DEXTROSE POST TRAINING
tannatannabobanna
Posts: 320 Member
So the past few weeks ive been shoving dextrose down my fame in the form of gummy bears, and pixie sticks. It is starting to show results. Anyone have any long term use of dextrose and your result from it.
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I use gummies to restore glycogen after a hard workout or run but the spike in IGF-1 has not been shown to be anabolic. Still I like carbs and protien after a workout.0
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No, ideally you just need to create a insulin spike though, you can have something as simple as a fruit smoothie ... probably better and cheaper for you than a dextrose supplement.
Just my opinion not saying "I am right or this is the thing to do"0 -
supposedly dextrose is best at creating the insulin spike because its chemically identical to blood sugar and shouldn't require any further digestion to be absorbed.
When I was into it, I bought a 50 lbs bag from a baking supply source. it was cheap as hell, lasts forever.
I think its best claim to fame is that it does help a bit with recovery. take it/don't take it, that in itself will not add muscle or remove fat.
personally think its best use is before and during an athletic event0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »I use gummies to restore glycogen after a hard workout or run but the spike in IGF-1 has not been shown to be anabolic. Still I like carbs and protien after a workout.
^This. I believe Layne Norton did a study showing whey protein (30-40g) in itself is enough to spike insulin while stimulating muscle protein synthesis. Dextrose will create a slightly higher insulin response when taken with whey, thereby increasing MPS and mTor, but the anabolic effect post workout isn't significant when compared to caloric and macronutrient intake throughout the day. Bottom line - post workout nutrition takes a backseat to overall nutrition.
(that's my take, but had a nice debate on this subject a few weeks ago...)
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Yes we did! I will give my take on this as well.
Dextrose post workout is definitely not a necessity. However, insulin is the single most anabolic hormone that the body produces. It literally turns the switch "on" for nutrient storage (as opposed to cortisol for breakdown and use).
That said, it is debatable (and under studied) whether this spike from dextrose above what whey provides is beneficial or not. My personal opinion is that you should do something to initiate an insulin response post workout just to counter the cortisol produced during workout. If you take whey, that may in itself be enough to maximally stimulate MPS. I don't think taking dextrose hurts, but it may not really help that much either if you take whey post workout. In the end do whatever you want and don't worry about missing something like this which is a small detail. If you got your diet dialed in and work hard and smart in the gym, you will get gains.
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I piddled about with it for a while, putting it in a workout shake (with maltodextrin (and whey)) after reading an article on carb timing, for cutting by Layne Norton. Probably worked (in a more efficient way than my sweets) but it prevented me having my snicker when I got home
I think it's for people more advanced and disciplined than me.
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Dextrose supplementation is one of the biggest wastes of money out there...that and CLA, or glutamine.
Insulin spiking is also *kitten*, considering that people fail to take into consideration dose/content of previous meals & their effect on digestion rate.
Sorry OP, but you're not seeing better results thanks to eating gummy bears after your training session.
Sounds like ol' Dr. Jim Stoppani fooled you good.0 -
I would never say that dextrose supplementation is the biggest waste of money out there for several reasons. I would also contend with viable science that insulin spiking is also not a waste.
First, dextrose is dirt cheap. When bulking, carbohydrates are king. Dextrose it is an inexpensive way to help fulfill carbohydrate needs for someone bulking. Its not like it is wasted or not used.
Second, while there is not sound evidence that it specifically increases MPS, there is clear evidence that insulin spiking does not work as a dichotomy; there are varying degrees. So while spiking insulin with whey alone is one thing, the effect is magnified when dextrose is utilized.
Insulin mediates glucose metabolism and uptake of carbohydrates and subsequently diminishes burning of fats and proteins for fuel (which is accelerated during weight lifting). MPS does not begin until glycogen stores in both the liver and skeletal muscle have been fully replenished and carbohydrate is being used primarily for fuel. Delaying this process certainly doesn't help MPS.
Third, flooding the bloodstream with carbohydrates facilitates MPS which is an energy demanding process and there is virtually zero possibility of de novo lipogenisis (formation of fat from carbohydrates or other non-fat sources). So all of the carbohydrates from the dextrose are going to immediate good use.
Admittedly these are details to the overall big picture, but they are not a waste of anything really.0 -
I would never say that dextrose supplementation is the biggest waste of money out there for several reasons. I would also contend with viable science that insulin spiking is also not a waste.
First, dextrose is dirt cheap. When bulking, carbohydrates are king. Dextrose it is an inexpensive way to help fulfill carbohydrate needs for someone bulking. Its not like it is wasted or not used.
Second, while there is not sound evidence that it specifically increases MPS, there is clear evidence that insulin spiking does not work as a dichotomy; there are varying degrees. So while spiking insulin with whey alone is one thing, the effect is magnified when dextrose is utilized.
Insulin mediates glucose metabolism and uptake of carbohydrates and subsequently diminishes burning of fats and proteins for fuel (which is accelerated during weight lifting). MPS does not begin until glycogen stores in both the liver and skeletal muscle have been fully replenished and carbohydrate is being used primarily for fuel. Delaying this process certainly doesn't help MPS.
Third, flooding the bloodstream with carbohydrates facilitates MPS which is an energy demanding process and there is virtually zero possibility of de novo lipogenisis (formation of fat from carbohydrates or other non-fat sources). So all of the carbohydrates from the dextrose are going to immediate good use.
Admittedly these are details to the overall big picture, but they are not a waste of anything really.
Definitely agree with your first point. Carbs are king when bulking, and dextrose is inexpensive. It really does depend on the individual though - if you eat just for weight/muscle gain, and you don't care where your calories come from, then dextrose is a great option. For others, including myself, I'd rather eat and enjoy food than to drink my calories - but again, this is just personal preference.
To your other points, again, its just the debate on whether nutrient timing is truly as effective as you believe. You know my viewpoint - nutrient timing comes in dead last and doesn't cause any considerable or statistical advantage to muscle gain. And you know I respect your viewpoint. As to dextrose magnifying the effect of MPS, this is true, but it only a causes a slight increase, none that is statistically relevant.
As to your point of delaying MPS - you would have to fast for 24 hours to negate any increased MPS throught weightlifting - that would just be counter-productive. The question is whether I need to slam a protein shake with dextrose immediately after training, or can I wait to eat for a few hours?
As you stated, the big picture is key. I think @beastcompany was referring to supplement companies blowing catabolism way out of context, as if you will lose all of your gains if you don't slam protein and dextrose within a few minutes of training.0 -
I respect your position and agree that supplement companies are mostly criminal. Likewise, I don't advocate much supplement use and will be the first to say that they are not necessary. Some very few things can provide a tiny edge and as has been said, overall nutrition is THE most important thing.
I personally train fasted so there is added incentive to take carbs post workout, but I have conceded that it is all details that may indeed not make much or any difference. I prefer to eat my calories too in general, but there are times during a bulk when it is difficult to get them all in in solid form.
In the end, I hope that some of the people that are newer to the sport learn why they do things rather than just do them because they are told to. The effects of insulin, testosterone, IGF-1, GH, phosphorylate, etc. can all be manipulated (to some degree) to achieve optimal results. I am not in some sort of competition with others when it comes to bodybuilding and lifting. Rather I desire to help others get to where they want to be while doing the same for myself. I relish the opportunity to learn new things and am open minded to hear what others may have learned. But I also believe in critical thinking and I need some supporting evidence to really invest in new ideas. I appreciate that there are some smart people on this forum that go out of their way to help others. My respect to those who know what they are talking about and seek to help others. @dieselbyte, you are in that group and as stated, I enjoy the debate.0 -
Current evidence suggests that there is no need to slam your whey protein/dextrose drink straight after working out. In fact, no need to use dextrose at all.
http://www.jissn.com/content/10/1/5
Nutrient timing revisited: is there a post-exercise anabolic window? : Alan Aragon & Brad Schoenfeld
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Did you also read the interview with Alan Aragon and Brad Schoenfeld? They were asked if their met analysis swayed them to abandoned taking a post workout shake themselves. Alan stated that he would not. Also, there are lots of caveats, one of which is fasted training.0
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Current evidence suggests that there is no need to slam your whey protein/dextrose drink straight after working out. In fact, no need to use dextrose at all.
http://www.jissn.com/content/10/1/5
Nutrient timing revisited: is there a post-exercise anabolic window? : Alan Aragon & Brad Schoenfeld
^^ That ^^
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Did you also read the interview with Alan Aragon and Brad Schoenfeld? They were asked if their met analysis swayed them to abandoned taking a post workout shake themselves. Alan stated that he would not. Also, there are lots of caveats, one of which is fasted training.
Yes, and conclusion in the study is in line with that. Read the points re protein and then re carbs. Also, the meal/drink does not have to contain dextrose - a relatively small amount of carbs is sufficient.0 -
I agree, but the implication is that it is somewhat unknown with regards to whether or not it may be beneficial. From the final paragraph in the study,
"Even more so than with protein, carbohydrate dosage and timing relative to resistance training is a gray area lacking cohesive data to form concrete recommendations."
Since both authors stated in the interview that they would NOT abandon taking a post workout shake, I would conclude that although there is not an "anabolic window" so to speak, that whether or not timing protein/carbs post workout is optimal or not is still pretty inconclusive. And more than that it certainly doesn't hurt anything.
And yes, the carb source doesn't have to be dextrose, it can be anything. However, simple physiology is 1) that insulin is the storage hormone 2) dextrose is about as close as you can get to glucose 3) spikes in insulin are not absolute (meaning all or nothing) but rather there are varying degrees. Whey alone spikes insulin and combined with carbohydrates increases the spike. 4) insulin blunts the production of cortisol (which prevents nutrient storage). 5) Cortisol production is increased with resistance training.
So again, it is not beyond reason to use dextrose, but whether or not it helps or not is debatable. I would argue though that at the very least, it does not hurt.0 -
Here is a direct quote from Brad Schoenfeld in another interview about the Meta-analysis
"Now there certainly is nothing wrong with consuming nutrients immediately after training. And the limitations of current research leave open the possibility that there may be a small but significant advantage that could be meaningful if your goal is absolute maximization of muscle mass."
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Here is a direct quote from Brad Schoenfeld in another interview about the Meta-analysis
"Now there certainly is nothing wrong with consuming nutrients immediately after training. And the limitations of current research leave open the possibility that there may be a small but significant advantage that could be meaningful if your goal is absolute maximization of muscle mass."
Not sure of your point here. It is not in contradiction to what I posted.0 -
I agree, but the implication is that it is somewhat unknown with regards to whether or not it may be beneficial. From the final paragraph in the study,
"Even more so than with protein, carbohydrate dosage and timing relative to resistance training is a gray area lacking cohesive data to form concrete recommendations."
Since both authors stated in the interview that they would NOT abandon taking a post workout shake, I would conclude that although there is not an "anabolic window" so to speak, that whether or not timing protein/carbs post workout is optimal or not is still pretty inconclusive. And more than that it certainly doesn't hurt anything.
And yes, the carb source doesn't have to be dextrose, it can be anything. However, simple physiology is 1) that insulin is the storage hormone 2) dextrose is about as close as you can get to glucose 3) spikes in insulin are not absolute (meaning all or nothing) but rather there are varying degrees. Whey alone spikes insulin and combined with carbohydrates increases the spike. 4) insulin blunts the production of cortisol (which prevents nutrient storage). 5) Cortisol production is increased with resistance training.
So again, it is not beyond reason to use dextrose, but whether or not it helps or not is debatable. I would argue though that at the very least, it does not hurt.
Never said it hurt.
Also, have a read further re the benefit of mixing carbs and protein for the benefit of spiking insulin for MPS.0 -
I agree, but the implication is that it is somewhat unknown with regards to whether or not it may be beneficial. From the final paragraph in the study,
"Even more so than with protein, carbohydrate dosage and timing relative to resistance training is a gray area lacking cohesive data to form concrete recommendations."
Since both authors stated in the interview that they would NOT abandon taking a post workout shake, I would conclude that although there is not an "anabolic window" so to speak, that whether or not timing protein/carbs post workout is optimal or not is still pretty inconclusive. And more than that it certainly doesn't hurt anything.
And yes, the carb source doesn't have to be dextrose, it can be anything. However, simple physiology is 1) that insulin is the storage hormone 2) dextrose is about as close as you can get to glucose 3) spikes in insulin are not absolute (meaning all or nothing) but rather there are varying degrees. Whey alone spikes insulin and combined with carbohydrates increases the spike. 4) insulin blunts the production of cortisol (which prevents nutrient storage). 5) Cortisol production is increased with resistance training.
So again, it is not beyond reason to use dextrose, but whether or not it helps or not is debatable. I would argue though that at the very least, it does not hurt.
Never said it hurt.
Also, have a read further re the benefit of mixing carbs and protein for the benefit of spiking insulin for MPS.
The point here being that if the dose of whey is large enough then insulin is spiked sufficiently to values known to maximize MPS.
That essentially means that attempting to further increase insulin beyond that point isn't beneficial to protein synthesis.
I'd love to see data showing or even suggesting that raising insulin above and beyond that, is beneficial. If so, then perhaps that's a reason to go for dextrose. I'm not aware of that data existing though.0 -
I think we agree on the things that matter. I guess my point in all of this is that there are a lot of people that have seen this study and misuse it to say that there is no benefit to taking a post workout shake.
But that is not what they studied and reviewed. The review was whether or not there is an 'anabolic window' which is to say that muscle muscular adaptations are ineffective if there is a delay in providing protein in the immediate period surrounding the training bout. In simpler terms, is the workout unproductive because of consuming nutrients within a longer time frame than immediately post workout. The answer is "no" which seems common sense to me anyway.
But there is a world of difference between ineffective and optimized. It may seem a small detail (and it is) to take a PWO shake, but my question is why wouldn't you try to optimize everything you can? Yeah, I agree you don't have to. But gaining muscle is really hard and I want every advantage that I can.0 -
I think we agree on the things that matter. I guess my point in all of this is that there are a lot of people that have seen this study and misuse it to say that there is no benefit to taking a post workout shake.
But that is not what they studied and reviewed. The review was whether or not there is an 'anabolic window' which is to say that muscle muscular adaptations are ineffective if there is a delay in providing protein in the immediate period surrounding the training bout. In simpler terms, is the workout unproductive because of consuming nutrients within a longer time frame than immediately post workout. The answer is "no" which seems common sense to me anyway.
But there is a world of difference between ineffective and optimized. It may seem a small detail (and it is) to take a PWO shake, but my question is why wouldn't you try to optimize everything you can? Yeah, I agree you don't have to. But gaining muscle is really hard and I want every advantage that I can.
Still not seeing where what I have posted disagrees with that.
I really am not sure what you are disagreeing with at this point.
However, back to 'is a large dose of dextrose of any benefit' - not necessarily - it depends on the context such as how much whey you are having, whether you are having other carbs etc.
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I think we agree on the things that matter. I guess my point in all of this is that there are a lot of people that have seen this study and misuse it to say that there is no benefit to taking a post workout shake.
But that is not what they studied and reviewed. The review was whether or not there is an 'anabolic window' which is to say that muscle muscular adaptations are ineffective if there is a delay in providing protein in the immediate period surrounding the training bout. In simpler terms, is the workout unproductive because of consuming nutrients within a longer time frame than immediately post workout. The answer is "no" which seems common sense to me anyway.
But there is a world of difference between ineffective and optimized. It may seem a small detail (and it is) to take a PWO shake, but my question is why wouldn't you try to optimize everything you can? Yeah, I agree you don't have to. But gaining muscle is really hard and I want every advantage that I can.
The majority of arguments I've seen center around your bolded statement and take an "all or nothing" approach. I call them arguments, because most included in the argument don't have a real understanding of the topic. One side either spews bro-science because it was told to them by some gear-head at the gym or by some supplement magazine, or the other side misuses scientific articles in an attempt to prove a point.
From the knowledgeable parties included, I consider this a debate centered around optimal results. We all know that the "30 minute" anabolic window doesn't exist. We also know that depending on pre-workout nutrition, i.e. training fasted, post workout nutrition becomes slightly more important in the short term for net protein balance. In an interview form 2012, Alan Aragon even stated that while intermittent fasting works for bodybuilding competitors, he questions whether it is optimal for muscle retention when dieting (I know this is a gaining weight thread). Alan futher states in the interview that he "would go as far as to say that attempting to precisely time nutrients is largely an exercise in jerking off hypotheses compared to hitting daily totals"
http://www.machinemuscle.com/interview-with-nutrition-expert-alan-aragon/
I know we all agree that post workout nutrition means nothing if your total nutrition and caloric intake is off.
Is dextrose supplementation with a protein shake necessary for muscle gain? Is nutrient timing necessary for muscle gain? No, not in the least. Will nutrient timing and dextrose supplementation produce optimal results over the long-term? The science isn't there one way or the other, but I say no. I personally believe that any increase in muscle mass from nutrient timing and insulin spiking will not be scientifcally significant over the long term, especially because every major aspect of nutrition and training needs to be on point. Someone else though can argue that if all major aspects of nutrition and training are on point, nutrient timing can lead to a small amount of muscle gain. Even if that gain is only 1lb over a year, someone can argue that 1lb is optimal. So it really comes down to personal preference.
I respect that @AKDonf is seeking any advantage possible, as that is optimal for his situation, and I respect that he isn't ignorantly saying nutrient timing is a must. But for me, I'd rather not be stressed if too many minutes pass after training and I haven't had a protein shake. I could go without 1lb of muscle more a year - that's optimal for me.
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To add to the above, trying to eek out a small and theoretical advantage of consuming fast acting carbs (of which dextrose is one - but by no means the only one) immediately post workout may well be missing the forest for the trees. Generally, and assuming nutrition for the day is on point and there is not a large gap between meals, pre-workout carbs are likely to be more beneficial as this can improve your workout and as such, improve MPS. Point here is that by focusing on one thing, or including too many things to worry about, the basics can be missed, or made harder to adhere to.
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To add to the above, trying to eek out a small and theoretical advantage of consuming fast acting carbs (of which dextrose is one - but by no means the only one) immediately post workout may well be missing the forest for the trees. Generally, and assuming nutrition for the day is on point and there is not a large gap between meals, pre-workout carbs are likely to be more beneficial as this can improve your workout and as such, improve MPS. I suppose what I am trying to say is that by focusing on one thing, or including too many things to worry about, the basics can be missed, or made harder to adhere to.
That was exactly my point in an earlier debate with @AKDonF. Many individuals will focus on a small piece instead of the total picture, thereby making the small piece irrelevant. We all know that the results the OP has seen isn't due to slamming dextrose, especially since its only been a few weeks, and the concern here would be for him to focus solely on PWO nutrition.
However, it seems @AKDonF is in the know, so I can't hold it against him if he's trying to eek out any possible advantage.0 -
I agree with both of the above. The only caveat really is that there is no one size fits all. I train fasted and believe that it may have some benefit. My rationale is not unfounded though. See http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00421-009-1289-x
That said, I am also older (49) and there is evidence that these conditions may favor the use of both protein & carbohydrates PWO. As everything that has been said thus far, it is not absolutely conclusive. I don't find it stressful to take carbs/protein in the form of a shake PWO. It is no more difficult than tracking macros. So maybe it helps and maybe it doesn't. By the same token, if I cant get the shake in or if I forget or whatever else, I wont have a nervous breakdown or even miss stride.
In the end, if a PWO shake causes stress, I agree; no need to worry about it. I am not arguing with any of what is being said. What I am saying is don't dismiss something as irrelevant when in reality some protocols do have benefit for some. If nothing else, examining the small details fuels my OCD.0 -
I agree with both of the above. The only caveat really is that there is no one size fits all. I train fasted and believe that it may have some benefit. My rationale is not unfounded though. See http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00421-009-1289-x
That said, I am also older (49) and there is evidence that these conditions may favor the use of both protein & carbohydrates PWO. As everything that has been said thus far, it is not absolutely conclusive. I don't find it stressful to take carbs/protein in the form of a shake PWO. It is no more difficult than tracking macros. So maybe it helps and maybe it doesn't. By the same token, if I cant get the shake in or if I forget or whatever else, I wont have a nervous breakdown or even miss stride.
In the end, if a PWO shake causes stress, I agree; no need to worry about it. I am not arguing with any of what is being said. What I am saying is don't dismiss something as irrelevant when in reality some protocols do have benefit for some. If nothing else, examining the small details fuels my OCD.
If you train fasted, then I would suggest that it would be more likely to be of benefit (well, carbs in general) - as is indicated in the link I provided. Same with BCAAs - while there is varying evidence to suggest they may or may not help - if you train fasted and as long as you can afford it, it is not a bad 'insurance policy'.
It's not about stress - its more about adherence. The comments I am making are really more for the benefit of others who may think they need to slam their dextrose/protein mix within 5 seconds of their last rep. You seem pretty aware of the limits of the possible benefits.
One slightly off topic comment - you are already probably aware, but as you get older, there is evidence to suggest the need to bolus your protein is increased.
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Great points. Yeah, I do take BCAAs. I did get off topic a little. Definitely the take away (for the benefit of anyone reading this) is GET THE BASICS RIGHT above all else. Nutrition is incredibly important to success.0
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