Protein Drink after Workout

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ldeoprecor

dieselbyte wrote: »

ldeoprecor wrote: »

dieselbyte wrote: »

ldeoprecor wrote: »

There are tons of studies to indicate the benefits of post workout protein supplements. Haynes Cribb posted a study in 2006 "Effects of supplement timing and resistance exercise on skeletal muscle hypertrophy". The study lasted 22 weeks and followed two groups. One group took their protein in the morning and evening, and the other took the exact same amount post and pre workout. Those who took protein blends post work out saw increased LBM and decreased body fat. Both groups saw increased gains, but the post workout group demonstrated significantly greater gains.

There are numerous studies (sourced below) that show the effects that milk can have a post workout drink in terms of increasing LBM, strength, , muscle hypertrophy and decreases in body fat.

Wlkinson S, Tarnopolsky M- Consumption of fluid skim milk promotes greater muscle protein accretion after resistance exercise than does consumption of a isonitrogenous and isoenergectic soy-protein beverage. Am J Clin Nutr 2007

Rankin J, Goldman L- Effect of post exercise supplement consumption on adaptations to resistance training. AM J Clin Nutr- 2007

Josse A, Tang J- Body composition and strength changes in women with milk and resistance exercise. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2010

There are definite benefits to what your trainer is talking about. That's not to say that you take everything that they say as the truth, but what possible reason could they have for misleading a client?

And for those that bash the trainer (or trainers in general) as not knowing anything about nutrition....really? You're making this claim on MFP forums? With what credentials? And with what backing? I'll take a controlled study over what people claim to "know" on this forum any day.

What? Do you honestly believe that trainers are all knowing? Misleading a client because you don't know or understand the first thing about nutrition is still misleading, whether you proactively do it or not. Are all trainers idiots? No. But I've seen numerous friends in competition, mostly women, receive "meal plans" from trainers and coaches - all protein, little to no fat and no carbs - a recipe for disaster. Just because they call themselves a trainer and paid money for an online "certificate course", doesn't mean they know the first thing about nutrition.

And anyone can post research articles to prove or deny a claim. Perhaps you should read "Nutrient Timing Revisited" - Aragon and Schoenfeld. (Nice strawman argument, right?) The fact is it is widely agreed that nutrient timing, other than for athletic performance, has nothing to do with weight loss/gain, and little to do with muscle gain/loss. MPS isn't confined to an hour window. With that said, if you train fasted, it also probably isn't ideal to go 8-10 hours without a meal. But there is no need or reason to consume protein within an hour of training. And to claim significantly greater gains by meal timing is erroneous.

I find it curious that you would admit to making that exact fallacy. I haven't misrepresented anyone's side. But, I don't recall EVER saying that if you don't drink x within y minutes then you won't see anything. But, you claim that I do and then blow away that straw man argument. And, I clearly stated that not all trainers are all knowing. But those that claim that one should listen to the "wisdom" of an online forum have just as much (and usually less) credibility than a lot of trainers....

At best, your sourced article simply says "We don't know enough to say one way or the other". Which is hardly a conclusion at all. In fact, most of their concerns are about the fact that most of the studies included both pre and post workout supplementation, which doesn't aid credence to the "anabolic window" theory. That being said, even in that article, those studies that either compare pre and post to morn and evening show that there are benefits to those who take the supplements within a closer time frame.

You are the one that has assigned ridiculous time frames to this. I mean, if you consume your protein at 61 minutes instead of 60 minutes then you don't get the same affect.....yeah....sure. This isn't about nitpicking times.

What I, the trainer, and studies suggest is that there is reason to believe that taking protein supplements as a post workout can have benefits. Other people here are claiming that it does nothing (and there isn't much out there to support that claim).

But, to answer the OP's question, taking a protein supplement can aid in increased LBM and decreased body fat. We can argue till we are blue in the face about the timing, but the bottom line is that there is credence to the idea that a protein supplement when combined with resistance work can aid in body fat reduction.

You clearly don't understand my argument, nor did you read the part where OP stated her trainer said to have a protein shake within an hour. I wasn't the one who assigned a ridiculous time frame to anything, nor did I "nitpick" times. The fact that you call out other's for questioning the trainers advice is the issue. How do you know what credentials someone has. And not having credentials automatically disqualifies someone and their arguments? It seems you are suggesting that posting on the MFP forum somehow discredits or lessens someone's knowledge. Than what does that mean for you and your posts? And your last line? Protein and resistance training alone do not aid in body fat reduction. One needs to be in a caloric deficit first and foremost, and that's the bottom line.

To clarify for you. The point I'm making is the argument of optimal vs needed (and optimal can be argued from here to eternity, as you know). Pre, post and intra workout feedings all have to be taken into account. Example - I changed my schedule and now train fasted at 5am (my last meal is right before bed, usually around 9pm). I don't eat a normal "meal" with protein until around 12pm the next day. Is it "optimal" for me to go 15 hours without consuming protein? Maybe not. Will I still build muscle, if my protein needs are met throughout the days, weeks and months, and I'm in a caloric surplus? Yes. So I'd argue that for me a protein shake after my workout is the more optimal solution, due to my time constraints at work and other factors, factors including the attempt to put on as much muscle as possible given my training, genetics, caloric surplus etc.

When it comes to the OP, her question was about protein after training for the sole purpose of losing weight. That is her goal. Her trainer stated she should have a shake within an hour. The answer to her question is no. Protein alone after training will not help her lose weight. It isn't a magical macronutrient. CICO first and foremost.

I did not suggest that posting on MFP discredits you. Saying "Trainers don't know what they are talking about. You don't need protein as a post workout supplement," is about as credible (and likely less so) than taking a trainer's word at face value. The difference here is that I've sourced and backed up my claims with studies that support it. If you want to argue that those sources are wrong, by all means, go for it. But making a blanket claim that trainers don't know what they are talking about and making unsubstantiated claims is ridiculous.

Sigh...once again you are building arguments that don't exist. No one has challenged CICO. To quote the OP "She told me she wanted me to drink a protein drink ( with at least 25 grams of protein) within an hour after working out.....So my question is will this actually help me lose weight?"

The answer would be that studies have shown that it can. Weight loss and the human body are rather complex. And while "It's all just CICO" is a nice sound bite, there's more too it than just that. Hence, her question.....

Nevertheless, I'm not challenging the concept. Why you insist on lunging for the jugular is beyond me. She didn't ask "How do I lose weight". She asked if the trainers was telling the truth.

ninerbuff

angelexperiment wrote: »

The larger breakfast may be to have up to 20 g protein before workout. If you aretraining hard or doing hard cardio. Then post workout protein drink is to help with muscle recovery and while the oxygen is still in the muscle this gets the protein in the muscle fast and will help with building muscle and will help your muscles repair and not be sore. This is how it was explained to me anyway. There is bionic edge which is low cal 110 and low carb 3 g and taste awesome! And has no artificial fillers or chemicals added. And uses stevia as sweetener and 25 g protein. And 36 servings.

You were informed incorrectly then. While there is an "optimal" window after a workout for a post workout shake, the actual effectiveness of it is basically immeasurable to people who are of the general population. Elite athletes and some body builders on gear MAY get a better response, but what you're hearing is information being handed down from many fitness trainers who listened to other fitness trainers who didn't really research the study enough.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

maxit

I posted a link to what seems to me to be a fairly comprehensive literature review published in 2013 for those of you that want to delve into the question of benefits of pre- and post-workout nutrients.. It says nothing about weight loss. It looks at various studies that examine the anabolic effect of nutrient timing (carbohydrates and protein, specifically), including the interaction of protein and carb, on subjects who exercised in fasted and unfasted states, in untrained and trained subjects, and in elderly vs. non-elderly subjects, and has an excellent discussion (again, in my view) of the limitations of the research to date.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3577439/

dieselbyte

ldeoprecor wrote: »

dieselbyte wrote: »

ldeoprecor wrote: »

dieselbyte wrote: »

ldeoprecor wrote: »

There are tons of studies to indicate the benefits of post workout protein supplements. Haynes Cribb posted a study in 2006 "Effects of supplement timing and resistance exercise on skeletal muscle hypertrophy". The study lasted 22 weeks and followed two groups. One group took their protein in the morning and evening, and the other took the exact same amount post and pre workout. Those who took protein blends post work out saw increased LBM and decreased body fat. Both groups saw increased gains, but the post workout group demonstrated significantly greater gains.

There are numerous studies (sourced below) that show the effects that milk can have a post workout drink in terms of increasing LBM, strength, , muscle hypertrophy and decreases in body fat.

Wlkinson S, Tarnopolsky M- Consumption of fluid skim milk promotes greater muscle protein accretion after resistance exercise than does consumption of a isonitrogenous and isoenergectic soy-protein beverage. Am J Clin Nutr 2007

Rankin J, Goldman L- Effect of post exercise supplement consumption on adaptations to resistance training. AM J Clin Nutr- 2007

Josse A, Tang J- Body composition and strength changes in women with milk and resistance exercise. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2010

There are definite benefits to what your trainer is talking about. That's not to say that you take everything that they say as the truth, but what possible reason could they have for misleading a client?

And for those that bash the trainer (or trainers in general) as not knowing anything about nutrition....really? You're making this claim on MFP forums? With what credentials? And with what backing? I'll take a controlled study over what people claim to "know" on this forum any day.

What? Do you honestly believe that trainers are all knowing? Misleading a client because you don't know or understand the first thing about nutrition is still misleading, whether you proactively do it or not. Are all trainers idiots? No. But I've seen numerous friends in competition, mostly women, receive "meal plans" from trainers and coaches - all protein, little to no fat and no carbs - a recipe for disaster. Just because they call themselves a trainer and paid money for an online "certificate course", doesn't mean they know the first thing about nutrition.

And anyone can post research articles to prove or deny a claim. Perhaps you should read "Nutrient Timing Revisited" - Aragon and Schoenfeld. (Nice strawman argument, right?) The fact is it is widely agreed that nutrient timing, other than for athletic performance, has nothing to do with weight loss/gain, and little to do with muscle gain/loss. MPS isn't confined to an hour window. With that said, if you train fasted, it also probably isn't ideal to go 8-10 hours without a meal. But there is no need or reason to consume protein within an hour of training. And to claim significantly greater gains by meal timing is erroneous.

I find it curious that you would admit to making that exact fallacy. I haven't misrepresented anyone's side. But, I don't recall EVER saying that if you don't drink x within y minutes then you won't see anything. But, you claim that I do and then blow away that straw man argument. And, I clearly stated that not all trainers are all knowing. But those that claim that one should listen to the "wisdom" of an online forum have just as much (and usually less) credibility than a lot of trainers....

At best, your sourced article simply says "We don't know enough to say one way or the other". Which is hardly a conclusion at all. In fact, most of their concerns are about the fact that most of the studies included both pre and post workout supplementation, which doesn't aid credence to the "anabolic window" theory. That being said, even in that article, those studies that either compare pre and post to morn and evening show that there are benefits to those who take the supplements within a closer time frame.

You are the one that has assigned ridiculous time frames to this. I mean, if you consume your protein at 61 minutes instead of 60 minutes then you don't get the same affect.....yeah....sure. This isn't about nitpicking times.

What I, the trainer, and studies suggest is that there is reason to believe that taking protein supplements as a post workout can have benefits. Other people here are claiming that it does nothing (and there isn't much out there to support that claim).

But, to answer the OP's question, taking a protein supplement can aid in increased LBM and decreased body fat. We can argue till we are blue in the face about the timing, but the bottom line is that there is credence to the idea that a protein supplement when combined with resistance work can aid in body fat reduction.

You clearly don't understand my argument, nor did you read the part where OP stated her trainer said to have a protein shake within an hour. I wasn't the one who assigned a ridiculous time frame to anything, nor did I "nitpick" times. The fact that you call out other's for questioning the trainers advice is the issue. How do you know what credentials someone has. And not having credentials automatically disqualifies someone and their arguments? It seems you are suggesting that posting on the MFP forum somehow discredits or lessens someone's knowledge. Than what does that mean for you and your posts? And your last line? Protein and resistance training alone do not aid in body fat reduction. One needs to be in a caloric deficit first and foremost, and that's the bottom line.

To clarify for you. The point I'm making is the argument of optimal vs needed (and optimal can be argued from here to eternity, as you know). Pre, post and intra workout feedings all have to be taken into account. Example - I changed my schedule and now train fasted at 5am (my last meal is right before bed, usually around 9pm). I don't eat a normal "meal" with protein until around 12pm the next day. Is it "optimal" for me to go 15 hours without consuming protein? Maybe not. Will I still build muscle, if my protein needs are met throughout the days, weeks and months, and I'm in a caloric surplus? Yes. So I'd argue that for me a protein shake after my workout is the more optimal solution, due to my time constraints at work and other factors, factors including the attempt to put on as much muscle as possible given my training, genetics, caloric surplus etc.

When it comes to the OP, her question was about protein after training for the sole purpose of losing weight. That is her goal. Her trainer stated she should have a shake within an hour. The answer to her question is no. Protein alone after training will not help her lose weight. It isn't a magical macronutrient. CICO first and foremost.

I did not suggest that posting on MFP discredits you. Saying "Trainers don't know what they are talking about. You don't need protein as a post workout supplement," is about as credible (and likely less so) than taking a trainer's word at face value. The difference here is that I've sourced and backed up my claims with studies that support it. If you want to argue that those sources are wrong, by all means, go for it. But making a blanket claim that trainers don't know what they are talking about and making unsubstantiated claims is ridiculous.

Sigh...once again you are building arguments that don't exist. No one has challenged CICO. To quote the OP "She told me she wanted me to drink a protein drink ( with at least 25 grams of protein) within an hour after working out.....So my question is will this actually help me lose weight?"

The answer would be that studies have shown that it can. Weight loss and the human body are rather complex. And while "It's all just CICO" is a nice sound bite, there's more too it than just that. Hence, her question.....

Nevertheless, I'm not challenging the concept. Why you insist on lunging for the jugular is beyond me. She didn't ask "How do I lose weight". She asked if the trainers was telling the truth.

I'm done. Don't want to hijack the OP's thread, and clearly you are constructing statements to fit your argument. The OP did not ask if the trainer was "telling the truth". She asked if a protein shake after her workout would aid in weight loss - which it won't.

OP - apologize for hijacking your thread. Ninerbuff has given some great info, especially his last post.

ninerbuff

ldeoprecor wrote: »

There are tons of studies to indicate the benefits of post workout protein supplements. Haynes Cribb posted a study in 2006 "Effects of supplement timing and resistance exercise on skeletal muscle hypertrophy". The study lasted 22 weeks and followed two groups. One group took their protein in the morning and evening, and the other took the exact same amount post and pre workout. Those who took protein blends post work out saw increased LBM and decreased body fat. Both groups saw increased gains, but the post workout group demonstrated significantly greater gains.

There are numerous studies (sourced below) that show the effects that milk can have a post workout drink in terms of increasing LBM, strength, , muscle hypertrophy and decreases in body fat.

Wlkinson S, Tarnopolsky M- Consumption of fluid skim milk promotes greater muscle protein accretion after resistance exercise than does consumption of a isonitrogenous and isoenergectic soy-protein beverage. Am J Clin Nutr 2007

Skim milk versus soy. Basically study states that milk based products are better than soy for protein accretion. Any protein intake will help to increase hypertrophy if enough is taken and progressive overload resistance program is applied.

Rankin J, Goldman L- Effect of post exercise supplement consumption on adaptations to resistance training. AM J Clin Nutr- 2007

From the study:
RESULTS
Anthropometrics
There were no statistical differences in physical character-
istics among groups for any of the listed variables prior to the
treatment period (Table 2).

Muscular Strength
Muscular strength was not significantly different for any of
the seven exercises between groups prior to training (Table 4).

Body Composition
There were no significant differences between groups at
baseline for body composition (Table 2).

Hormones
Serum hormone concentrations were not significantly dif-
ferent between treatments before the start of training (Table 5).

Effect of Type of Beverage Consumed post Exercise
Type of beverage consumed after each resistance training
bout did not have a significant effect on body composition, strength, hormones or REE in young men undergoing a rigorous resistance training program for 10 weeks.

CONCLUSION
A 10 week resistance training program led to significant
muscle hypertrophy and strength gains, but not an increase in
REE.

This study was done on males 18-25 who were UNTRAINED prior. Definitely sure that results would be much different on males who've trained 90 days or more consistently.

Josse A, Tang J- Body composition and strength changes in women with milk and resistance exercise. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2010

From study:

CONCLUSIONS:

Heavy, whole-body resistance exercise with the consumption of milk versus carbohydrate in the early postexercise period resulted in greater muscle mass accretion, strength gains, fat mass loss, and a possible reduction in bone turnover in women after 12 wk. Our results, similar to those in men, highlight that milk is an effective drink to support favorable body composition changes in women with resistance training.

But this study is based on milk vs carbs for muscle mass, accretion, strength gains, etc. I don't know of any scientific organization that would say muscle mass increase would happen without PROTEIN. Carbs don't build muscle mass. I promise.

There are definite benefits to what your trainer is talking about. That's not to say that you take everything that they say as the truth, but what possible reason could they have for misleading a client?

The misleading happens because of lack of actual knowledge. Let's face it, most PT's can't recite 10 elements from the Periodic table of elements by it's acronym, much let's explain how chemically Kreb's cycle works. Many go by what peers tell them or what they read in a fitness magazine without actually researching it.

And for those that bash the trainer (or trainers in general) as not knowing anything about nutrition....really? You're making this claim on MFP forums? With what credentials? And with what backing? I'll take a controlled study over what people claim to "know" on this forum any day.

I can attest (since I've worked with many many trainers over the years), that many trainers are inadequately informed when it comes to nutrition. Most know the "cookie cutter" versions. There are some who are well informed, but you're talking about 1 out of about every 15-20.
And yes PEER REVIEWED STUDIES should be the go to for information rather than just relying on word from someone who just trains people at the gym. I tell my clients all the time to not just believe me, but get what I say verified and ask any questions I may not have covered.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

ninerbuff

maxit wrote: »

I posted a link to what seems to me to be a fairly comprehensive literature review published in 2013 for those of you that want to delve into the question of benefits of pre- and post-workout nutrients.. It says nothing about weight loss. It looks at various studies that examine the anabolic effect of nutrient timing (carbohydrates and protein, specifically), including the interaction of protein and carb, on subjects who exercised in fasted and unfasted states, in untrained and trained subjects, and in elderly vs. non-elderly subjects, and has an excellent discussion (again, in my view) of the limitations of the research to date.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3577439/

This is study that should be read and looked at...................with objectivity.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

debsweetcakes

PROTEIN BUILDS MUSCLE and muscle burns FAT! Do what your trainer is telling you. Eating more protein when you are craving things etc also help majorly!

Unknown

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ninerbuff

debsweetcakes wrote: »

PROTEIN BUILDS MUSCLE and muscle burns FAT! Do what your trainer is telling you. Eating more protein when you are craving things etc also help majorly!

Protein builds muscle, but not likely if you're in deficit. Lots of trainers are just echoing broscience that they hear from peers and magazines.
Sometimes you just have to believe real research.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition