Post-Workout Carbs...yes, they're basically pointless! (Insulin Response Debunked)
beastcompany
Posts: 230 Member
Not that this isn't something we're (most of us) well aware of at this point, but I figured a little extra backing to link in threads and assist new members in understanding the facts of the matter couldn't hurt.
Basically...
Link ; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25646407
Pretty much, if you still think you have to down some dextrose after training to spike insulin...you're doing it wrong.
Basically...
Link ; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25646407
Pretty much, if you still think you have to down some dextrose after training to spike insulin...you're doing it wrong.
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Replies
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What about the idea of a carb refeed after depleting glycogen to to reset leptin levels. Not for muscle gains but for fat loss?
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My snicker is not useless!!0
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princessrisariri wrote: »What about the idea of a carb refeed after depleting glycogen to to reset leptin levels. Not for muscle gains but for fat loss?
Depends on the overall context.
If an individual has been very low carb (or relatively) for an extend period of time during a cutting phase, than a refeed could prove beneficial.
Remember, this study/post is strictly in regards to the myth that consuming post-workout carbohydrates is beneficial for MPS or body composition.
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My snicker is not useless!!
Of course not, it's delicious!
Just giving some reference for new members to understand they don't need to be slamming their post-workout protein shake loaded with dextrose to spike MPS and think it'll give them better results.
Although, this has been understood for a while now, it's nice to have paper backing from a highly accredited individual in the field.
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I had Fruit Loops post-workout this week. You will never tell me to put those carbs down! LOL0
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No, good info, man. I just look forward to my wee treats. This new info is a tad disappointing actually, as we can't really shut the low GI folks down with the 'insulin is anabolic' argument as much.0
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Almost every dealing with nutrient/supplement timing is worthless. The only time it's useful is if you are an elite athlete at the pinnacle of your fitness level, in which case it might give you a minor edge.0
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No, good info, man. I just look forward to my wee treats. This new info is a tad disappointing actually, as we can't really shut the low GI folks down with the 'insulin is anabolic' argument as much.
True, but there are plenty of valid arguements to discredit the "Low GI" Debate, the primary being that dose/context of the OVERALL meal + prior meals has to be taken into consideration when debating the digestion rate of nutrients.
The fact that an individual food in the meal is LOW GI is really irrelevant when we take into consideration the overall nutrient composition of the meal + prior meals.0 -
Additionally...
Just want to ensure that for those who aren't actually taking the time to read the abstract, they're informed of this fact.
Carbohydrates PWO may not be effective for increasing MPS/body composition..
HOWEVER, it is shown that carbohydrates are protein/muscle sparing and if taken prior to, or intra- training they could be somewhat beneficial to prevention of muscle breakdown.
Although, to what extent is largely debatable and any pratically to intentially altering your pre-training nutrition to include a solid carbohydrate dose is not really shown, so take it with a grain of salt.0 -
Fat loss happens with deficit. And one burns more fat at rest (sleeping/non physical activity) than at any other time.princessrisariri wrote: »What about the idea of a carb refeed after depleting glycogen to to reset leptin levels. Not for muscle gains but for fat loss?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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I have been instructed by my trainer to eat a high protein snack after my workout to halp "mend" my muscles after a hard workout. My workouts are just for weight loss and toning, not building muscle, so I don't really concern myself with the science behind this stuff. It werkz 4 me.
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It's needed for repair though, and if you're a multi sport athlete with a training session later on the day or the next day, those carbs need to get to work as soon as possible.
Too tired to look up all the long words. How many athletes were involved in the study. Does Brad have any vested interests in this information?0 -
flamingblades wrote: »I have been instructed by my trainer to eat a high protein snack after my workout to halp "mend" my muscles after a hard workout. My workouts are just for weight loss and toning, not building muscle, so I don't really concern myself with the science behind this stuff. It werkz 4 me.
Sadly, most "certified" trainers are taught VIA textbooks that still tote outdated dietary and training advice...and then they pass on this advice to clients who don't know better than to do otherwise because the individual advising them holds "credentials".
Although, when it comes down to it, personal preference and finding what works best for your body should be the ultimate factor in deciding how to proceed with your dietary lifestyle.0 -
Agreed, and I'm sure he would too in regards to high performance athletes and even long duration training periods where glycogen depletion would be a concern.Springfield1970 wrote: »It's needed for repair though, and if you're a multi sport athlete with a training session later on the day or the next day, those carbs need to get to work as soon as possible.
Too tired to look up all the long words. How many athletes were involved in the study. Does Brad have any vested interests in this information?
This is simply an abstract, and I have no idea how to or interest in evaluating the full context study.
However, Brad has shown time and again (with assistance from Alan in a variety of work), that he has no bias in regards to training/nutritional studies and simply works to provide the best evidence possible.
The majority of his studies are in regards to the ever day individual/trainee and he provides evidence/advice accordingly.
As far as I can see, this study was conducted accordingly and conclusions based on what would be optimal for the average gym goer.
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The best thing I ever did was see the eating diaries of Olympic athletes. It confirmed some of my ideas and knowledge. It also made me realise how superstitious and faddy we can be.
When I was on the UD2 which was by far the craziest diet I've ever been on, my power workout days were like being on crack, and the high carb loading after these workouts ( the latter half of the week) brought some very quick gains and fast repair compared to my cutting and bulking methods. I've never lifted heavier since. Half the week was spent glycogen depleting on low calorie, the other half, high carb high calorie insulin mania driven power workouts. I was recovering competely on 4 total body workouts a week. Ug.
Of course it's anecdotal, but sometimes these experiences are very hard to forget.0 -
Springfield1970 wrote: »The best thing I ever did was see the eating diaries of Olympic athletes. It confirmed some of my ideas and knowledge.
Of course, we have to take into consideration the VAST difference between top level athletes performing at that kind of intensity, versus the average trainee.
The dietary requirements are going to be highly different, and when you reach such a level of success/experience in your given sport, things such as nutrient timing, etc. may become much more impactful.
Again though, this is more just geared towards the every day gym goer, or individual we would see frequent the forum seeking advice.
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The reality is that muscles worked out don't mend till the next day, so essentially it's MORE important for nutrition the day after than the day of.flamingblades wrote: »I have been instructed by my trainer to eat a high protein snack after my workout to halp "mend" my muscles after a hard workout. My workouts are just for weight loss and toning, not building muscle, so I don't really concern myself with the science behind this stuff. It werkz 4 me.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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The reality is that muscles worked out don't mend till the next day, so essentially it's MORE important for nutrition the day after than the day of.flamingblades wrote: »I have been instructed by my trainer to eat a high protein snack after my workout to halp "mend" my muscles after a hard workout. My workouts are just for weight loss and toning, not building muscle, so I don't really concern myself with the science behind this stuff. It werkz 4 me.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Interesting, but surely it takes a day to digest all the micros and macros ready to repair the next day. Why delay that?
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It helps to understand application by reading the whole text and not JUST the abstract. This study is only applicable to those who are fed via mixed meal. For those who are fasted, this study does not apply.
From the text itself,
“From the presented data in the current systematic review, we conclude that 1) exogenous insulin and amino acid administration concurrent hyperaminoacidemia and hyperinsulinemia effectively increase muscle protein synthesis, however this effect is attributed to the hyperaminoacidemia
It should be noted that a state of concurrent hyperinsulinemia and hyperaminoacidemia reflects the physiological conditions following ingestion of a mixed meal. Three studies investigated whether exogenous insulin administration can further augment muscle protein synthesis during hyperaminoacidemic conditions, and all of them failed to detect an incremental effect.”
Furthermore, this study also attributes the MPS increase in the study to hyperaminoacidemia (excessive amino acid pool) uptake. So basically if you don’t already have a high nitrogen balance, you would have to either consume whey, essential amino acids, or BCAA and have them rapidly infused into your system (like when insulin is spiked) and then there IS an increase in MPS.
Also there is the caveat the authors noted of using exogenous insulin. The use of dextrose is vastly different than injecting pure insulin.
Interesting study for sure, but for those of us who train fasted, it isn’t applicable.
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Yeah I think I'm just going to keep slamming 50 grams of Gaspari Glycofuse with my whey shake and continue chasing that with 1 cup of sticky white rice with 1 tbl spoon of honey after my weight training workouts. 100+ grams of carbs post workout...works for me.
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Common sense and my rumbling tummy tells me to feast after a big workout, so I'm going to keep loading up before and after workouts. It's very much working for me! My workouts are out of this world, no bonking for me, and I'm ready for the next day's workout way earlier than if I'd not eaten after.0
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beastcompany wrote: »Not that this isn't something we're (most of us) well aware of at this point, but I figured a little extra backing to link in threads and assist new members in understanding the facts of the matter couldn't hurt.
Basically...
Link ; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25646407
Pretty much, if you still think you have to down some dextrose after training to spike insulin...you're doing it wrong.
Alright, so I don't want to sound stupid, but this is if you inject insulin...while the injectable insulin is the same hormone produced in the body, I personally think that causing an insulin spike by consuming glucose (post-workout) is different then injecting yourself with insulin and reason being is the spike is made by us eating sugar, a little bit different process. When we eat sugar our pancreas secretes insulin, that PROCESS creates an increase in IGF, I thought it did anyway, which helps promote muscle growth. Still not exactly sure if that in itself helps by doing immediately after a work out, but always thought that. I also think that when you work out you're utilizing glucose in your body so you want to restore that with quick acting carbohydrates, hence the whole dextrose idea. Hope I make some sense if not sorry haha. And if I'm wrong or way off please tell me in a nice way. haha.0
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