building muscle whilst slimming down

cajuntank

AllanMisner wrote: »

herrspoons wrote: »

AllanMisner wrote: »

Yes, you can gain muscle (strength and mass) while you lose fat. You won’t be optimizing either one of these, but you can do both at the same time. The trick is to really work on your eating and make sure your macros support what you’re doing. That isn’t easy and is slightly different for each person.

I'd argue that, unless you're very lean already or obese and training naïve, it's an incredibly inefficient way of going about things, and that better results will be yielded from focusing on one goal at the expense of the other.

As I said, it isn’t the optimal way, but it can be done. Most bodybuilders choose to bulk and cut because it gets them mass faster. If he’s providing appropriate stimulus, protein and rest/recovery, he will gain strength and mass. The muscles aren’t going to refuse to adapt just because he’s running 200 calories short. He might have energy/fatigue to manage, which is why meal timing can be important.

Don't agree. You are correct that the muscle's are going to refuse to adapt as long as you are providing increased stimuli; however utilizing existing muscle better and increasing their mass are two different things. In a deficit, you are already handicapping the body by not providing it enough energy to use to do something that is costly to the body (it's trying to do what it can with what you have with the deficit already). Plus, when you are in a deficit, you are shifting your hormonal profile to one that is generally catabolic, not anabolic. So in a caloric deficit, can you build muscle...sure, but you will also lose some as its a ever ongoing process. It's the overall net result that will be close to 0 to very little lost if you are doing it right (again, after newbie gains are done). Research Eric Helms on the matter. I know he has discussed this some.

Pelamblue

So what you are both saying if I understand this correctly is to train heavy to gain, but at the expense of some muscle loss cut the calories to loose the weight??
But the way very interesting and incietful in what you are both sayino... Thankyou

AllanMisner

I’ve done quite a bit of research on the matter, applied it to my own training (successfully) and seen it work on others. We’re not talking about major deficit, but rather 200 - 300 calories per day on average. The heavy lifting increases active testosterone (especially in men) and having adequate fuel for the lifting sessions and adequate protein for the muscle repair/building and there is no reason for the body to go into a catabolic state. The fat burning is going to occur on the low intensity cardio and rest days when the slight deficit allows for moderate fat usage.

This is not an optimized model for either fat loss or muscle gain, but a compromise approach that allows for a moderate amount of each. The thing about newbie gains is that it takes a while to lose that newbieness. It could be 9 months to a year before he sees a plateau and will have to adjust his eating and/or training.

In either case, assume you’re right. The lifting will help him hold on to muscle while losing some fat (assuming a modest deficit). Beyond lifting heavy, eating good macros at a slight deficit and getting plenty of rest, is there anything you’d add or change? I believe he can accomplish both if he stays committed and disciplined in his training and fueling.

sjaplo

Y'know threads like these are why I keep coming back to these forums - thanks you all for sharing your info.

So using the same info - you could build muscle eating at maintenance or slightly over, once you reach your goal weight?

DymonNdaRgh40

To the above... yes you can.

sjaplo

Interesting - I have certainly gained strength over the last year lifting while in a defecit, but I haven't gained any muscle, that I can measure anyway. Looking forward to trying it when I get the last 8-10 lbs shed.

AllanMisner

sjaplo wrote: »

Interesting - I have certainly gained strength over the last year lifting while in a defecit, but I haven't gained any muscle, that I can measure anyway. Looking forward to trying it when I get the last 8-10 lbs shed.

What is your average daily deficit? What is you protein intake? And what is your lifting program?

sjaplo

329cal - 20-25% - NROL

AllanMisner

329 cals might be too much of a deficit to gain muscle (how much weight are you losing per week?).

The protein seems about right, but you might get better gains at 25 - 30%.

NROL is a good program, and if you’re seeing strength gains, you definitely could get some additional mass.

You can tweak these things now to see how it goes, or you can focus on the loss, get that 8 - 10 lbs down and then hit the hypertrophy lifting hard on a maintenance or slightly over. My response to the OP was that you can do both, it just isn’t optimized to one or the other. You may be close enough to the fat loss goal that you can optimize fat loss then switch to a bulking phase.

sjaplo

Appreciate it - I'm 170-72 right now and want to get it down to 165. Losing about 1/2 per week on average - of course Dec was a wash because of the holidays. My mfp protein goal is 140ish and most days I make 130. Usually miss it on the weekend - probably missing the whey shake I have at work M-F. I'm just about finished the Strength 1 portion so perhaps my weight goal and finishing the program will coincide and I can go back and do hypertrophy.

cajuntank

AllanMisner wrote: »

I’ve done quite a bit of research on the matter, applied it to my own training (successfully) and seen it work on others. We’re not talking about major deficit, but rather 200 - 300 calories per day on average. The heavy lifting increases active testosterone (especially in men) and having adequate fuel for the lifting sessions and adequate protein for the muscle repair/building and there is no reason for the body to go into a catabolic state. The fat burning is going to occur on the low intensity cardio and rest days when the slight deficit allows for moderate fat usage.

This is not an optimized model for either fat loss or muscle gain, but a compromise approach that allows for a moderate amount of each. The thing about newbie gains is that it takes a while to lose that newbieness. It could be 9 months to a year before he sees a plateau and will have to adjust his eating and/or training.

In either case, assume you’re right. The lifting will help him hold on to muscle while losing some fat (assuming a modest deficit). Beyond lifting heavy, eating good macros at a slight deficit and getting plenty of rest, is there anything you’d add or change? I believe he can accomplish both if he stays committed and disciplined in his training and fueling.

As mentioned, my statements were outside of newbie gains. So what I think you are describing is basically what Lyle describes in his Ultimate Diet 2.0 book. Though he himself states that for the general population, it is impractical. Trying to go from anabolic to catabolic states during the week thru cyclical dieting and very specific types of training, normally is not something John Q Public would want to entertain, for the very minimal effect it has.

And I agree, while he is a newbie, he will experience both for a while.

AllanMisner

I think we’re both agreeing on principle with slight degrees of success. Would you rather lose 5 lbs of fat and lose 1 lb of muscle in a month; or lose 2 1/5 lbs of fat and gain 1 lb of muscle in a month? Option A, you weight less, Option B, you have better overall body composition.

cajuntank

AllanMisner wrote: »

I think we’re both agreeing on principle with slight degrees of success. Would you rather lose 5 lbs of fat and lose 1 lb of muscle in a month; or lose 2 1/5 lbs of fat and gain 1 lb of muscle in a month? Option A, you weight less, Option B, you have better overall body composition.

Direct quote from Lyle McDonald about the use of his cyclical dieting approach with specific training method - "It requires more attention to detail than your typical diet but it also happens to produce results. The feedback I've gotten from testers has surpassed even my original hopes, consistent fat loss of 1.5 pounds per week with no muscle loss (or even gain)". I think your numbers are somewhat overselling its success. But like you said, I think we do agree with the principal, just differ on their degree of success.

Pelamblue

herrspoons wrote: »

If the OP ways 104kg and isn't training naïve, I would strongly suggest a more traditional 1kg/pw weight loss target which equates to 1000 Kcal per day, doing a basic 3x5 or 5x5 routine, and keeping protein at about 180g/pd based on a protein synthesis rate of 30g per three hours (so six or seven meals/shakes/bars/whatever).

The reason being that, assuming he's 6' plus with decent lean mass, this will get the dieting phase out the way in 8-12 weeks without undue lean mass loss. A lean bulk after that would make sense.

I just don't think a program with a minimal calorie deficit, which needs to be precise, will give the results needed within the timescales wanted.

So could the OP try this method? Yes. Should he given what we know about him? Absolutely not.

Thankyou for your replay. This is the general feeling I get. Having spoken to PTI'S that I know they seem to agree with this. I'm not going to be anal about a set routine, diet and exercise wise, because it's not always practical. I will however enjoy my training and make sure I eat the correct food where practical. I'm not trying to get on the cover of any health magazines, I just want to feel good about myself and look in the mirror and be happy with the body I've worked for. Thankyou all for your plethora of information