjunction with strength training shave time off sprinters.
Lastly when training get too cerebral always get back to just the basics and make it simple. Mobility work, Plyo jumps, med ball throws, main worksets, crush the PR set, do key accessory work, some core work, stretch, go home and recover.0 -
Remember that it's really not the accessory lifts that get you stronger, those are the minutia of your training, it's the main lifts.
this is a good point to remember... a lot of people I'm seeing are getting really wrapped around the axle that they aren't moving up on their accessory lifts... they are accessories... they are a helpers- as long as it's a challenging weight- and it's not a barbie pink weight that doesn't make you work- you're fine. It doesn't HAVE to kick your *kitten* or make you suffer- it just has to be work.0 -
I also have ALL THE GOALZ! I want strength, but at the moment I'm also bulking to add mass. WIth the main lifts, I'm trying to get the most "well-rounded" session I can.
I'm doing something along the line of this:
Monday: 5/3/1 OHP, chin ups/underhand lat pulldowns, incline DB bench, Yates rows
Tuesday: 5/3/1 DL, front squats, weighted glute bridges, calf raises
Thursday: 5/3/1 Bench, seated rows, pull ups/wide grip lat pulldowns, DB OHP
Friday: 5/3/1 Squats, SLDL, Bulgarian split squats, calf raises
Saturday: bis/tris0 -
Remember that it's really not the accessory lifts that get you stronger, those are the minutia of your training, it's the main lifts.
this is a good point to remember... a lot of people I'm seeing are getting really wrapped around the axle that they aren't moving up on their accessory lifts... they are accessories... they are a helpers- as long as it's a challenging weight- and it's not a barbie pink weight that doesn't make you work- you're fine. It doesn't HAVE to kick your *kitten* or make you suffer- it just has to be work.
For some it takes some time and failure to get to that point and I hit that point a while back. Even if your goals aren't performance but just strength and size you still don't need to do a crazy amount of stuff. At work I get comments all the time about... "hey J, today must've been "arms" day, huh?" I get even stupider looks when I say, "there's no such thing as arms day." Last week my wife's girlfriend was shocked as hell that I don't do bicep curls and haven't done them in a very long time. She asked me how I work on my biceps then; I told her I did lots and lots of pull-ups. She doesn't believe me but it's the truth, I don't curl.0 -
I just started this program and will have to restart next week due to some back struggles this week and traveling. I still have no clue what to do for assistance work. I'm still cutting, but I want to be strong (I'm only 4 lbs away from goal) and lift as heavy as possible for where I am. I don't even know if this is the right program for me
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arditarose wrote: »I just started this program and will have to restart next week due to some back struggles this week and traveling. I still have no clue what to do for assistance work. I'm still cutting, but I want to be strong (I'm only 4 lbs away from goal) and lift as heavy as possible for where I am. I don't even know if this is the right program for me
For me accessory is personal preference. I need to start working on some sticky points in my lifts though. I am also not very smart and do 5/3/1 four day program in two days. Upper body and lower body days.0 -
Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »Remember that it's really not the accessory lifts that get you stronger, those are the minutia of your training, it's the main lifts.
this is a good point to remember... a lot of people I'm seeing are getting really wrapped around the axle that they aren't moving up on their accessory lifts... they are accessories... they are a helpers- as long as it's a challenging weight- and it's not a barbie pink weight that doesn't make you work- you're fine. It doesn't HAVE to kick your *kitten* or make you suffer- it just has to be work.
For some it takes some time and failure to get to that point and I hit that point a while back. Even if your goals aren't performance but just strength and size you still don't need to do a crazy amount of stuff. At work I get comments all the time about... "hey J, today must've been "arms" day, huh?" I get even stupider looks when I say, "there's no such thing as arms day." Last week my wife's girlfriend was shocked as hell that I don't do bicep curls and haven't done them in a very long time. She asked me how I work on my biceps then; I told her I did lots and lots of pull-ups. She doesn't believe me but it's the truth, I don't curl.
lulz- that's funny- I just had the same conversation with someone because I also- do no curls.
at all. Pull ups once a week for me.
I like rotating accessories - when I'm doing my own thing- because I like the different lifts I have- I just REALLY like all the lifts.
But the reality is- nope- don't need all of it- back when I was doing splits- I had a squat day- and a dead lift day- and each day only had 2 accessory lifts and that was it- was more than adequate!0 -
yopeeps025 wrote: »arditarose wrote: »I just started this program and will have to restart next week due to some back struggles this week and traveling. I still have no clue what to do for assistance work. I'm still cutting, but I want to be strong (I'm only 4 lbs away from goal) and lift as heavy as possible for where I am. I don't even know if this is the right program for me
For me accessory is personal preference. I need to start working on some sticky points in my lifts though. I am also not very smart and do 5/3/1 four day program in two days. Upper body and lower body days.
Yeah, my problem is I have a little bit of anxiety and I just want to DO EVERYTHING, though I'm starting to see now it's not always beneficial. I'm definitely doing it in 4 though ha.0 -
arditarose wrote: »yopeeps025 wrote: »arditarose wrote: »I just started this program and will have to restart next week due to some back struggles this week and traveling. I still have no clue what to do for assistance work. I'm still cutting, but I want to be strong (I'm only 4 lbs away from goal) and lift as heavy as possible for where I am. I don't even know if this is the right program for me
For me accessory is personal preference. I need to start working on some sticky points in my lifts though. I am also not very smart and do 5/3/1 four day program in two days. Upper body and lower body days.
Yeah, my problem is I have a little bit of anxiety and I just want to DO EVERYTHING, though I'm starting to see now it's not always beneficial. I'm definitely doing it in 4 though ha.
Bench and OHP was easy in the same day. It was squats and deadlifts that WAS difficult at first. Body is good at adapting. Also doing this allows me to try to beat the last set to failure rep count since I am basically doing the same workout twice. Sometimes I increase sometimes I don't.
Wednesday is usually a throw in whatever I feel like doing day. if leg day I do front squats and full cleans. Upper body is mostly back.
Also I do curl. I am trying to get that 135 curl. I am almost there at like 110-115. Those muscles are so small it takes so long to increase weight.0 -
You just focus on becoming stronger on the big 4 lifts. If you are focusing on assistance etc, then Wendler says 'Majoring in minors'. However, I tend to do BBB while bulking and bodybuilder work when cutting.0
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herrspoons wrote: »yopeeps025 wrote: »Also lets look at it this way. When your goal is to cut does assistance work have to be done. You won't build size and the muscle tear and repair from the three big lifts. That is the whole reason why so many say it is better to lift on a deficit. I do assistant work because I want to be able to do weighted pull ups some day.
If you're cutting it's a bit pointless doing a lot of assistance work. All I'm doing just now are rows and curls, mainly because the big four lifts don't, in my opinion, give enough work to those areas by themselves.
So...
Monday: 531 Squat, 55/65/75 Bench, 531 Row
Wednesday: 531 Deadlift, 531 Press, EZ Bar Curls
Friday: 531 Bench, 55/65/75 Rows, 55/65/75 Squat
That's plenty for a cut. Any more than that isn't really going to do anything.
Do some back raises and core work every day if that's the intended split. The back raises when done correctly actually get some good hamstring activation going and will strengthen your lower back a lot.0 -
I'm still here... I'm reading and mulling. Good conversation, all. Thanks. Keep it going.0
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yopeeps025 wrote: »arditarose wrote: »yopeeps025 wrote: »arditarose wrote: »I just started this program and will have to restart next week due to some back struggles this week and traveling. I still have no clue what to do for assistance work. I'm still cutting, but I want to be strong (I'm only 4 lbs away from goal) and lift as heavy as possible for where I am. I don't even know if this is the right program for me
For me accessory is personal preference. I need to start working on some sticky points in my lifts though. I am also not very smart and do 5/3/1 four day program in two days. Upper body and lower body days.
Yeah, my problem is I have a little bit of anxiety and I just want to DO EVERYTHING, though I'm starting to see now it's not always beneficial. I'm definitely doing it in 4 though ha.
Bench and OHP was easy in the same day. It was squats and deadlifts that WAS difficult at first. Body is good at adapting. Also doing this allows me to try to beat the last set to failure rep count since I am basically doing the same workout twice. Sometimes I increase sometimes I don't.
Wednesday is usually a throw in whatever I feel like doing day. if leg day I do front squats and full cleans. Upper body is mostly back.
Also I do curl. I am trying to get that 135 curl. I am almost there at like 110-115. Those muscles are so small it takes so long to increase weight.
yeah I never did squats and deads on the same day...
then I moved to Sheiko and was doing bench squat bench squat on some days and wanted to stab myself in the face.
seriously. LOL0 -
solarpower03 wrote: »You just focus on becoming stronger on the big 4 lifts. If you are focusing on assistance etc, then Wendler says 'Majoring in minors'. However, I tend to do BBB while bulking and bodybuilder work when cutting.
Ugh I'm so tempted to just to BBB all the time.0 -
then I moved to Sheiko and was doing bench squat bench squat on some days and wanted to stab myself in the face.
seriously. LOL
That is tough. Right now I'm doing this thing Jim calls "Volume Tap" and I Squat and Press heavy in the same session and it's rough. If I still DL'd I'd be DL'ing and Benching heavy in the same day too.0 -
arditarose wrote: »solarpower03 wrote: »You just focus on becoming stronger on the big 4 lifts. If you are focusing on assistance etc, then Wendler says 'Majoring in minors'. However, I tend to do BBB while bulking and bodybuilder work when cutting.
Ugh I'm so tempted to just to BBB all the time.
There's nothing wrong with that. You should get Jim's "Beyond 5/3/1". It has I believe a 28-week BBB challenge and it's pretty awesome if you're into BBB.
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Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
then I moved to Sheiko and was doing bench squat bench squat on some days and wanted to stab myself in the face.
seriously. LOL
That is tough. Right now I'm doing this thing Jim calls "Volume Tap" and I Squat and Press heavy in the same session and it's rough. If I still DL'd I'd be DL'ing and Benching heavy in the same day too.
yuuup
that's how a lot of mine run- I bench 3 days a week typically- or some variation- and it's brutal. Monday/Friday are squat/bench days and Wed is a bench/dead or rack pull day.
Any time you do 2 big ones back to back it's brutal. no matter which way you hack it.
Which is interesting to me- it's a whole different world of "hurt" than I'm used to.0 -
Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
then I moved to Sheiko and was doing bench squat bench squat on some days and wanted to stab myself in the face.
seriously. LOL
That is tough. Right now I'm doing this thing Jim calls "Volume Tap" and I Squat and Press heavy in the same session and it's rough. If I still DL'd I'd be DL'ing and Benching heavy in the same day too.
yuuup
that's how a lot of mine run- I bench 3 days a week typically- or some variation- and it's brutal. Monday/Friday are squat/bench days and Wed is a bench/dead or rack pull day.
Any time you do 2 big ones back to back it's brutal. no matter which way you hack it.
Which is interesting to me- it's a whole different world of "hurt" than I'm used to.
Which is part of why the whole accessory movement conversation is interesting to me. If you really push the main lifts hard, you shouldn't have much left in the tank for more accessory work unless you're a mutant.0 -
I'm not currently doing 5/3/1 - I'll get back to it probably around April.
But, while cutting, I tend to do a modified BBB - instead of 5x10, I do 3x10 of the opposite lift. IOW: if it's bench day, I'll do 3x10 @ 60% of OHP. I'll also do 3x10 of a challenging, but not impossible, pull/row. Basically, I feel it just gives me a little more consistency and work with the big lifts (and row/pull for balance).
Of course, every now and then I'll change things up, just because. I was doing SST for a while, just because I wanted to incorporate incline bench and front squats. It just seemed like the easiest way to do so, such that I didn't have to think about it.
When I was bulking, I did BBB as written, and even did the BBB 3 Month Challenge (the third month suuuuuucked with 5x10 @ 70% - all while increasing maxes). Then again, my goal is basically just to get stronger (and put on muscle, if/when possible) while keeping BF within a reasonable amount.0 -
Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
then I moved to Sheiko and was doing bench squat bench squat on some days and wanted to stab myself in the face.
seriously. LOL
That is tough. Right now I'm doing this thing Jim calls "Volume Tap" and I Squat and Press heavy in the same session and it's rough. If I still DL'd I'd be DL'ing and Benching heavy in the same day too.
yuuup
that's how a lot of mine run- I bench 3 days a week typically- or some variation- and it's brutal. Monday/Friday are squat/bench days and Wed is a bench/dead or rack pull day.
Any time you do 2 big ones back to back it's brutal. no matter which way you hack it.
Which is interesting to me- it's a whole different world of "hurt" than I'm used to.
Which is part of why the whole accessory movement conversation is interesting to me. If you really push the main lifts hard, you shouldn't have much left in the tank for more accessory work unless you're a mutant.
indeed.
Worse yet for me- I will leave after that tonight- full lifts + good morning or some such- DB flies or some such- and may be one other accessory- and head off to dance rehearsal.
After dance rehearsal I have 1.5 hours of technical drilling- which includes a full warm up with an squat endurance portion which you hold a static flat back squat for at least 2 minutes.
After 5 x 5 pause squats to depth. Fk me sideways.
its' the worse thing in the world- I feel like the biggest baby LOL.
Big lifts + endurance afterwards is just- stupid- and it makes me hate life.0 -
Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »Remember that it's really not the accessory lifts that get you stronger, those are the minutia of your training, it's the main lifts.
I think this is something that I lost sight of, and spent too much time worrying about secondary lifts to support the main lift, especially when my lifts stall.
I'll get back to basics... focus on one main lift 5/3/1 style each session, add a second major compound compound lift 3x8 or similar, then 1-2 secondary lifts that will likely change cycle to cycle depending on need/priority.
So it would look something like
day 1 - squat (5/3/1), bench (3x8), dips, core
day 2 - ohp (5/3/1), deads (3x8), pull ups, GHRs
day 3 - bench (5/3/1), rows (3x8), something for shoulders, core work
day 4 - RDLs (5/3/1), front squat (3x8), lat pulldowns, maybe something else
I'll work in things like sprints, farmers carries, box jumps, etc... probably on their own days, but I'll see how things feel and go from there.0 -
Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »Remember that it's really not the accessory lifts that get you stronger, those are the minutia of your training, it's the main lifts.
I think this is something that I lost sight of, and spent too much time worrying about secondary lifts to support the main lift, especially when my lifts stall.
I'll get back to basics... focus on one main lift 5/3/1 style each session, add a second major compound compound lift 3x8 or similar, then 1-2 secondary lifts that will likely change cycle to cycle depending on need/priority.
So it would look something like
day 1 - squat (5/3/1), bench (3x8), dips, core
day 2 - ohp (5/3/1), deads (3x8), pull ups, GHRs
day 3 - bench (5/3/1), rows (3x8), something for shoulders, core work
day 4 - RDLs (5/3/1), front squat (3x8), lat pulldowns, maybe something else
I'll work in things like sprints, farmers carries, box jumps, etc... probably on their own days, but I'll see how things feel and go from there.
What event(s) do you run? Do you have an off-season / in-season? If you can manage the $20/month, join Jim's site because you'll see some of what I'm talking about and see how 5/3/1 has evolved even more from the Beyond book.
Have you considered just going full body and training 3-days?
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