IIFYM - protein consumption per sitting
sjohnson__1
Posts: 405 Member
IIFYM has worked wonders for me since getting rid of the "Bro-Science" dieting (all clean eating, meal timing, food restrictions, etc.) this past October. My only question is, is there any truth to the theory that suggests protein consumption should be limited to a certain amount per hour to maximize protein synthesis efficiency? Curious as to what you all have to say! Thanks...
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Replies
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I eat however much protein I want per meal. Daily and weekly total are the only important factor.0
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I eat however much protein I want per meal. Daily and weekly total are the only important factor.
I'm pretty much in the same boat, however, broscience lead me to believe that you could consume too much protein in one sitting pretty easily. Are you sure? Do you have support to the claim? I'm looking for a response backed up by science.
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Where do you think the nutrition goes, if we don't absorb it?0
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neanderthin wrote: »Where do you think the nutrition goes, if we don't absorb it?
Pooped out into protein cubes.0 -
I'll assume for 1 minute that the OP really has never come across any articles dealing with this and post this by Alan Aragon for his benefit. Also not sure why the IIFYM reference.neanderthin wrote: »Where do you think the nutrition goes, if we don't absorb it?
Pooped out into protein cubes.
wannabebig.com/diet-and-nutrition/is-there-a-limit-to-how-much-protein-the-body-can-use-in-a-single-meal/
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sjohnson__1 wrote: »IIFYM has worked wonders for me since getting rid of the "Bro-Science" dieting (all clean eating, meal timing, food restrictions, etc.) this past October. My only question is, is there any truth to the theory that suggests protein consumption should be limited to a certain amount per hour to maximize protein synthesis efficiency? Curious as to what you all have to say! Thanks...
Just a quick reply here: I need to find the studies cited but Layne Norton does have a great article to explain where they came up with the "ideal" amount of protein per meal.
It actually comes down the amount of Leucine that triggers MPS (muscle protein synthesis) and what the fall off is. It appears to be 3-4g Leucine (I believe its closer to 4g) when MPS is at it's peak.
http://www.biolayne.com/wp-content/uploads/Norton-J-Ag-Food-Ind-Hi-Tech-2008.pdf
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Hopefully for use again laterneanderthin wrote: »Where do you think the nutrition goes, if we don't absorb it?
Pooped out into protein cubes.
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neanderthin wrote: »
I'll assume for 1 minute that the OP really has never come across any articles dealing with this and post this by Alan Aragon for his benefit. Also not sure why the IIFYM reference.neanderthin wrote: »Where do you think the nutrition goes, if we don't absorb it?
Pooped out into protein cubes.
wannabebig.com/diet-and-nutrition/is-there-a-limit-to-how-much-protein-the-body-can-use-in-a-single-meal/
That's not what his question was.
He is looking for the ideal amount of protein to engage Muscle Protein Synthesis. Which yes, there are studies showing there is an ideal amount in relation to MPS.
Amount of protein the body can handle =/= Amount of protein to MAXIMIZE MPS.
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neanderthin wrote: »
I'll assume for 1 minute that the OP really has never come across any articles dealing with this and post this by Alan Aragon for his benefit. Also not sure why the IIFYM reference.neanderthin wrote: »Where do you think the nutrition goes, if we don't absorb it?
Pooped out into protein cubes.
wannabebig.com/diet-and-nutrition/is-there-a-limit-to-how-much-protein-the-body-can-use-in-a-single-meal/
Put simply, my use of IIFYM has introduced scenarios in which I may need to consume a large amount of a specific macronutrient in one meal (usually the last meal) to reach my daily allotment (in this case, protein). My question (as jmule correctly paraphrased) has to do with MPS efficiency. Does that clear up the confusion? Thanks for the article, I will give it a read.0 -
Jmule - I appreciate the article you provided as well. Both were excellent, and touched on different aspects of relevant studies.0
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sjohnson__1 wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »
I'll assume for 1 minute that the OP really has never come across any articles dealing with this and post this by Alan Aragon for his benefit. Also not sure why the IIFYM reference.neanderthin wrote: »Where do you think the nutrition goes, if we don't absorb it?
Pooped out into protein cubes.
wannabebig.com/diet-and-nutrition/is-there-a-limit-to-how-much-protein-the-body-can-use-in-a-single-meal/
Put simply, my use of IIFYM has introduced scenarios in which I may need to consume a large amount of a specific macronutrient in one meal (usually the last meal) to reach my daily allotment (in this case, protein). My question (as jmule correctly paraphrased) has to do with MPS efficiency. Does that clear up the confusion? Thanks for the article, I will give it a read.
Yes, 3-4g Leucine to stimulate mTOR and increase MPS. Dependent on the source, that could be anywhere between 30-40g of protein. Norton's dissertation (Leucine is a Critical Factor Determining Protein Quantity and Quality of a Complete Meal to Initiate MPS), and other articles (Optimal Protein Intake to Maximize MPS, Norton, Wilson), also question frequency of meals in determining "optimal number of MPS stimulations that can be achieved per day to optimize muscle mass", which there isn't an answer to, because the research doesn't exist. On top of this, their is a refractory response where even though amino acid levels are still elevated, MPS stops because ATP is low. The introduction of more protein can can stimulate MPS again, and combined with carbs can enhance MPS. This created the fallacy amongst broscientists that is is necessary to eat every three hours to maximize MPS - however, studies have shown that too frequent meals actually impedes MPS.
Bottom line - space meals for convenience, hit your protein goals for the day. Trying to time meals for MPS purposes is futile.
ETA for: I didn't mean yes, you should limit protein intake every hour. My yes reply was for jmule that stated 3-4g of leucine as a marker for MPS. Even if you did space protein feeding correctly (which you can't), the question becomes how much more muscle would you actually put on? Is it even significant? That alone causes me to eat for convenience.0 -
This content has been removed.
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dieselbyte wrote: »sjohnson__1 wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »
I'll assume for 1 minute that the OP really has never come across any articles dealing with this and post this by Alan Aragon for his benefit. Also not sure why the IIFYM reference.neanderthin wrote: »Where do you think the nutrition goes, if we don't absorb it?
Pooped out into protein cubes.
wannabebig.com/diet-and-nutrition/is-there-a-limit-to-how-much-protein-the-body-can-use-in-a-single-meal/
Put simply, my use of IIFYM has introduced scenarios in which I may need to consume a large amount of a specific macronutrient in one meal (usually the last meal) to reach my daily allotment (in this case, protein). My question (as jmule correctly paraphrased) has to do with MPS efficiency. Does that clear up the confusion? Thanks for the article, I will give it a read.
Yes, 3-4g Leucine to stimulate mTOR and increase MPS. Dependent on the source, that could be anywhere between 30-40g of protein. Norton's dissertation (Leucine is a Critical Factor Determining Protein Quantity and Quality of a Complete Meal to Initiate MPS), and other articles (Optimal Protein Intake to Maximize MPS, Norton, Wilson), also question frequency of meals in determining "optimal number of MPS stimulations that can be achieved per day to optimize muscle mass", which there isn't an answer to, because the research doesn't exist. On top of this, their is a refractory response where even though amino acid levels are still elevated, MPS stops because ATP is low. The introduction of more protein can can stimulate MPS again, and combined with carbs can enhance MPS. This created the fallacy amongst broscientists that is is necessary to eat every three hours to maximize MPS - however, studies have shown that too frequent meals actually impedes MPS.
Bottom line - space meals for convenience, hit your protein goals for the day. Trying to time meals for MPS purposes is futile.
This is exactly the conclusion I came to after reading the Norton, Wilson and Alan Aragon articles. Space meals, eat a decent amount of protein in combination with carbohydrates. Pretty simple.. Keep it well rounded and focus on daily macro/micro nutrients. I incorporate a 12-16hr fast currently due to convenience and preference while cutting.0 -
neanderthin wrote: »Where do you think the nutrition goes, if we don't absorb it?
Pooped out into protein cubes.
I love it when you talk dirty.0 -
Here's one interesting study titled "A Review of Issues of Dietary Protein Intake in Humans" by Bilsborough and Mann. Here are a few key notes -
The three different
measures of defining protein intake, which should be viewed together are: absolute
intake (g/d), intake related to body weight (g ∙ kg-1 ∙ d-1) and intake as a fraction
of total energy (percent energy). A suggested maximum protein intake based on
bodily needs, weight control evidence, and avoiding protein toxicity would be
approximately of 25% of energy requirements at approximately 2 to 2.5 g ∙ kg-1 ∙
d-1, corresponding to 176 g protein per day for an 80 kg individual on a 12,000kJ/d
diet. This is well below the theoretical maximum safe intake range for an 80 kg
person (285 to 365 g/d)
A comprehensive review of protein needs for strength and endurance trained
athletes have been suggested at 1.4 to 1.8 g ∙ kg-1 ∙ d-1 and 1.2 to 1.4 g ∙ kg-1 ∙ d-1
respectively, corresponding to 112 to 144 and 96 to 112 grams protein per day for
an 80 kg individual respectively (14). Evidence suggests however, that subgroups
such as gym-goers, active people, and bodybuilders have felt that their protein needs
exceed recommended levels, and are consuming in the area of 150 to 400 grams
per day (15-17).
An 80 kg individual, for example, could theoretically tolerate 325 g
protein per day (range 285 to 365 g) without showing symptoms of hyperammonemia
and hyperaminoacidemia. Such levels are certainly not advocated by the
authors and no practical rationale exists for such elevated protein intakes
Absorption rates of amino acids from the gut can vary from 1.4 g/h for raw egg
white to 8 to 10 g/h for whey protein isolate. Slowly absorbed amino acids such
as casein (~ 6 g/h) and repeated small doses of whey protein (2.9 g per 20 min,
totaling ~ 7 g/h) promote leucine balance, a marker of protein balance, superior to
that of a single dose of 30 g of whey protein or free amino acids which are both
rapidly absorbed (8 to 10 g/h), and enhance amino acid oxidation. This gives us
an initial understanding that although higher protein intakes are physiologically
possible, and tolerable by the human body, they may not be functionally optimal
in terms of building and preserving body protein.
Based upon the current limited evidence
available, the authors would speculate that 25% energy as protein is a safe and
viable level for the general public and athletes to both assist with weight control
and maintain (or improve) lean body mass.
For example, an 80 kg individual on a 25% protein energy intake would consume
176 g protein per day (2.2 g ∙ kg-1 ∙ d-1) on a 12,000 kJ/d diet. A 60 kg individual
would consume 118 g at 2.0 g ∙ kg-1 ∙ d-1 on a 8000 kJ/d diet and 147 g protein at
2.5 g ∙ kg-1 ∙ d-1 on a 10000 kJ/d diet.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CFYQFjAH&url=http://www.cscca.org/document/proteinissue&ei=2kwlVZTyEpCRsQTlsoGIDg&usg=AFQjCNGkxhEMjWuuONKov2VU2-nVmwB03g&sig2=mq8bttjPO-4CCwFUgTzrPg
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Excerpt from study abstract titled "Dietary protein for athletes: from requirements to optimum adaptation" by Phillips and Van Loon:
Our consensus opinion is that leucine, and possibly the other branched-chain amino acids, occupy a position of prominence in stimulating muscle protein synthesis; that protein intakes in the range of 1.3-1.8 g · kg(-1) · day(-1) consumed as 3-4 isonitrogenous meals will maximize muscle protein synthesis. These recommendations may also be dependent on training status: experienced athletes would require less, while more protein should be consumed during periods of high frequency/intensity training. Elevated protein consumption, as high as 1.8-2.0 g · kg(-1) · day(-1) depending on the caloric deficit, may be advantageous in preventing lean mass losses during periods of energy restriction to promote fat loss
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/221504250 -
Both of the above studies seem to recommend small, repeated "doses" of protein. Contrast this with weight gainer shake that I normally consume with 56 grams of protein. I'm glad you posted the question and that I did some more research!0
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dieselbyte wrote: »sjohnson__1 wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »
I'll assume for 1 minute that the OP really has never come across any articles dealing with this and post this by Alan Aragon for his benefit. Also not sure why the IIFYM reference.neanderthin wrote: »Where do you think the nutrition goes, if we don't absorb it?
Pooped out into protein cubes.
wannabebig.com/diet-and-nutrition/is-there-a-limit-to-how-much-protein-the-body-can-use-in-a-single-meal/
Put simply, my use of IIFYM has introduced scenarios in which I may need to consume a large amount of a specific macronutrient in one meal (usually the last meal) to reach my daily allotment (in this case, protein). My question (as jmule correctly paraphrased) has to do with MPS efficiency. Does that clear up the confusion? Thanks for the article, I will give it a read.
Yes, 3-4g Leucine to stimulate mTOR and increase MPS. Dependent on the source, that could be anywhere between 30-40g of protein. Norton's dissertation (Leucine is a Critical Factor Determining Protein Quantity and Quality of a Complete Meal to Initiate MPS), and other articles (Optimal Protein Intake to Maximize MPS, Norton, Wilson), also question frequency of meals in determining "optimal number of MPS stimulations that can be achieved per day to optimize muscle mass", which there isn't an answer to, because the research doesn't exist. On top of this, their is a refractory response where even though amino acid levels are still elevated, MPS stops because ATP is low. The introduction of more protein can can stimulate MPS again, and combined with carbs can enhance MPS. This created the fallacy amongst broscientists that is is necessary to eat every three hours to maximize MPS - however, studies have shown that too frequent meals actually impedes MPS.
Bottom line - space meals for convenience, hit your protein goals for the day. Trying to time meals for MPS purposes is futile.
ETA for: I didn't mean yes, you should limit protein intake every hour. My yes reply was for jmule that stated 3-4g of leucine as a marker for MPS. Even if you did space protein feeding correctly (which you can't), the question becomes how much more muscle would you actually put on? Is it even significant? That alone causes me to eat for convenience.
While I posted an article to answer @sjohnson__1 , I agree with @dieselbyte. I'm not an enhanced lifter, therefore the amount of "gain" from trying to time everything out or eat only a specific amount of protein per meal isn't worth it IMO. I'm sure someone on MFP is a genetic champion and they are anabolic 100% of the time :-) But for us mere average Joe's.....keep on doing what we’re doing and watch the gains come slow and steady
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dieselbyte wrote: »sjohnson__1 wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »
I'll assume for 1 minute that the OP really has never come across any articles dealing with this and post this by Alan Aragon for his benefit. Also not sure why the IIFYM reference.neanderthin wrote: »Where do you think the nutrition goes, if we don't absorb it?
Pooped out into protein cubes.
wannabebig.com/diet-and-nutrition/is-there-a-limit-to-how-much-protein-the-body-can-use-in-a-single-meal/
Put simply, my use of IIFYM has introduced scenarios in which I may need to consume a large amount of a specific macronutrient in one meal (usually the last meal) to reach my daily allotment (in this case, protein). My question (as jmule correctly paraphrased) has to do with MPS efficiency. Does that clear up the confusion? Thanks for the article, I will give it a read.
Yes, 3-4g Leucine to stimulate mTOR and increase MPS. Dependent on the source, that could be anywhere between 30-40g of protein. Norton's dissertation (Leucine is a Critical Factor Determining Protein Quantity and Quality of a Complete Meal to Initiate MPS), and other articles (Optimal Protein Intake to Maximize MPS, Norton, Wilson), also question frequency of meals in determining "optimal number of MPS stimulations that can be achieved per day to optimize muscle mass", which there isn't an answer to, because the research doesn't exist. On top of this, their is a refractory response where even though amino acid levels are still elevated, MPS stops because ATP is low. The introduction of more protein can can stimulate MPS again, and combined with carbs can enhance MPS. This created the fallacy amongst broscientists that is is necessary to eat every three hours to maximize MPS - however, studies have shown that too frequent meals actually impedes MPS.
Bottom line - space meals for convenience, hit your protein goals for the day. Trying to time meals for MPS purposes is futile.
ETA for: I didn't mean yes, you should limit protein intake every hour. My yes reply was for jmule that stated 3-4g of leucine as a marker for MPS. Even if you did space protein feeding correctly (which you can't), the question becomes how much more muscle would you actually put on? Is it even significant? That alone causes me to eat for convenience.
While I posted an article to answer @sjohnson__1 , I agree with @dieselbyte. I'm not an enhanced lifter, therefore the amount of "gain" from trying to time everything out or eat only a specific amount of protein per meal isn't worth it IMO. I'm sure someone on MFP is a genetic champion and they are anabolic 100% of the time :-) But for us mere average Joe's.....keep on doing what we’re doing and watch the gains come slow and steady
This guy.... he gets it.0 -
dieselbyte wrote: »sjohnson__1 wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »
I'll assume for 1 minute that the OP really has never come across any articles dealing with this and post this by Alan Aragon for his benefit. Also not sure why the IIFYM reference.neanderthin wrote: »Where do you think the nutrition goes, if we don't absorb it?
Pooped out into protein cubes.
wannabebig.com/diet-and-nutrition/is-there-a-limit-to-how-much-protein-the-body-can-use-in-a-single-meal/
Put simply, my use of IIFYM has introduced scenarios in which I may need to consume a large amount of a specific macronutrient in one meal (usually the last meal) to reach my daily allotment (in this case, protein). My question (as jmule correctly paraphrased) has to do with MPS efficiency. Does that clear up the confusion? Thanks for the article, I will give it a read.
Yes, 3-4g Leucine to stimulate mTOR and increase MPS. Dependent on the source, that could be anywhere between 30-40g of protein. Norton's dissertation (Leucine is a Critical Factor Determining Protein Quantity and Quality of a Complete Meal to Initiate MPS), and other articles (Optimal Protein Intake to Maximize MPS, Norton, Wilson), also question frequency of meals in determining "optimal number of MPS stimulations that can be achieved per day to optimize muscle mass", which there isn't an answer to, because the research doesn't exist. On top of this, their is a refractory response where even though amino acid levels are still elevated, MPS stops because ATP is low. The introduction of more protein can can stimulate MPS again, and combined with carbs can enhance MPS. This created the fallacy amongst broscientists that is is necessary to eat every three hours to maximize MPS - however, studies have shown that too frequent meals actually impedes MPS.
Bottom line - space meals for convenience, hit your protein goals for the day. Trying to time meals for MPS purposes is futile.
ETA for: I didn't mean yes, you should limit protein intake every hour. My yes reply was for jmule that stated 3-4g of leucine as a marker for MPS. Even if you did space protein feeding correctly (which you can't), the question becomes how much more muscle would you actually put on? Is it even significant? That alone causes me to eat for convenience.
While I posted an article to answer @sjohnson__1 , I agree with @dieselbyte. I'm not an enhanced lifter, therefore the amount of "gain" from trying to time everything out or eat only a specific amount of protein per meal isn't worth it IMO. I'm sure someone on MFP is a genetic champion and they are anabolic 100% of the time :-) But for us mere average Joe's.....keep on doing what we’re doing and watch the gains come slow and steady
This guy.... he gets it.
Although infrequent on MFP, a majority of the responses to my question have been excellent and much appreciated.0 -
sjohnson__1 wrote: »dieselbyte wrote: »sjohnson__1 wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »
I'll assume for 1 minute that the OP really has never come across any articles dealing with this and post this by Alan Aragon for his benefit. Also not sure why the IIFYM reference.neanderthin wrote: »Where do you think the nutrition goes, if we don't absorb it?
Pooped out into protein cubes.
wannabebig.com/diet-and-nutrition/is-there-a-limit-to-how-much-protein-the-body-can-use-in-a-single-meal/
Put simply, my use of IIFYM has introduced scenarios in which I may need to consume a large amount of a specific macronutrient in one meal (usually the last meal) to reach my daily allotment (in this case, protein). My question (as jmule correctly paraphrased) has to do with MPS efficiency. Does that clear up the confusion? Thanks for the article, I will give it a read.
Yes, 3-4g Leucine to stimulate mTOR and increase MPS. Dependent on the source, that could be anywhere between 30-40g of protein. Norton's dissertation (Leucine is a Critical Factor Determining Protein Quantity and Quality of a Complete Meal to Initiate MPS), and other articles (Optimal Protein Intake to Maximize MPS, Norton, Wilson), also question frequency of meals in determining "optimal number of MPS stimulations that can be achieved per day to optimize muscle mass", which there isn't an answer to, because the research doesn't exist. On top of this, their is a refractory response where even though amino acid levels are still elevated, MPS stops because ATP is low. The introduction of more protein can can stimulate MPS again, and combined with carbs can enhance MPS. This created the fallacy amongst broscientists that is is necessary to eat every three hours to maximize MPS - however, studies have shown that too frequent meals actually impedes MPS.
Bottom line - space meals for convenience, hit your protein goals for the day. Trying to time meals for MPS purposes is futile.
ETA for: I didn't mean yes, you should limit protein intake every hour. My yes reply was for jmule that stated 3-4g of leucine as a marker for MPS. Even if you did space protein feeding correctly (which you can't), the question becomes how much more muscle would you actually put on? Is it even significant? That alone causes me to eat for convenience.
While I posted an article to answer @sjohnson__1 , I agree with @dieselbyte. I'm not an enhanced lifter, therefore the amount of "gain" from trying to time everything out or eat only a specific amount of protein per meal isn't worth it IMO. I'm sure someone on MFP is a genetic champion and they are anabolic 100% of the time :-) But for us mere average Joe's.....keep on doing what we’re doing and watch the gains come slow and steady
This guy.... he gets it.
Although infrequent on MFP, a majority of the responses to my question have been excellent and much appreciated.
we got some smart peeps around here.
also we consume a large quantity of said peeps as well.0
This discussion has been closed.
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