Interesting Article on Curls and Other Isolation Movements

Packerjohn

This article suggests someone should not even think about things like curls , tricep extensions, etc until they can meet these strength standards:


Bench Press x 10 reps with a weight equivalent to your body weight
Bent-Over Row x 10 reps with a weight equivalent to half of your Bench Press max
Pull-Ups x 10 reps with strict form
Push-Ups x 20 reps with strict form

Even at that point, arm training should take a back seat to compound movements.

From the article:
Unless you're training for the sequel to Over the Top, arm training should fall pretty low on your priority list. Most athletes should focus primarily on the big lifts—Deadlifts, Squats, Bench Press, Bent-Over Rows, Pull-Ups and Push-Ups. If you’re training these moves correctly, your arms will get bigger and stronger too.

http://www.stack.com/2015/01/28/dont-train-arms-unless-you-can-do-these-things/?icn=Right_Rail&ici=Rail_Trending_1

ForecasterJason

While I understand this reasoning, I don't know how applicable this is for everyone. For instance, I seem to be very unbalanced when it comes to strength vs endurance. I can crank out well over 20 push ups, but I'm not even close to being able to bench press my bodyweight for 10 reps. I actually think directly training my triceps may help in increasing my bench press numbers.

Cherimoose

It's well-accepted to prioritize compound exercises, but his criteria for when to start isolation exercises is arbitrary. You can include arm exercises at any time. Just don't do those cross-body curls. Those are silly.

Jruzer

I understand the idea but the criteria sound pretty arbitrary. I can do 3 of the 4 easily, but there's no way I can do 10 pull-ups.

LolBroScience

Depends on the context. You can hit arms effectively without isolation exercises. Hello weighted chins, dips, and various other variations.

Packerjohn

Cherimoose wrote: »

It's well-accepted to prioritize compound exercises, but his criteria for when to start isolation exercises is arbitrary. You can include arm exercises at any time. Just don't do those cross-body curls. Those are silly.

It is a pretty arbitrary set of standards. I think the take-away is trainees should be concentrating on the compound lifts and not doing a bunch of isolation movements until they have built some level of basic strength. Sort of like the desserts at the top of the old food pyramid, you can have some occasionally, but most of your nutrition should come from the base.

Packerjohn

ForecasterJason wrote: »

While I understand this reasoning, I don't know how applicable this is for everyone. For instance, I seem to be very unbalanced when it comes to strength vs endurance. I can crank out well over 20 push ups, but I'm not even close to being able to bench press my bodyweight for 10 reps. I actually think directly training my triceps may help in increasing my bench press numbers.

If you look at some information on the bench press they will talk about some assistance exercises for the triceps. These exercises tend to be things like board presses, close grip pressing movements, etc as opposed to the tricep kickback, etc you see at most gyms.

http://www.andyboltonstrength.org/tag/assistance-exercises/

Sam_I_Am77

The standards are fairly arbitrary for sure. This article if I were to figure out the context to it, is really targeted towards healthy men that are ready to take-on compound lifts. I'm going to say the above standards are a bit much for you average woman and the 20-pushups are not hard enough for most men, 20-dips would be a challenge for the average man.

Not to mention some people in general need to develop things like hammies and glutes separately before they can correctly execute something like a squat. What good is a squat if your muscling through it with only your quads, not very good that's for sure. He makes a lot of good points in the article and compound lifts are definitely your best bang for your buck but I think he's being too rigid in his presentation.

usmcmp

For many people (especially women) we have to strengthen our triceps to increase our bench to body weight. Women use less chest and more back/triceps when doing bench press than men. Often women can barbell row more than they can bench (I can row significantly more than my bench). Also, bicep strength can be a limiting factor for pull ups.

Sadly the article generalizes far too much.

Sam_I_Am77

usmcmp wrote: »

For many people (especially women) we have to strengthen our triceps to increase our bench to body weight. Women use less chest and more back/triceps when doing bench press than men. Often women can barbell row more than they can bench (I can row significantly more than my bench). Also, bicep strength can be a limiting factor for pull ups.

Sadly the article generalizes far too much.

Yeah, I was shocked when I looked at the author's credentials. Bench, Squat, Row can work for a lot of people but definitely not everybody. I think certain indicators such as squatting x% of your bodyweight is a good indicator of experience and level of strength but the indicators in this article are far too general. Why bench body-weight x 10, what not 12, why not 1.25x BW for 10 reps? It's like the NFL Bench-Test, it doesn't prove all that much.

usmcmp

Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »

usmcmp wrote: »

For many people (especially women) we have to strengthen our triceps to increase our bench to body weight. Women use less chest and more back/triceps when doing bench press than men. Often women can barbell row more than they can bench (I can row significantly more than my bench). Also, bicep strength can be a limiting factor for pull ups.

Sadly the article generalizes far too much.

Yeah, I was shocked when I looked at the author's credentials. Bench, Squat, Row can work for a lot of people but definitely not everybody. I think certain indicators such as squatting x% of your bodyweight is a good indicator of experience and level of strength but the indicators in this article are far too general. Why bench body-weight x 10, what not 12, why not 1.25x BW for 10 reps? It's like the NFL Bench-Test, it doesn't prove all that much.

It's like when people ask what's a good weight for a beginner. Whatever you can do without hurting yourself? My deadlift PR at the end of two years lifting is more than some women can do after 10. My bench is sad. Joint mechanics, muscle origin and insertion, how much you typically use the movement anyway.

Cherimoose

Packerjohn wrote: »

I think the take-away is trainees should be concentrating on the compound lifts and not doing a bunch of isolation movements until they have built some level of basic strength.

Again, isolation exercises can be added at any time - there is no need to wait until a certain level of strength is met. With a sport like tennis, the cable pec fly (an isolation movement) is more valuable than the bench press, since it's more similar to the sport.

gothchiq

These standards might (?) be appropriate for men, but for women I don't think it's realistic. I am totally going to keep using my free weights in addition to the machines; it's gotten me good results (without injuries) so far.

DawnEmbers

Hmm... I'd have to bench 175. Pfft. Since I failed at 90, I'm not even close. Though my row is currently heavier than my bench. Guess it's good that I like the compound lifts.

Hornsby

Def not applicable for women I wouldn't think. I can see the reasoning for men though.

stealthq

Well, the isolation exercises I do are designed to help me get to those standards and are done after the compound lifts.

I mean, if I had to wait until I could do even one BW bench press, I'd not do an isolation exercise for years at the pathetic rate I'm improving.

On the other hand, I've already blasted past the requirement for bent-over rows and push ups. The pull up requirement I could see achieving with a couple of months of concentrated effort. Last time I tested, I could manage 3 with strict form.

Sam_I_Am77

I think the bottom-line takeaway here is to focus on what's most important in obtaining your goals. The article was just not thought-out as well as it should've been.

Packerjohn

Cherimoose wrote: »

Packerjohn wrote: »

I think the take-away is trainees should be concentrating on the compound lifts and not doing a bunch of isolation movements until they have built some level of basic strength.

Again, isolation exercises can be added at any time - there is no need to wait until a certain level of strength is met. With a sport like tennis, the cable pec fly (an isolation movement) is more valuable than the bench press, since it's more similar to the sport.

Of course isolation movements can be added at any time. In many cases though, beginners (and many other trainees) spend too much time on the isolation exercises instead of compound exercises where you get more bang for your buck. What's going to have more benefit, 5 sets of heavy deadlifts or 5 sets of bicep curls?