Lat pulldown vs. machine assisted pull up

fragmentalis

Hi all,

Something is really bugging me... My biggest goal is to be able to do pull ups. So I looked for suitable machines in the gym and trained on them.
But there seems to be some gliutch in my logic. I miss on somerthing.

My actual weight 70 kg
On the lat pull down machine ( pulling down in front if my chest) i manage 55-60 kg for a few reps, so not so far off from my bodyweight. And I see progress (higher weights / more reps).

But: for the machine assisted pull downs I set the machine to 40kg (=only really pulling 30 kg, given my bodyweight) and manage about the same reps as for the lat pull downs..

Why oh why? I dfon't get why there is such a big dfifference... Help....

runningjen74

First off I'm a beginner, but you have me thinking about my own progress. This is something I read this week.

http://www.charlespoliquin.com/ArticlesMultimedia/Articles/Article/432/Rising_to_Pull-Up_Success.aspx

I'll be watching to see if anyone else has any input. Hope it helps a bit

Hexahedra

Are you using the same grip at the same spacing on both machines? Due to the way it works, the amount of assistance provided by an assisted pull-up machine is not the same as the total weight of the plates it uses, there's typically a conversion chart painted on it somewhere.

aelunyu

The absolute best way to learn how to do a pullup is to do a jump-hang. Try to do a pullup (unassisted) and then for a little bit of momentum, jump a little. Get your chin above the bar, and hang there as long as you can, slowly coming back down. Jump back up there, and repeat. Over time, rely less on the jumping and more on the pulling. Also come down slow.

craigmandu

Lat pulldowns are not nearly as difficult as pullups, assisted or not. It is much different to "utilize" you own bodyweight as a starter, regardless if you realize it or not, to pull the weight down a pre-determined path than it is to pull oneself up with simply some bottom upward tension added. In addition, your core comes into play in "helping" pull down the weight, whereas you don't "gain" the same benefit when you are pulling up your own body weight. (even though you exercise your core more on the pullup, and throughout both the up and down parts of the exercise)...lat pulldown is more like a bench machine vs. bench press when related to a pullup, the stability muscles aren't used much in the pulldowns, where they must be engaged in the pullup.

If the lat machine also has a bar that you put your legs under, you will instinctively use more of your lower body muscles to assist the pulldown....getting leverage you wouldn't otherwise have in a standard pullup/assisted pullup.

mkakids

I've read that inverted rows are the best way to build pull up strength because they use your core as well .

Docmahi

as someone stated earlier if you want to do pull ups your best option is to do negatives, just jumping and resisting the pull back down/and band work if you have access to them.

the assisted pullup machine forced you to be straight up and down almost where as my body naturally is at an angle when I do pullups. When i started lifting I was 260 lbs, so pullups werent an option for me - I was able to do them when I hit 200 - and now I can do sets of 8 or so - however for me the jump hang was the most effective tool for learning, even when I was able to lat pull down 230 on a plate loaded pull down machine (when I weighed around 210) I struggled with unassisted pullups

DavPul

I don't think I've ever seen a person build the strength to do a pull up by doing lat pull downs. They seem like the same exercise but they aren't. Continue to do them, but practice pull ups in order to do pull ups. Inverted rows, arm hangs, partials, assisted, negatives and the like

HMVOL7409

I learned and conquered pull-ups by actually attempting them and doing negatives. I hardly do/did lat pull downs, maybe once every 3-4 weeks in my rotation.

BigGuy47

I agree that doing negatives will help your progress. Chin ups (hands facing towards you) can also help with progression. If you can do chin ups, work on adding reps to your chin ups. Once you can do about 5 or 6 chin ups in a row try doing a pull up.

Vonwarr

I know a fair number of people who use the assisted pull-up machine who have never been able to make the jump do doing full pull ups.

As a lot of other posters are saying too, negatives are a great way to build up to it.

HelloDan

The problem with the assisted pull-up machine (and lat pull downs) is that the assistance stabilises you, as well as providing upwards assistance, so it doesn't translate well into an unassisted pull up.

The suggestion of negatives is good, but I would also recommend making your own "assistance machine" by using normal pull up bars, and putting a band round them, that way you get the assistance from the bands, but you're not overly stabilised from outside.

BonaFideUK

Learn to do pull-ups by first doing the negative portion of the pull-up (lowering yourself). After you can do that about 10 times in a slow and controlled manner try to do the other part of the pull-up. Then do complete pull-ups to failure and continue to do the negative portion to 10+. Soon you will be able to do 10 proper pull-ups in no time.

xbar16

I recently became obsessed with doing pull ups. I went from not being able to do any to any to 5. All the way down to elbow lock out. I did this by using the assist machine. Did not focus on the weight, just what felt difficult enough to do 3 sets of 8-10 reps to exhaustion. After a few weeks of this, I tried to do an unassisted one and did 3. I now do unassisted sets of 3 to 5 reps x 4 sets. I have a long way to go but the assist machine rocks. Forget the lat pull down.

fragmentalis

Thank you so so much for all the input: I will give the negative ones a try as I'm using the assisted pull up machine / lat pulldowns for over a year and (apart from bigger weights on the lat pull downs) not so much happens. Even I (being really slow at growing muscles) think this is kind of.. not working the right way.
As I have a hang board at home I will try to do negatives on that one (some kind of climbing gear, basically some oddly shaped handles on a board).
Thanks again