Training beyond your target HR question

McCloud33

Looking for some insight on target HR training.

I'm a male, 32 years old and so according to the general equation, my MAX HR should be around (220-32) or 188. All of the literature says that cardio activities should take place in the 50-85% range, which would put me at 94-160 bpm.

Here's the thing though. My resting HR is in the mid 40s and I don't even hardly feel like I'm putting in a good workout until my HR reaches 150+. And if I'm running a 7.5 min/mile pace, my HR will be up around 180-185 (95-98% of MAX). I'll keep that pace anywhere from 3-5 miles usually (20-40min).

So is my MAX just higher than the theoretical, or am I actually training outside of the cardio zone, and if so, is there anything wrong with that?

sgonzalezblanco

In for the info; I've got the same issue.

brianpperkins

That simplistic formula doesn't work for many people. There are multiple HR based fitness tests to calculate HR from functional testing versus an arbitrary age based formula.

kcjchang

The guidelines are for the general public not trained athletes. With a resting heart rate in the mid 40s, I say you are either fit or need medical attention. Keep in mind that heart rate monitor does one thing and one thing only, count your heart rate (see http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/Azdak/view/the-real-facts-about-hrms-and-calories-what-you-need-to-know-before-purchasing-an-hrm-or-using-one-21472). It's akin to rpm and gas level in a car where HR is the amount of gas left and you are drawing conclusion on the engine's rpm base on it. It's reflective what is happening, higher rpm tends to require more gas, but cannot tell you everything.

You should set your percentages based on your lactate threshold (see http://www.usatriathlon.org/about-multisport/multisport-zone/multisport-lab/articles/understanding-lactate-threshold-heart-rate-training-021511.aspx & http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/power-training-levels) (Sorry, I'm a cyclist who hates running). And Yes/No depending on what you are trying to accomplish. The adage of "miles build champions" and "no pain, no gain" comes into mind. One needs base level conditioning as well as a shot in the legs to peak to the next plateau.

WalkingAlong

The 220 minus age formula never worked for me, either. I can get mine way over that. Cardio Coach (google it) recommends you find your own actual max HR (as high as you can get yours) and base your zones off of that, back when I used his audios for HIIT cardio.

The zones don't really matter for much, too. Don't feel like you need to workout below 85% of your own max if you prefer otherwise. I think it's useful for people who hate working out at very high HR (probably the norm) to see they don't need to. Or for people who think they're getting a workout but their HR is barely elevated. But if you're not gasping for breath or comfortably able to hold a conversation, you're probably fine.

MeanderingMammal

McCloud33 wrote: »

So is my MAX just higher than the theoretical,

Yes.

My tempo HR is higher than my theoretical MHR.

Jruzer

There's noting theoretical about 220-age as far as I'm concerned; I think it's just a poor guideline from top to bottom.

My situation sounds similar to yours, OP. My max heart rate is well over 200 bpm; according to the formula it should be below 180. I routinely exercise at 170 bpm. Mr RHR is in the low 50s also, although this has gone down as I've grown more conditioned.

ninerbuff

It's a guideline. Train where you feel you're challenging yourself. You'll know where your limits are based on how you're breathing.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

RunRachelleRun

I agree with kcjchang. I finally went in November and had my lactate and VO2 max tested by a kinesiologist. I'm 41 as I knew by my heart rate monitor that my max is above average, over 200. My zone 1 (139-154 bpm) is the same as zone 4 or 5 for others. I was mostly running in zones 2 and 4 when I trained for my last half marathon, and my trainer said these are mainly junk zones; it meant I couldn't progress as I had most been working too hard (or occasionally not hard enough by not going over 140 like the gym machines advised for my age) to ever build a good base. I did have a high anaerobic threshold, but this is useless without an aerobic base (primarily zone 1). I've seen a few articles online you can use to figure yours out on your own without having the lactate test, but I'd say it was well worth the 150 dollars I spent. I haven't found the V02 max to be useful in any way, but when I get tested again, I suppose it will be motivating to see improvement. Otherwise, just going by effort, I have found I am sweating in Zone 1 and it feels hard, but I am able to hold a conversation.

Azdak

Yes, no, no.

cwolfman13

McCloud33 wrote: »

Looking for some insight on target HR training.

I'm a male, 32 years old and so according to the general equation, my MAX HR should be around (220-32) or 188. All of the literature says that cardio activities should take place in the 50-85% range, which would put me at 94-160 bpm.

Here's the thing though. My resting HR is in the mid 40s and I don't even hardly feel like I'm putting in a good workout until my HR reaches 150+. And if I'm running a 7.5 min/mile pace, my HR will be up around 180-185 (95-98% of MAX). I'll keep that pace anywhere from 3-5 miles usually (20-40min).

So is my MAX just higher than the theoretical, or am I actually training outside of the cardio zone, and if so, is there anything wrong with that?

Very likely your max is higher...you're using a very generic calculation that is very much a huge estimate. To truly know you would have to know your true VO2 max.

yopeeps025

Here is another reason why your genetics are so wow. Although during my hiit when I used to use a HRM is was in the 95-100% of max heart rate. I have been told to never train in this because you can go into cardiac arrest. Then I say well how I do HIIT when I have to get that high.

jdhcm2006

This makes me feel a little better b/c during hard cardio workouts I can get my HR well into the 220s and people would question that. So now I'll take the formula with a grain of salt like, I take the BMI chart with a grain of salt.

jrsquire1

Simply put, MHR has a few different ways of being found, however research is leaning towards the mindblowing fact that everyone, is in fact, unique in their physiology. So, generic formulas has degrees of error.

I've always believed in listening to your body. So, here's the way I do it.

Get your HR monitor and go for a run/ride. Estabilish your steady state (~3-5 minutes) then assess whether you can comfortably talk. If so, you are below Ventilatory Threshold 1 (VT1) this is generally an aerobic phase of exercise known as Zone 1 by ACE (American Coucil on Exercise).

Pay attention to when you begin to feel as if it would be somewhat uncomfortable to talk (take note of your HR as you move into this feeling). This is your transition above VT1, where lactate begins to accumulate in your system and you must increase your respiratory rate to blow off the acidic Co2 in your bloodstream (belwo VT1 you were able to adjust to Co2 increasing by increasing the amount of air you inhaled and exhaled in each breath, your tidal volume). This zone, above VT1, is known as Zone 2 by ACE and is used for interval training, but it is frequently where many amature atheletes will do a majority of their training unbeknownst to them. This zone is a mix of aerobic and anaerobic metabolism.

And finally, once you get to the point where you feel it would be extremely uncomfortable to talk or maybe only get out one word at a time without gasping, you have reached Ventilatory Threshold 2 (VT2) (pay attention to your HR at this transition as well). Above VT2 is known as Zone 3 and can only be sustained for ~20-30 minutes max as your blood lactate is increasing exponentially despite your body's best efforts to remove it by blowing off Co2 as fast as it can. This phase is mostly anaerobic in metabolism.

To answer the OP's question, there is absolutely nothing wrong with training outside your calculated "max" HR, I have only ever gotten my HR 5 beats above my calculated max.

Listen to your body. If you have no medical issues or exercise restrictions from your doctor and experience no unsual pains in Zone 3, I say try to push in that Zone 3 if you want to develop a better Vo2 max and increase your anaerobic capacity.

McCloud33

So are the VO2 max calculators online just as inaccurate as the stardarized HRmax equation? The one I found shapesense.com/fitness-exercise/calculators/vo2max-calculator.aspx would put me at a VO2 of 68ml/kg/min...which is pretty much off of their charts

beemerphile1

There are at least half a dozen mathematical formulas for max HR. All of them are only estimates.

You can get a stress test to determine your max or there are methods/tests for figuring it out yourself. One way is to hammer a hill on a bicycle, your HR at the top is at or near your max.

Sam_I_Am77

The 220-age is a basic formula but it's a good guideline. Getting an actual VO2 test would be ideal. I don't know where the only workout between x and y came from. Here's what you should consider and my numbers might be slightly off, so look-it up too, but basically.

Training Zone-1: This is largely aerobic training zone, basic, low intensity. This is approximately 65% to 75% of your max heart rate.

Training Zone-2: This is a mix of both aerobic and anaerobic, moderate intensity. This is approximately 80% to 85% of max.

Training Zone-3: This is the most intense and is entirely anerobic in-nature, this zone is approximately 86% - 90% of max.

Sample cardio sessions could look like...

Zone-1 only: 30-60 min's keeping your heart rate betweeen 65% and 75%

Zone-2 only: 30-min's max or something like 3-min Zone-1 / 3-min / Zone-2 as intervals

Zone-3: An interval could look something like...
*warm-up: 5-min's
zone-3: 1-min
zone-2: 1-min
zone-3: 1-min
zone-2: 1-min
zone-3: 1-min
zone-1: 3-min
**That's one set, repeat for 2 to 3 sets which is approximately 16min - 24-min's in session length.

Zone-3 is where a lot of your sprinting type work is going to come into play. You can also do things like 6-sec max sprint followed by 30-sec walk or light jog; there are a lot of ways to play with training zones.

RunRachelleRun

beemerphile1 wrote: »

There are at least half a dozen mathematical formulas for max HR. All of them are only estimates.

You can get a stress test to determine your max or there are methods/tests for figuring it out yourself. One way is to hammer a hill on a bicycle, your HR at the top is at or near your max.

I had a stress test earlier last year and it was nothing like the VO2/lactate test. The stress test took about 10 minutes and was looking for indications od heart problems whereas the VO2 max took about 40 and was specific to sport. The stress test only took my heart rate up to what was expected to be my max for my age, which for me was 180. They didn't care when I told them my max was higher, low 200s, and I could go a lot longer. I would not recommend a stress test for finding max hr.

Azdak

HopetoRun wrote: »

beemerphile1 wrote: »

There are at least half a dozen mathematical formulas for max HR. All of them are only estimates.

You can get a stress test to determine your max or there are methods/tests for figuring it out yourself. One way is to hammer a hill on a bicycle, your HR at the top is at or near your max.

I had a stress test earlier last year and it was nothing like the VO2/lactate test. The stress test took about 10 minutes and was looking for indications od heart problems whereas the VO2 max took about 40 and was specific to sport. The stress test only took my heart rate up to what was expected to be my max for my age, which for me was 180. They didn't care when I told them my max was higher, low 200s, and I could go a lot longer. I would not recommend a stress test for finding max hr.

Agreed. Most medical people have no clue about how to properly conduct a graded exercise test.

Azdak

McCloud33 wrote: »

So are the VO2 max calculators online just as inaccurate as the stardarized HRmax equation? The one I found shapesense.com/fitness-exercise/calculators/vo2max-calculator.aspx would put me at a VO2 of 68ml/kg/min...which is pretty much off of their charts

Pretty much. No matter what algorithm they use, they are all fundamentally based on the HR-VO2 relationship and the variability of HR max that is inherent in the population.