Squats and Form

Fit_French

So I've mastered my form with body weight squats and dumbbell squats, whether I hold them by my sides or up by my chest, but at the gym where I work out there is no squat rack but they do have a barbell and plates and a smith machine. I've tried using light plates with the barbell since no one is ever there to spot or help, and I can't seem to keep my knees from going over my toes when I have the bar on my back.

So my question is, should I try squatting with the bar in front or just use the smith machine? dumbbell squats are only going to take me so far, or what about cable assisted squats?

whierd

I suggest watching squat form videos to help you.

Go to Youtube and search for "So You Think You Can Squat"

meshashesha2012

dont worry about your knees going over your toes. depending on your leg and tibia length this will be unavoidable when you do deep squats. this is true for all varieties of squats

StephieWillcox

dont worry about your knees going over your toes. depending on your leg and tibia length this will be unavoidable when you do deep squats. this is true for all varieties of squats

Agreed ^^^

For months and months I couldn't work out why my knees would always go over my toes a little bit doing squats - turned out that's just how I was built!!

aelunyu

If you have long legs, your knees are going to go slightly forward, and that's ok. The main thing to be consciously aware of in the back squat is whether when you "sink" if your core is parting your hips. It sounds weird, but when I first started squatting heavily, I imagined that when I was in the lowest portion, that I was pregnant, and my baby bump was the thing that was actively parting my legs. This ensures that 1. your core is fully engaged and full of a lot of air, and 2. that your knees cannot collapse inward when coming up out of the movement.

holothuroidea

It's fine for your knees to go over your toes. They'll go out farther when you do back squats, but it's okay if it happens in a front squat, too. As long as the weight is centered over your midfoot, it doesn't matter.

I agree with aelunyu, the most important things to worry about with your knees in a squat is driving them out. You'll notice as the weight gets heavier that keeping your knees out as you go down gives you more stability and pushing them outwards as you come out of the squat gives you a lot more power to lift the weight.

BeachGingerOnTheRocks

You really need a rack for back squats. If you can lift a weight over your head to put on your shoulders, it is probably too light to use for squats. Try to use lifting straps to hold on to the 50-95 pound dumb bells (presuming your gym has them this heavy) and sticking with dumb bell squats.

holothuroidea

You really need a rack for back squats. If you can lift a weight over your head to put on your shoulders, it is probably too light to use for squats. Try to use lifting straps to hold on to the 50-95 pound dumb bells (presuming your gym has them this heavy) and sticking with dumb bell squats.

Well sure, but there's nothing wrong with practicing barbell form with a lighter weight until you can find a rack.

Jen21878

I'm used to doing squats with the barbell and weights and I was always afraid of falling forward and I could never focus on lifting/driving w/ my heels.

I just trained legs w/ my gf who has been training for years....we used the smith machine. BEST ever!!!! I high recommend using it b/c then you can focus on driving with your heels and not have to worry about leaning too far forward!

freebirdjones

I am BAD... I am solo at the gym so I use that smith rack you all HATE. It allows me to "sit back in that chair" when doing squats, head high and chest out and my knees never go over my toes. I don't have to worry about falling back or walking it back into the rack solo. So everyone on mfp will tell you it's evil and it's BAD but for now i's working for me. Also I am only 2 months in and as my core strength, leg strength well all over strength gets better I may be able to walk away fom the smith, but for now it's a good spotter.

Fit_French

I am BAD... I am solo at the gym so I use that smith rack you all HATE. It allows me to "sit back in that chair" when doing squats, head high and chest out and my knees never go over my toes. I don't have to worry about falling back or walking it back into the rack solo. So everyone on mfp will tell you it's evil and it's BAD but for now i's working for me. Also I am only 2 months in and as my core strength, leg strength well all over strength gets better I may be able to walk away fom the smith, but for now it's a good spotter.

thats the thing, no squat rack and no spotters so its either the smith machine or dumbbell squats.I just feel like the smith machine "assists"me to much and don't have to use core muscles

StaticEntropy

Ditch the SM. Do front squats, which will work your quads more than your hams and glutes, but is still a much better and safer alternative to the SM squat. Balance out the posterior chain by doing deadlifts, glute-ham raise and/or good mornings.

rick_po

I'm curious to know where the "don't let your knees go past your toes" myth got started. A majority of people will have their knees past their toes on a deep squat. Maybe even a vast majority. The only way to keep your knees before you toes is to sit way too far back, or just do half-squats or something.

freebirdjones

I'm curious to know where the "don't let your knees go past your toes" myth got started. A majority of people will have their knees past their toes on a deep squat. Maybe even a vast majority. The only way to keep your knees before you toes is to sit way too far back, or just do half-squats or something.

lol my personal trainer told me that. Guess he was not a good one. He just got me started and Im flying solo now.

I think I have a few silly fears I need to get over before I use the squat rack. Like falling over or not being able to push back up on the last rep, the sith rack you can just flick your fingers and its in a rung. You also have to walk back and fourth with th weight. I just need to suck it up and hope I don't end up on youtube. :P

If I don't have to worry about my knees now frigin great! there are lots of myths out there we all just slowly learn differently and then don't live with that myth anymore. I remember hearing low cal, lean protein and lots of cardio and tummy targeting videos all week to lose weight, spot tone your trouble areas, and don't eat at night. mfp is slowly helping me learn my way out of 80's fitness myths so bear with us. I can't believe looking at that photo, my personal trainer went to university for that.

ttippie2000

I suggest watching squat form videos to help you.

Go to Youtube and search for "So You Think You Can Squat"

/agree
The squat is a super technical lift and Dave Tate is an excellent teacher, one of the country's top 2 power lifting coaches. (And he rambles a lot less than Louis Simmons.)

Regarding the post elsewhere in this thread about: "don't let your knees go past your toes" being a myth. I suppose you could be right, but for what I'm doing you're also wrong. You may think it's a myth if you only squat up to 225, and to be sure you won't need the technique that's required at higher weight levels. If however you squat anything over 500 lbs you will live by that little myth, along with a bunch of other ones to boot. For example: you have to learn to manage your intra abdominal pressure, to pull in on the bar to tense your posterior deltoids (and for God's sake, don't place the bar on your neck), to manage your oxygen depletion rate, to minimize the time & steps you take from your unrack position to your lift, to lean back (it pulls you forward at high weights) and to push from your heels, never your toes.

freebirdjones

I suggest watching squat form videos to help you.

Go to Youtube and search for "So You Think You Can Squat"

/agree
The squat is a super technical lift and Dave Tate is an excellent teacher, one of the country's top 2 power lifting coaches. (And he rambles a lot less than Louis Simmons.)

Regarding the post elsewhere in this thread about: "don't let your knees go past your toes" being a myth. I suppose you could be right, but for what I'm doing you're also wrong. You may think it's a myth if you only squat up to 225, and to be sure you won't need the technique that's required at higher weight levels. If however you squat anything over 500 lbs you will live by that little myth, along with a bunch of other ones to boot. For example: you have to learn to manage your intra abdominal pressure, to pull in on the bar to tense your posterior deltoids (and for God's sake, don't place the bar on your neck), to manage your oxygen depletion rate, to minimize the time & steps you take from your unrack position to your lift, to lean back (it pulls you forward at high weights) and to push from your heels, never your toes.

ty for this, I'm going to watch it later! I am being pulled in all directions from the smith is okay from personal trainers at Goodlife to videos from Golds Gym, and a handful of ppl on here who hate it. The knees over the toes too, everyone on here argues, but everyone whos told me it doesn't matter is on mfp, the ones say it matters are videos, pros and trainers. I am so lost...

holothuroidea

Okay so I just got back from the gym. We were working on front squats. My coach told me that if I had the ankle flexibility that I should move my hips forward and push my knees out farther over my toes because I was having trouble keeping my chest up.

Seriously, where does this "knees can't go past toes" thing come from?

JoRocka

I am BAD... I am solo at the gym so I use that smith rack you all HATE. It allows me to "sit back in that chair" when doing squats, head high and chest out and my knees never go over my toes. I don't have to worry about falling back or walking it back into the rack solo. So everyone on mfp will tell you it's evil and it's BAD but for now i's working for me. Also I am only 2 months in and as my core strength, leg strength well all over strength gets better I may be able to walk away fom the smith, but for now it's a good spotter.

thats the thing, no squat rack and no spotters so its either the smith machine or dumbbell squats.I just feel like the smith machine "assists"me to much and don't have to use core muscles

use a barbell- you can power clean it over head and put it on your shoulders... it's not a big deal.

don't use the smith machine... but if you are seriously having issues with the knees/toes- you should practice with a broom first. Make sure the bar isn't to high on your back- your shoulders should be back - chest open- so the bar sits on the meat not on the bone.

Practice practice practice before you ever bother with weight.

and you don't need a spotter to squat. That's rubbish. You need a spotter when you are pushing failure- learning how to lift on your own is a worth while talent.

rick_po

Regarding the post elsewhere in this thread about: "don't let your knees go past your toes" being a myth. I suppose you could be right, but for what I'm doing you're also wrong. You may think it's a myth if you only squat up to 225, and to be sure you won't need the technique that's required at higher weight levels. If however you squat anything over 500 lbs you will live by that little myth, along with a bunch of other ones to boot.

I'm sure you're right about this, and I understand everything except the knees-over-toes thing. But I'm kind of at a loss ... how in the heck do you get below horizontal on a squat and keep your knees in front of your toes? Do you have to develop super-flexible hips or something? Or is the bar not directly above your feet? And if it's not directly above your feet, how do you keep from losing your balance? The geometry seems impossible to me.

freebirdjones

I am BAD... I am solo at the gym so I use that smith rack you all HATE. It allows me to "sit back in that chair" when doing squats, head high and chest out and my knees never go over my toes. I don't have to worry about falling back or walking it back into the rack solo. So everyone on mfp will tell you it's evil and it's BAD but for now i's working for me. Also I am only 2 months in and as my core strength, leg strength well all over strength gets better I may be able to walk away fom the smith, but for now it's a good spotter.

thats the thing, no squat rack and no spotters so its either the smith machine or dumbbell squats.I just feel like the smith machine "assists"me to much and don't have to use core muscles

use a barbell- you can power clean it over head and put it on your shoulders... it's not a big deal.

don't use the smith machine... but if you are seriously having issues with the knees/toes- you should practice with a broom first. Make sure the bar isn't to high on your back- your shoulders should be back - chest open- so the bar sits on the meat not on the bone.

Practice practice practice before you ever bother with weight.

and you don't need a spotter to squat. That's rubbish. You need a spotter when you are pushing failure- learning how to lift on your own is a worth while talent.

I'm not having trouble with form, or so I didn't think I did. I was trying to give advice my personal trainer gave me and got called out on not putting your knees over your toes and using a smith machine. I have only been doing this fitness thing for almost two months and the weight I can squat I cant lift with my arms I don't think, especially without anyone around. Obviously I am the wrong person to give advice, because I like having a gym partner when trying something new. I am just learning to have faith in myself, I spent my life shy and sometimes when all the pro lifters are in the gym I don't want to try to learn deadlifts by myself without a youtube video in front of me to make sure Im doing it right or to move to a squat rack. A friend can check you out, give you advice, etc. I felt comfortable in the smith rack only being 2 months in and that's what personal trainer told me was good. I've watched tons of videos on squats and they all said to watch your knees, keep facing forward & chin up. So Im out, don't reply to me, I did not create a thread, OP did and I never should have replied.

holothuroidea

Regarding the post elsewhere in this thread about: "don't let your knees go past your toes" being a myth. I suppose you could be right, but for what I'm doing you're also wrong. You may think it's a myth if you only squat up to 225, and to be sure you won't need the technique that's required at higher weight levels. If however you squat anything over 500 lbs you will live by that little myth, along with a bunch of other ones to boot.

I'm sure you're right about this, and I understand everything except the knees-over-toes thing. But I'm kind of at a loss ... how in the heck do you get below horizontal on a squat and keep your knees in front of your toes? Do you have to develop super-flexible hips or something? Or is the bar not directly above your feet? And if it's not directly above your feet, how do you keep from losing your balance? The geometry seems impossible to me.

If you see babies or very young children squat, they manage to keep their knees behind their toes, their butts go almost all the way to the ground, and their heads/chests (where the "weight" is for them) is definitely centered over the foot.

I do imagine it's all about flexibility, and I know that I haven't been able to squat that well since I was 2 years old.

Marcia661

Bump

holothuroidea

use a barbell- you can power clean it over head and put it on your shoulders... it's not a big deal.

don't use the smith machine... but if you are seriously having issues with the knees/toes- you should practice with a broom first. Make sure the bar isn't to high on your back- your shoulders should be back - chest open- so the bar sits on the meat not on the bone.

Practice practice practice before you ever bother with weight.

and you don't need a spotter to squat. That's rubbish. You need a spotter when you are pushing failure- learning how to lift on your own is a worth while talent.

I'm not having trouble with form, or so I didn't think I did. I was trying to give advice my personal trainer gave me and got called out on not putting your knees over your toes and using a smith machine. I have only been doing this fitness thing for almost two months and the weight I can squat I cant lift with my arms I don't think, especially without anyone around. Obviously I am the wrong person to give advice, because I like having a gym partner when trying something new. I am just learning to have faith in myself, I spent my life shy and sometimes when all the pro lifters are in the gym I don't want to try to learn deadlifts by myself without a youtube video in front of me to make sure Im doing it right or to move to a squat rack. A friend can check you out, give you advice, etc. I felt comfortable in the smith rack only being 2 months in and that's what personal trainer told me was good. I've watched tons of videos on squats and they all said to watch your knees, keep facing forward & chin up. So Im out, don't reply to me, I did not create a thread, OP did and I never should have replied.

I wouldn't worry about that person's post. I stopped reading at "power clean it over head." :P

ETA: And you're right, any weight you'd be able to press or jerk over head is not going to be heavy enough for back squats. Doing 5x5, I push jerk 45lbs and back squat 75lbs. There's no way I could get 75lbs over my head even once.

freebirdjones

use a barbell- you can power clean it over head and put it on your shoulders... it's not a big deal.

don't use the smith machine... but if you are seriously having issues with the knees/toes- you should practice with a broom first. Make sure the bar isn't to high on your back- your shoulders should be back - chest open- so the bar sits on the meat not on the bone.

Practice practice practice before you ever bother with weight.

and you don't need a spotter to squat. That's rubbish. You need a spotter when you are pushing failure- learning how to lift on your own is a worth while talent.

I'm not having trouble with form, or so I didn't think I did. I was trying to give advice my personal trainer gave me and got called out on not putting your knees over your toes and using a smith machine. I have only been doing this fitness thing for almost two months and the weight I can squat I cant lift with my arms I don't think, especially without anyone around. Obviously I am the wrong person to give advice, because I like having a gym partner when trying something new. I am just learning to have faith in myself, I spent my life shy and sometimes when all the pro lifters are in the gym I don't want to try to learn deadlifts by myself without a youtube video in front of me to make sure Im doing it right or to move to a squat rack. A friend can check you out, give you advice, etc. I felt comfortable in the smith rack only being 2 months in and that's what personal trainer told me was good. I've watched tons of videos on squats and they all said to watch your knees, keep facing forward & chin up. So Im out, don't reply to me, I did not create a thread, OP did and I never should have replied.

I wouldn't worry about that person's post. I stopped reading at "power clean it over head." :P

okay because earlier I read someone on a different thread say if you can lift it over your head it must not be enough weight to squat. Which for me at my fitness level my legs can lift more than my arms right now. I also think my trainer started me on the smith until my core strength increased. When I signed up at the gym Id never in my life ran, jogged, lifted, notta, nothing ever. So any improvement was great! So now I'm doing a bit better with my core so if I can con a friend into being my support one time I'd like to get to the squat rack, I just get scared I'll fail before I do, lol don't want to drop it, or fall, or I don't even know what will happen, I bet nothing, I'm just crazy like that. But day by day as I become more fit I get more confident in my abilities. But I'm a newbie, shy and sensitive. These msg boards have toughened me up a bit tho, try to take some ppl with a grain of salt and also realize I need to suck it up & grow up ...

Edit: okay, yeah I thought so I cant lift it over my head yet LOL

holothuroidea

I edited that post and added that there's no way you'd be able to lift enough weight over your head to do a proper weight for a back squat.

I started on a rack, and not even the fancy ones you see at big gyms. I don't even know what a smith machine is. I've never felt unsafe, though. The weights are big rubber bumpers, they're meant to be dropped. If it's too heavy, you just let it go and it falls to the floor, no biggie.

I've never gone so heavy that I've felt like I needed to drop it, though, because I'm a newbie. There's been times at the end of my sets where my form was so off that I'd tip backwards a bit or couldn't get under the bar for a jerk, but I just caught my balance and it wasn't a problem.

It definitely helps having someone around, though.