DEXTROSE POST TRAINING

tannatannabobanna

So the past few weeks ive been shoving dextrose down my fame in the form of gummy bears, and pixie sticks. It is starting to show results. Anyone have any long term use of dextrose and your result from it.

Wheelhouse15

I use gummies to restore glycogen after a hard workout or run but the spike in IGF-1 has not been shown to be anabolic. Still I like carbs and protien after a workout.

Tedebearduff

No, ideally you just need to create a insulin spike though, you can have something as simple as a fruit smoothie ... probably better and cheaper for you than a dextrose supplement.

Just my opinion not saying "I am right or this is the thing to do"

No_Finish_Line

supposedly dextrose is best at creating the insulin spike because its chemically identical to blood sugar and shouldn't require any further digestion to be absorbed.

When I was into it, I bought a 50 lbs bag from a baking supply source. it was cheap as hell, lasts forever.

I think its best claim to fame is that it does help a bit with recovery. take it/don't take it, that in itself will not add muscle or remove fat.

personally think its best use is before and during an athletic event

dieselbyte

Wheelhouse15 wrote: »

I use gummies to restore glycogen after a hard workout or run but the spike in IGF-1 has not been shown to be anabolic. Still I like carbs and protien after a workout.

^This. I believe Layne Norton did a study showing whey protein (30-40g) in itself is enough to spike insulin while stimulating muscle protein synthesis. Dextrose will create a slightly higher insulin response when taken with whey, thereby increasing MPS and mTor, but the anabolic effect post workout isn't significant when compared to caloric and macronutrient intake throughout the day. Bottom line - post workout nutrition takes a backseat to overall nutrition.

(that's my take, but had a nice debate on this subject a few weeks ago...)

AKDonF

Yes we did! I will give my take on this as well.

Dextrose post workout is definitely not a necessity. However, insulin is the single most anabolic hormone that the body produces. It literally turns the switch "on" for nutrient storage (as opposed to cortisol for breakdown and use).

That said, it is debatable (and under studied) whether this spike from dextrose above what whey provides is beneficial or not. My personal opinion is that you should do something to initiate an insulin response post workout just to counter the cortisol produced during workout. If you take whey, that may in itself be enough to maximally stimulate MPS. I don't think taking dextrose hurts, but it may not really help that much either if you take whey post workout. In the end do whatever you want and don't worry about missing something like this which is a small detail. If you got your diet dialed in and work hard and smart in the gym, you will get gains.

3laine75

I piddled about with it for a while, putting it in a workout shake (with maltodextrin (and whey)) after reading an article on carb timing, for cutting by Layne Norton. Probably worked (in a more efficient way than my sweets) but it prevented me having my snicker when I got home

I think it's for people more advanced and disciplined than me.

beastcompany

Dextrose supplementation is one of the biggest wastes of money out there...that and CLA, or glutamine.

Insulin spiking is also *kitten*, considering that people fail to take into consideration dose/content of previous meals & their effect on digestion rate.


Sorry OP, but you're not seeing better results thanks to eating gummy bears after your training session.
Sounds like ol' Dr. Jim Stoppani fooled you good.

AKDonF

I would never say that dextrose supplementation is the biggest waste of money out there for several reasons. I would also contend with viable science that insulin spiking is also not a waste.

First, dextrose is dirt cheap. When bulking, carbohydrates are king. Dextrose it is an inexpensive way to help fulfill carbohydrate needs for someone bulking. Its not like it is wasted or not used.

Second, while there is not sound evidence that it specifically increases MPS, there is clear evidence that insulin spiking does not work as a dichotomy; there are varying degrees. So while spiking insulin with whey alone is one thing, the effect is magnified when dextrose is utilized.

Insulin mediates glucose metabolism and uptake of carbohydrates and subsequently diminishes burning of fats and proteins for fuel (which is accelerated during weight lifting). MPS does not begin until glycogen stores in both the liver and skeletal muscle have been fully replenished and carbohydrate is being used primarily for fuel. Delaying this process certainly doesn't help MPS.

Third, flooding the bloodstream with carbohydrates facilitates MPS which is an energy demanding process and there is virtually zero possibility of de novo lipogenisis (formation of fat from carbohydrates or other non-fat sources). So all of the carbohydrates from the dextrose are going to immediate good use.

Admittedly these are details to the overall big picture, but they are not a waste of anything really.

dieselbyte

AKDonF wrote: »

I would never say that dextrose supplementation is the biggest waste of money out there for several reasons. I would also contend with viable science that insulin spiking is also not a waste.

First, dextrose is dirt cheap. When bulking, carbohydrates are king. Dextrose it is an inexpensive way to help fulfill carbohydrate needs for someone bulking. Its not like it is wasted or not used.

Second, while there is not sound evidence that it specifically increases MPS, there is clear evidence that insulin spiking does not work as a dichotomy; there are varying degrees. So while spiking insulin with whey alone is one thing, the effect is magnified when dextrose is utilized.

Insulin mediates glucose metabolism and uptake of carbohydrates and subsequently diminishes burning of fats and proteins for fuel (which is accelerated during weight lifting). MPS does not begin until glycogen stores in both the liver and skeletal muscle have been fully replenished and carbohydrate is being used primarily for fuel. Delaying this process certainly doesn't help MPS.

Third, flooding the bloodstream with carbohydrates facilitates MPS which is an energy demanding process and there is virtually zero possibility of de novo lipogenisis (formation of fat from carbohydrates or other non-fat sources). So all of the carbohydrates from the dextrose are going to immediate good use.

Admittedly these are details to the overall big picture, but they are not a waste of anything really.

Definitely agree with your first point. Carbs are king when bulking, and dextrose is inexpensive. It really does depend on the individual though - if you eat just for weight/muscle gain, and you don't care where your calories come from, then dextrose is a great option. For others, including myself, I'd rather eat and enjoy food than to drink my calories - but again, this is just personal preference.

To your other points, again, its just the debate on whether nutrient timing is truly as effective as you believe. You know my viewpoint - nutrient timing comes in dead last and doesn't cause any considerable or statistical advantage to muscle gain. And you know I respect your viewpoint. As to dextrose magnifying the effect of MPS, this is true, but it only a causes a slight increase, none that is statistically relevant.

As to your point of delaying MPS - you would have to fast for 24 hours to negate any increased MPS throught weightlifting - that would just be counter-productive. The question is whether I need to slam a protein shake with dextrose immediately after training, or can I wait to eat for a few hours?

As you stated, the big picture is key. I think @beastcompany was referring to supplement companies blowing catabolism way out of context, as if you will lose all of your gains if you don't slam protein and dextrose within a few minutes of training.

AKDonF

I respect your position and agree that supplement companies are mostly criminal. Likewise, I don't advocate much supplement use and will be the first to say that they are not necessary. Some very few things can provide a tiny edge and as has been said, overall nutrition is THE most important thing.

I personally train fasted so there is added incentive to take carbs post workout, but I have conceded that it is all details that may indeed not make much or any difference. I prefer to eat my calories too in general, but there are times during a bulk when it is difficult to get them all in in solid form.

In the end, I hope that some of the people that are newer to the sport learn why they do things rather than just do them because they are told to. The effects of insulin, testosterone, IGF-1, GH, phosphorylate, etc. can all be manipulated (to some degree) to achieve optimal results. I am not in some sort of competition with others when it comes to bodybuilding and lifting. Rather I desire to help others get to where they want to be while doing the same for myself. I relish the opportunity to learn new things and am open minded to hear what others may have learned. But I also believe in critical thinking and I need some supporting evidence to really invest in new ideas. I appreciate that there are some smart people on this forum that go out of their way to help others. My respect to those who know what they are talking about and seek to help others. @dieselbyte, you are in that group and as stated, I enjoy the debate.

Sarauk2sf

Current evidence suggests that there is no need to slam your whey protein/dextrose drink straight after working out. In fact, no need to use dextrose at all.


http://www.jissn.com/content/10/1/5

Nutrient timing revisited: is there a post-exercise anabolic window? : Alan Aragon & Brad Schoenfeld

AKDonF

Did you also read the interview with Alan Aragon and Brad Schoenfeld? They were asked if their met analysis swayed them to abandoned taking a post workout shake themselves. Alan stated that he would not. Also, there are lots of caveats, one of which is fasted training.

SideSteel

Sarauk2sf wrote: »

Current evidence suggests that there is no need to slam your whey protein/dextrose drink straight after working out. In fact, no need to use dextrose at all.


http://www.jissn.com/content/10/1/5

Nutrient timing revisited: is there a post-exercise anabolic window? : Alan Aragon & Brad Schoenfeld

^^ That ^^

Sarauk2sf

AKDonF wrote: »

Did you also read the interview with Alan Aragon and Brad Schoenfeld? They were asked if their met analysis swayed them to abandoned taking a post workout shake themselves. Alan stated that he would not. Also, there are lots of caveats, one of which is fasted training.

Yes, and conclusion in the study is in line with that. Read the points re protein and then re carbs. Also, the meal/drink does not have to contain dextrose - a relatively small amount of carbs is sufficient.

AKDonF

I agree, but the implication is that it is somewhat unknown with regards to whether or not it may be beneficial. From the final paragraph in the study,
"Even more so than with protein, carbohydrate dosage and timing relative to resistance training is a gray area lacking cohesive data to form concrete recommendations."
Since both authors stated in the interview that they would NOT abandon taking a post workout shake, I would conclude that although there is not an "anabolic window" so to speak, that whether or not timing protein/carbs post workout is optimal or not is still pretty inconclusive. And more than that it certainly doesn't hurt anything.

And yes, the carb source doesn't have to be dextrose, it can be anything. However, simple physiology is 1) that insulin is the storage hormone 2) dextrose is about as close as you can get to glucose 3) spikes in insulin are not absolute (meaning all or nothing) but rather there are varying degrees. Whey alone spikes insulin and combined with carbohydrates increases the spike. 4) insulin blunts the production of cortisol (which prevents nutrient storage). 5) Cortisol production is increased with resistance training.

So again, it is not beyond reason to use dextrose, but whether or not it helps or not is debatable. I would argue though that at the very least, it does not hurt.

AKDonF

Here is a direct quote from Brad Schoenfeld in another interview about the Meta-analysis

"Now there certainly is nothing wrong with consuming nutrients immediately after training. And the limitations of current research leave open the possibility that there may be a small but significant advantage that could be meaningful if your goal is absolute maximization of muscle mass."

Sarauk2sf

AKDonF wrote: »

Here is a direct quote from Brad Schoenfeld in another interview about the Meta-analysis

"Now there certainly is nothing wrong with consuming nutrients immediately after training. And the limitations of current research leave open the possibility that there may be a small but significant advantage that could be meaningful if your goal is absolute maximization of muscle mass."

Not sure of your point here. It is not in contradiction to what I posted.

Sarauk2sf

AKDonF wrote: »

I agree, but the implication is that it is somewhat unknown with regards to whether or not it may be beneficial. From the final paragraph in the study,
"Even more so than with protein, carbohydrate dosage and timing relative to resistance training is a gray area lacking cohesive data to form concrete recommendations."
Since both authors stated in the interview that they would NOT abandon taking a post workout shake, I would conclude that although there is not an "anabolic window" so to speak, that whether or not timing protein/carbs post workout is optimal or not is still pretty inconclusive. And more than that it certainly doesn't hurt anything.

And yes, the carb source doesn't have to be dextrose, it can be anything. However, simple physiology is 1) that insulin is the storage hormone 2) dextrose is about as close as you can get to glucose 3) spikes in insulin are not absolute (meaning all or nothing) but rather there are varying degrees. Whey alone spikes insulin and combined with carbohydrates increases the spike. 4) insulin blunts the production of cortisol (which prevents nutrient storage). 5) Cortisol production is increased with resistance training.

So again, it is not beyond reason to use dextrose, but whether or not it helps or not is debatable. I would argue though that at the very least, it does not hurt.

Never said it hurt.

Also, have a read further re the benefit of mixing carbs and protein for the benefit of spiking insulin for MPS.

SideSteel

Sarauk2sf wrote: »

AKDonF wrote: »

I agree, but the implication is that it is somewhat unknown with regards to whether or not it may be beneficial. From the final paragraph in the study,
"Even more so than with protein, carbohydrate dosage and timing relative to resistance training is a gray area lacking cohesive data to form concrete recommendations."
Since both authors stated in the interview that they would NOT abandon taking a post workout shake, I would conclude that although there is not an "anabolic window" so to speak, that whether or not timing protein/carbs post workout is optimal or not is still pretty inconclusive. And more than that it certainly doesn't hurt anything.

And yes, the carb source doesn't have to be dextrose, it can be anything. However, simple physiology is 1) that insulin is the storage hormone 2) dextrose is about as close as you can get to glucose 3) spikes in insulin are not absolute (meaning all or nothing) but rather there are varying degrees. Whey alone spikes insulin and combined with carbohydrates increases the spike. 4) insulin blunts the production of cortisol (which prevents nutrient storage). 5) Cortisol production is increased with resistance training.

So again, it is not beyond reason to use dextrose, but whether or not it helps or not is debatable. I would argue though that at the very least, it does not hurt.

Never said it hurt.

Also, have a read further re the benefit of mixing carbs and protein for the benefit of spiking insulin for MPS.

The point here being that if the dose of whey is large enough then insulin is spiked sufficiently to values known to maximize MPS.

That essentially means that attempting to further increase insulin beyond that point isn't beneficial to protein synthesis.

I'd love to see data showing or even suggesting that raising insulin above and beyond that, is beneficial. If so, then perhaps that's a reason to go for dextrose. I'm not aware of that data existing though.