Running question...

Log_n_Jog

Hi! I have been running for the past couple of years and plan to do my third half-marathon in October. I've decided to set a time goal for this race and have a specific pace/mile in mind. Several of the training programs I've checked out suggest running the long run slower than your intended race pace so that you can build endurance and get your body used to covering that many miles. Most programs also include speed work during the week, but it in short 30-60 minute sessions. My question is this: how can you train at a pace slower than your race pace (sometimes 1-3 minutes slower depending on the program) for the long run and still be able to run at race pace during the actual race? Thanks for your help!

rybo

Good question. Seems very counter intuitive doesn't it?
You want to run your long runs slower, so you don't beat yourself up and have energy to run your speed runs during the week. For a half marathon & proper training, you will undoubtedly be able to run quicker than your long run pace on race day. I wouldn't get caught up in the numbers for how slow you run them, just make sure you run them easy. They shouldn't take you very long to recover from.
I'm a fan of a tempo run once/week. They helped me be able to carry my pace over distance.

Now when you get into marathon trainnig and long run pace vs marathon pace, that's when I really question the validity of the super slow long runs, unless you are running 60+ miles/week.

Log_n_Jog

Thank you for your help! That makes sense to me now.

CarsonRuns

The HM is 98% aerobic. You build this by running at 75% to 85% of max HR. That is why it works.

My long run pace is a full 2:00 per mile slower than my HM race pace.

With that being said, you can't pick an arbitrary time and train to it. You need to train based on your current level of fitness. Take a recent race time, a 5K time will do, and plug it in to McMillan's race pace calculator to see what it projects to for the HM. Then, train to that time using the training paces the calculator produces for you.

CarsonRuns

Now when you get into marathon trainnig and long run pace vs marathon pace, that's when I really question the validity of the super slow long runs, unless you are running 60+ miles/week.

II don't know where this idea that you have to run the long run significantly slower than other easy runs comes from. McMillan's calculator has the long run pace only seconds slower than easy run pace. I believe that what has happened is that many people run their easy runs too fast to begin with, so they need to slow way down to cover a greater distance. The long run and easy runs should be at similar paces.

rybo

Now when you get into marathon trainnig and long run pace vs marathon pace, that's when I really question the validity of the super slow long runs, unless you are running 60+ miles/week.

II don't know where this idea that you have to run the long run significantly slower than other easy runs comes from. McMillan's calculator has the long run pace only seconds slower than easy run pace. I believe that what has happened is that many people run their easy runs too fast to begin with, so they need to slow way down to cover a greater distance. The long run and easy runs should be at similar paces.

I picked up on that notion over at the runner's world forums when I used to visit them. They were really big on that idea over there. For the life of me I could never understand it. My long run pace was very easy, but I got told(or infered) repeatedly that I was running it way too fast.

LisaWilson2012

Running a marathon, in my opinion, is all about stamina... and for that (again just my opinion) you can't beat interval training. Did interval training 3 times a week for a month, having not run EVER and did a 5k run in half an hour! Just my experience but wanted to share it.

timeasterday

The HM is 98% aerobic. You build this by running at 75% to 85% of max HR. That is why it works.

With that being said, you can't pick an arbitrary time and train to it. You need to train based on your current level of fitness.

Very good points here. That's why I train to a certain heart rate and never pace. I try to keep my long runs around 75-80% but I feel much better if I stay at the 75% level. I feel like I can run forever at that HR.

CarsonRuns

Running a marathon, in my opinion, is all about stamina... and for that (again just my opinion) you can't beat interval training. Did interval training 3 times a week for a month, having not run EVER and did a 5k run in half an hour! Just my experience but wanted to share it.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but that's just totally wrong. Interval training is the exact opposite of what you need to do to prepare for a marathon. It's all about aerobic base, which is developed by running easy miles (75% to 85% of MHR) over time ( like years). Interval training will make you a little bit faster and give you short term gains, but it doesn't even come close to building the aerobic fitness required for longer distances.

EnviousDan

I agree with CarsonRuns. HIIT with cardio is awesome for fitness and all but is a different kind. It won't benefit you in the same ways if a marathon is your goal.

SlowBigG

CarsonRuns - as a matter of interest, have you done or do you know about base training? I'm considering giving it a go using Maffetone.

I can see the benefits with people saying that when they started BT they were running 12min/miles at 142bpm and after "a few months" they were running 8.5 min/mile at 142bpm. I don't know if I have the patience though.

Any thoughts on base training?

CarsonRuns

CarsonRuns - as a matter of interest, have you done or do you know about base training? I'm considering giving it a go using Maffetone.

I can see the benefits with people saying that when they started BT they were running 12min/miles at 142bpm and after "a few months" they were running 8.5 min/mile at 142bpm. I don't know if I have the patience though.

Any thoughts on base training?

I absolutely do base training and have for years. It's one of the critical core components of any distance training program. I don't use Maffetone specifically, but I do run the vast majority of my runs at an easy effort (which in Maffetone would be between 75% and 85% of MHR). This is where you develop aerobic fitness, which is the foundation upon which all other training is built. I'm a Jack Daniels disciple, he advocates four phases of training:

1. Strength / Injury prevention - Here we do easy running and maybe some hill repeats to build the running muscles and to develop the connective tissues

2. Base phase - Lot's of easy running, with a 20 minute tempo section once per week and 4 to 10 strides at the end of a run once per week.

3. Sharpening - You start to incorporate workouts that are run at or around the paces that correspond to the race you are going to run as well as other workouts that will stress the proper physical systems based on your goals.

4. Race / Taper - Depending on whether you are peaking for a single race or a series of races, this phase will take on a different look. For marathon training, it will be a traditional taper. If you are rolling into a track season, it will be reduced mileage but still with workouts to keep you sharp for the distances that you are racing.

Of these phases, the base phase is the one with no specific length. You can base train for 3 months or 3 years (only that might get a little boring, but would still be greatly beneficial). Phases 1, 2 and 3 has specific lengths of effectiveness, so you have to plan you plan to execute it properly.

Hope this helps!

LisaWilson2012

Running a marathon, in my opinion, is all about stamina... and for that (again just my opinion) you can't beat interval training. Did interval training 3 times a week for a month, having not run EVER and did a 5k run in half an hour! Just my experience but wanted to share it.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but that's just totally wrong. Interval training is the exact opposite of what you need to do to prepare for a marathon. It's all about aerobic base, which is developed by running easy miles (75% to 85% of MHR) over time ( like years). Interval training will make you a little bit faster and give you short term gains, but it doesn't even come close to building the aerobic fitness required for longer distances.

Like I say this is my own personal experience. That 5k run was last September. I've since done a number of 10ks in between 46 and 60 minutes (depending how bored I get) and I'll be doing a HM in July. I'm already running 10 miles in approximately 1 hour 40. All the training has been done in the gym on the treadmill (interval training only) with the actual runs being done along the canal. My training regime has been 3 to 4 times a week and I run along the canal once a month.

LisaWilson2012

Running a marathon, in my opinion, is all about stamina... and for that (again just my opinion) you can't beat interval training. Did interval training 3 times a week for a month, having not run EVER and did a 5k run in half an hour! Just my experience but wanted to share it.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but that's just totally wrong. Interval training is the exact opposite of what you need to do to prepare for a marathon. It's all about aerobic base, which is developed by running easy miles (75% to 85% of MHR) over time ( like years). Interval training will make you a little bit faster and give you short term gains, but it doesn't even come close to building the aerobic fitness required for longer distances.

Like I say this is my own personal experience. That 5k run was last September. I've since done a number of 10ks in between 46 and 60 minutes (depending how bored I get) and I'll be doing a HM in July. I'm already running 10 miles in approximately 1 hour 40. All the training has been done in the gym on the treadmill (interval training only) with the actual runs being done along the canal. My training regime has been 3 to 4 times a week and I run along the canal once a month.

As I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, but interval training requires the anaerobic and aerobic systems to work in harmony with each other to increase stamina?

SlowBigG

CarsonRuns - thanks for taking the time to reply to my BT question. It's appreciated.

I have a Half in a couple of weeks and I've got some speed sessions lined up for that. I may consider a BT phase once that's out the way, as my next event isn't' until August.

For about 9 months, I've been doing a mixture of sessions peaking at 43mpw for a marathon, but generally doing 35-40 mpw. I'm wondering if I need to do something different to see some extra speed improvements. Lots to ponder, as always...

CarsonRuns

As I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, but interval training requires the anaerobic and aerobic systems to work in harmony with each other to increase stamina?

I don't know what you are defining as stamina.

The basis for all distance running is aerobic base. You get this by running easy miles over time, lots of them. If you don't have the aerobic base, speed work is only effective to a point. Speed is the icing on the cake, but you have to have the cake first (aerobic base). The anaerobic systems only come into play at the end of a race when your body has reached it ability to perform aerobically. This is, of course, for distance running. Anything under 800m is a different animal and one must train accordingly.

CarsonRuns

I'm wondering if I need to do something different to see some extra speed improvements. Lots to ponder, as always...

You will see the biggest speed improvements by continuing to run the mileage you are running (or higher) over time. I did my first marathon in Oct. 2010 and my third was in Oct. 2012. Over that two year period, I logged over 5000 miles, over 85% of which were at an easy run pace (75% to 85% of MHR). My marathon time dropped from 3:38 to 3:12.

Miles, miles and more miles. That's the answer.

Log_n_Jog

I'm wondering if I need to do something different to see some extra speed improvements. Lots to ponder, as always...

You will see the biggest speed improvements by continuing to run the mileage you are running (or higher) over time. I did my first marathon in Oct. 2010 and my third was in Oct. 2012. Over that two year period, I logged over 5000 miles, over 85% of which were at an easy run pace (75% to 85% of MHR). My marathon time dropped from 3:38 to 3:12.

Miles, miles and more miles. That's the answer.

This has been my experience, as well. The more miles I log the more improved my running, but I know everyone's different. I'm going to slowly build up my mileage to 15 miles and start doing tempo runs (something I've never tried before). Thank you so much for all of your suggestions and comments!

CarsonRuns

I'm wondering if I need to do something different to see some extra speed improvements. Lots to ponder, as always...

You will see the biggest speed improvements by continuing to run the mileage you are running (or higher) over time. I did my first marathon in Oct. 2010 and my third was in Oct. 2012. Over that two year period, I logged over 5000 miles, over 85% of which were at an easy run pace (75% to 85% of MHR). My marathon time dropped from 3:38 to 3:12.

Miles, miles and more miles. That's the answer.

This has been my experience, as well. The more miles I log the more improved my running, but I know everyone's different. I'm going to slowly build up my mileage to 15 miles and start doing tempo runs (something I've never tried before). Thank you so much for all of your suggestions and comments!

For the tempo runs, make sure that you are running at the appropriate pace. They should be done at LT pace, loosely defined as the pace that you can sustain for an hour. For some, this might be 10K pace, for others, closer to HM pace. If you run your tempo too fast, you aren't getting the intended benefit. Also, it's not necessary to run miles upon miles at tempo pace. Daniels recommends 20 minutes of tempo about once per week. I would do this near the end of a mid week run that is somewhere between 6 and 10 miles. Do the first 2/3 or so of the run at easy pace, then do 20 minutes at LT pace, then a short cool down of half a mile to a mile. As you progress to the later stages of marathon training, that tempo section may go up to 40 minutes or so, but not much more.