Stronglifts for Hypertrophy?

terizius

Stronglifts is a simple yet great program for building strength. However, I don't view it as a hypertrophy program. I often see it recommended, heck, I recommend it regularly, but how does it work for muscle size increases since the rep range is outside of the traditional hypertrophy range (of 6-12 reps)? Personally, I can't want to start doing Stronglifts again, but I am saving it for my cut so that I can gain/maintain strength.

Who has experience bulking on Stronglifts and do you feel the results would have been any different if you had done a traditional hypertrophy routine?

terizius

hmm.. maybe I should have used Stronglifts for this bulk as a personal experiment..

usmcmp

Stronglifts is often suggested for beginners because they will experience both sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar hypertrophy on it. Beginners need a solid strength base before considering moving to an actual hypertrophy program.

I have experience on a similar strength program to stronglifts as well as a traditional hypertrophy program. My lean mass increased far more on a traditional hypertrophy program than they did on the strength program (a pound per month versus 1/4 of a pound per month). The large difference could have been due to nutrition or simply my personal muscle response (such as percentage of type I versus type II fibers).

usmcmp

My opinion? Just lift and eat appropriately.

jmule24

terizius wrote: »

Stronglifts is a simple yet great program for building strength. However, I don't view it as a hypertrophy program. I often see it recommended, heck, I recommend it regularly, but how does it work for muscle size increases since the rep range is outside of the traditional hypertrophy range (of 6-12 reps)? Personally, I can't want to start doing Stronglifts again, but I am saving it for my cut so that I can gain/maintain strength.

Who has experience bulking on Stronglifts and do you feel the results would have been any different if you had done a traditional hypertrophy routine?

I did Ice Cream Fitness 5x5 by Jason Blaha when doing my first "bulk." The premiss of the program is strength first, and hypertrophy second.

Main lifts are 5x5
1. Squat / DL / OHP / Bench

Accessory lifts are all 8-10 hypertrophy range.

Every program I have fun has been a 5x5 base and a year ago I did NOT look like my profile avatar.

terizius

Anyone else try Stronglifts for bulking? Or another non-hypertrophy based program?

giannigreco83

jmule24 wrote: »

terizius wrote: »

Stronglifts is a simple yet great program for building strength. However, I don't view it as a hypertrophy program. I often see it recommended, heck, I recommend it regularly, but how does it work for muscle size increases since the rep range is outside of the traditional hypertrophy range (of 6-12 reps)? Personally, I can't want to start doing Stronglifts again, but I am saving it for my cut so that I can gain/maintain strength.

Who has experience bulking on Stronglifts and do you feel the results would have been any different if you had done a traditional hypertrophy routine?

I did Ice Cream Fitness 5x5 by Jason Blaha when doing my first "bulk." The premiss of the program is strength first, and hypertrophy second.

Main lifts are 5x5
1. Squat / DL / OHP / Bench

Accessory lifts are all 8-10 hypertrophy range.

Every program I have fun has been a 5x5 base and a year ago I did NOT look like my profile avatar.

so you can become like your avatar by doing a 5x5 program???

IvanOcampo

I'm currently bulking on a 5x5 with additional hypertrophy exercises in the 6-10 rep range.
It all depends on what your goal is.
Essentially, one will always follow the other.
Building strength will eventually be coupled with bigger muscles, and building bigger muscles will eventually result in being stronger ..
It's often a lot simpler than it seems: If you lift heavy, and are in a caloric surplus, you'll get stronger and have bigger muscles.

terizius

I am in week 5 of a planned 12 week bulk. I may switch to 5x5 for the second half and see what happens.

Sarauk2sf

You really cannot just look at the rep range - you need to look at the reps - hypertrophy is about volume/poundage.

Ignoring warm ups, you get 25 working reps with a 5 x 5.

The main limitation imo is that it misses direct work on some muscles - e.g. biceps, glutes, calves. These get worked, but either not as a primary mover and/or not frequently enough.

A 5 x 5 routine is great for a beginner as they need very little stimulus, but eventually you will want to throw in some assistance lifts to round it out more.

terizius

You are right Sarauk, its more than just the range. Never-the-less, those rep ranges affect the muscles differently. Lower rep ranges have more of a neural stimulus and simply don't break down the muscles like working in the 6-12 range. Conversely... 5 is really close to six..

It doesn't have that direct work.. but the theory (and general experience) is that heavy and frequent squat work will cause gains everywhere else too.

I've got good records of gains made on my current program. and I've about dialed in my calorie range. I think it would be interesting to compare weight, body fat and measurements, and lift gains with the two programs. On the other hand.. I would have to choose a weight that is equally challenging as what I do now while still giving me room to grow within those six weeks. Hmm..

arditarose

Super interested in this. I don't do 5x5 but I use another power lifting type program, and as I'm going into maintenance (hopefully for a little recomp action), I often wonder how much hypertrophy work would be needed, and how much would just have me spinning my wheels. I know your question was about bulking, but...you know. I've also considered switching to 5x5 but am not sure if it is best.

LolBroScience

terizius wrote: »

You are right Sarauk, its more than just the range. Never-the-less, those rep ranges affect the muscles differently. Lower rep ranges have more of a neural stimulus and simply don't break down the muscles like working in the 6-12 range. Conversely... 5 is really close to six..

It doesn't have that direct work.. but the theory (and general experience) is that heavy and frequent squat work will cause gains everywhere else too.

I've got good records of gains made on my current program. and I've about dialed in my calorie range. I think it would be interesting to compare weight, body fat and measurements, and lift gains with the two programs. On the other hand.. I would have to choose a weight that is equally challenging as what I do now while still giving me room to grow within those six weeks. Hmm..

Because it is easier to achieve higher volume with higher rep ranges generally speaking...

My input : Lift heavy things over and over. Stop majoring in the minors (especially if you're not an intermediate to advanced lifter).

IvanOcampo

LolBroScience wrote: »

My input : Lift heavy things over and over. Stop majoring in the minors (especially if you're not an intermediate to advanced lifter).

<---- THAT!

If you're an advanced lifter, your gains will come slower and slower, so you'll need to look at alternative ways of gaining muscle/weight.
For a beginner (and that means anyone with less than 3 years lifting experience), either 5x5 or starting strength will work.
In my opinion you can't benefit from doing higher rep ranges in compound moves, and you shouldn't do low rep ranges in isolated movements.
So, if you want to target smaller muscle groups (ie, biceps), include chin ups in your program, do abs a couple of times a week, or dips for triceps ....
Though concentrating on the main 5 compound moves (squat, bench, deadlift, bent over row and OHP), you'll target all your muscles one way or another.

terizius

@LolBroScience Not very specific input - care to elaborate?
By your profile, you've got quite a bit more experience that me, so if you have specific advice you are willing to provide, I'd be happy to hear it. My current goals are weight gain up to about 165 with sub 10% body fat (at my current 157 lbs and . I also want increase my lifts, with my current goals to hit 225 on bench, 315 on squat and 405 on Deadlift. I'm following a modified version of Shortcut to Size, which can be found on the Bodybuilding.com site. Its a micro-periodization routine, 4 day split with Back/Bis, Legs, Chest/Tris, and Deadlift/Shoulders. Reps change weekly from 12-15 all the way down to 3-5 before restarting. I'm currently seeing increases in size and strength and planned to continue that program until I cut, after which I had planned to start doing a pure strength based program.
Your experience and recommendations would be welcome.

Sarauk2sf

terizius wrote: »

You are right Sarauk, its more than just the range. Never-the-less, those rep ranges affect the muscles differently. Lower rep ranges have more of a neural stimulus and simply don't break down the muscles like working in the 6-12 range. Conversely... 5 is really close to six..

It doesn't have that direct work.. but the theory (and general experience) is that heavy and frequent squat work will cause gains everywhere else too.

I've got good records of gains made on my current program. and I've about dialed in my calorie range. I think it would be interesting to compare weight, body fat and measurements, and lift gains with the two programs. On the other hand.. I would have to choose a weight that is equally challenging as what I do now while still giving me room to grow within those six weeks. Hmm..

Its really not that much of a difference and not worth worrying about unless you are relatively experienced and then you should be looking at periodization anyway. Doing one v the other, you are missing out on the benefits of the other - and they both have different benefits. However, its moot if you are a new lifter. You are overcomplicating and oversimplifying it at the same time.

They have looked at doing comparisons- under controlled studies...and there is not that much of a difference - what does impact it is volume/poundage as I noted. Check out Brad Shoenfeld's work.


Have a listen to this (there are loads more out there about this) from Layne Norton about the topic of rep ranges.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GenviIWIeqA

He goes into a DUP - but that's not the point here. The point is - do the heavy compounds and iso/assistance work and get the best of both worlds. Include periodization when appropriate.


BTW: I know what muscles squats work. They are actually not the best exercise for glute hypertrophy (nor a lot of other muscle groups). You are not going to get jacked forearms from squats!

akiba254

I am just starting this program so loving the comments here and thank you.

LolBroScience

Sara covered what I would've said at a more extensive level.

terizius

Thanks Sara, very interesting stuff. Most of the research I have done is from PubMed. As Layne says, it doesn't account for volume. Also, I look forward to reading Brads work. I haven't been turned on to him yet. Great stuff!

Sarauk2sf

terizius wrote: »

Thanks Sara, very interesting stuff. Most of the research I have done is from PubMed. As Layne says, it doesn't account for volume. Also, I look forward to reading Brads work. I haven't been turned on to him yet. Great stuff!

That' the problem with just looking at individual studies, especially in the areas of lifting and sports nutrition, it only looks at a small piece of the puzzle. Guys like Shoenfeld look at this stuff all the time and disseminate it as well as having their own experiences as competitive bb'ers and coaches.

Here is a great article where Bret Contreras interviews Shoenfeld and he actually addresses the issues of trying to interpret studies.

http://bretcontreras.com/an-interview-with-brad-schoenfeld-the-hypertrophy-specialist/

As you like using PubMed you will be pleased to find some of Shoenfeld's studies on there. In fact, Lyle McDonald reviews one if his co-authored studies on rep ranges - a recent one published last year.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24714538

Lyle's discussion:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/effects-of-different-volume-equated-resistance-training-loading-strategies-on-muscular-adaptations-in-well-trained-men-research-review.html/

Conclusion in the study:

"In conclusion, this study showed that both bodybuilding- and powerlifting-type training promote similar increases in muscular size, but powerlifting-type training is superior for enhancing maximal strength."

Caveat - there are also drawbacks to powerlifting type training (lower reps) so one is not superior to the other.

terizius

I'm familiar with Lyle, I've read most of his stuff. Also, I've read pretty much every meta-analysis on lifting/hypertrophy that pubmed has, but it still has the limitations of not being aligned or consider all/the same factors. I will check those studies you linked and the discussions tomorrow. Thanks again.

Sarauk2sf

terizius wrote: »

I'm familiar with Lyle, I've read most of his stuff. Also, I've read pretty much every meta-analysis on lifting/hypertrophy that pubmed has, but it still has the limitations of not being aligned or consider all/the same factors. I will check those studies you linked and the discussions tomorrow. Thanks again.

I linked them as you said that you had not heard of Shoenfeld so you had not read his articles and studies - he has a few - Shoenfeld is pretty well known and considered one of the experts in the field of hypertrophy from an evidence based perspective. And I said in my post that there were limitations (which was really also a fyi for you as you had mentioned the studies you had read and seemed to be basing your conclusions on them) - as does Shoenfeld in his articles and studies - and the evidence and knowledge is constantly evolving, in this field it seems in particular. Its a confusing and interesting stage. Which sort of comes back to LolBro's comment - don't major in the minors.

dkimyo

stronglift can def build size for beginners for sure, a lot more efficiently than other hypertrophy programs around...and thats how I gained my size initially.. for advanced lifters, better to stick with hypertrophy program within 10-15 rep range

jmule24

@terizius knowing you're about the details, this is a great video to watch. Also, after watching go to his link. Long detailed articles about strength training. He uses science too
http://youtu.be/MeFXMX9Al8w

keithcw_the_first

LolBroScience wrote: »

My input : Lift heavy things over and over. Stop majoring in the minors (especially if you're not an intermediate to advanced lifter).

What about my shrugs/forearm curls/reverse forearm curl/preacher curl day? Then I finish it off with some calf raises. Is that the same?

LolBroScience

keithcw_the_first wrote: »

LolBroScience wrote: »

My input : Lift heavy things over and over. Stop majoring in the minors (especially if you're not an intermediate to advanced lifter).

What about my shrugs/forearm curls/reverse forearm curl/preacher curl day? Then I finish it off with some calf raises. Is that the same?

The same in regards to what?

keithcw_the_first

That's a joke fail on my part.

I meant "Do these minor isolation exercises count as majoring in the minors?"

That's not actually part of my routine.

LolBroScience

keithcw_the_first wrote: »

That's a joke fail on my part.

I meant "Do these minor isolation exercises count as majoring in the minors?"

That's not actually part of my routine.

Gotcha. I don't think isolations are useless at all, but I do think that many people put far too much emphasis on them when they should be focusing the majority of their efforts on the prime movers.

keithcw_the_first

Yes; certainly not useless. I do feel like I see people doing behind the back barbell forearm curls and moving the bar two inches, and I wonder if there is a better use of their time.

MityMax96

For me personally.....I try to do the best of both worlds.
One day out of the week, I will do an upper body heavy day.
So I pick a few compound type exercises for back, shoulders, chest......
Keep rep range in the 4 - 6 area, for about 4 - 5 sets.

Then during the week, I break out the muscle groups....
Do lighter weight, and higher reps....and more exercises....
So for example on back.
My heavy day will be weighted pull-ups, followed up by bent over barbell rows, then underhand grip lat pulls.
That's it.

During the week for back
I will do weighted pullups, but lighter weight, so only body weight + a max of 45lbs. 4 sets x 8 - 10 reps
Bent over barbell rows, again lighter weight, maybe just 135 lbs. 4 x 8 - 10 reps
Lat pull downs. 4 x 8 - 10
Seated cable rows. 4 x 10 - 15 with a squeeze and hold on the contraction
close grip lat pulls. 4 x 15 - 20 pretty light weight.

Take a look at sprinters legs vs the legs of marathon runners.

terizius

@Sarauk2sf I pulled up Schoenfelds site today while having dinner to begin reading his work. I started at the bottom and interestingly, the article was about why bodybuilders are bigger than powerlifters. Essentially, they (Schoenfeld and Contreras) were discussing if strength or hypertrophy programs are better for those seeking hypertrophy. They state:

"Can we simultaneously train for both powerlifting and bodybuilding and thereby achieve a win/win situation? In other words, by incorporating a bit of both can you maximize strength and size?

The authors of this article believe that you can't."

They address volume and time under tension, but it seems quite clear from the article that of someone is bulking for the purpose of muscular hypertrophy, it is best to stick with a "hypertrophy" routine rather than a strength/powerlifting routine.

https://www.t-nation.com/training/why-bodybuilders-are-more-jacked-than-powerlifters