Runner's knee?

sunglasses_and_ocean_waves

Not sure what to do here. I've got ONE run left on C25K. I've beaten shin splints, dealt with the worst allergy season in recent history, temps going from low 60s to 95 in one day the week I did the 20 minute runs .. etc With my last week at hand, now my knees are giving out =( Makes no sense as I was in good shape before c25k. In addition to weights, I speed walked up & down hills. All I can say is that I. Am. Not. Giving. Up. :explode:

Today's run started off with stiff knees, but I managed. At the end, when I walked, I could feel the pain coming back. I got in my car and cried. :blushing: The pain was radiating up the back of my legs (that part didn't last). I'm thinking maybe a day or 2 off, then a very light run and then do my last c25k run this weekend. I don't want to harm myself any further, but I want to finish this program. I'll continue running, but I'll do some light runs next week.

I think it may be a descent injury? On one of my last runs, I was feeling so good I started picking up speed on the down side of a hill. I probably didn't control myself well enough.

What do you guys think?

sammyneb

I would give it some rest and ice. Don't run for a couple of days, if you want to do some cardio get on an elipitical or bike (if that doesn't aggervate it) . Put you leg up and put some good ol' ice on it. Rest it up. Then get back out there, but I have found that most pains I have had running go away eventually
If it gets WORST then you might want to have it checked out. But don't give up!
I know when I run, the first mile or two my body is constantly throwing little pain signals up..my knee hurts, my calves hurt, my foot hurts, but once I settle into a groove all that goes away (well usually) and I can go for miles with out any real pain.

scottb81

In my experience, knee pain is usually caused by less than ideal running form and can be cleared up over time by correcting the running form.

Google, "Good Form Running".

sunglasses_and_ocean_waves

Thank you folks! I'm icing now and will check on better form.

wilsoje74

Do you take rest days between runs?

sunglasses_and_ocean_waves

Do you take rest days between runs?

Yes, from running. I usually lift on the off days. One day is rest (or just a really light workout). This just started 2 runs ago. I warm up, I cool down and stretch. I've never had knee problems before.

Thank you

timeasterday

Definitely check into good form. The Good Form Running class at the local running shop helped me a lot. Also try a foam roller massage on the IT band. And make sure to do some deep stretches in the hips & piriformis muscle (frees up the knees to move properly). But yeah, downhill is a killer on knees unless you take small steps, increase your cadence, and lean into the hill (letting gravity help you down). The natural tendency is to try to brake yourself and slow down - that's bad and your knees end up taking the impact.

sunglasses_and_ocean_waves

Thank you. I've been thinking a lot about piriformis & feel this is possible related. When I first started getting some decent runs, my butt would be sore which never happened with walking. I liked it though because (well not because I'm into sore buns) I felt I was hitting some muscles I hadn't hit before. But I think you peeps are right that this is about form. I was good about watching my form until last week when I started getting crrrrr-azy! OK not crazy, I was just super relaxed and happy, and I noticed I was picking up speed probably before I was ready. It was fun though!

You guys/ladies are awesome!

crissyniko

I took off 2 weeks and did hip stretches...picked up where I left off after i no longer felt pain!

bluefox9er

its hard to say with knee injuries exactly the extent of them, but rest and ice will help.

also, do you stretch after each run? make stretching a routine that is PART of the run...and congratulations on reaching the end of c25k!

hope you have a very long and injury free running career!

gailmelanie

If you haven't already, make sure you have new, high-quality running shoes. You might want to visit a podiatrist to see if orthotics could help. If your feet have problems, that affects your mechanics and everything above your feet.

Doodlewhopper

Not sure what to do here. I've got ONE run left on C25K. I've beaten shin splints, dealt with the worst allergy season in recent history, temps going from low 60s to 95 in one day the week I did the 20 minute runs .. etc With my last week at hand, now my knees are giving out =( Makes no sense as I was in good shape before c25k. In addition to weights, I speed walked up & down hills. All I can say is that I. Am. Not. Giving. Up. :explode:

Today's run started off with stiff knees, but I managed. At the end, when I walked, I could feel the pain coming back. I got in my car and cried. :blushing: The pain was radiating up the back of my legs (that part didn't last). I'm thinking maybe a day or 2 off, then a very light run and then do my last c25k run this weekend. I don't want to harm myself any further, but I want to finish this program. I'll continue running, but I'll do some light runs next week.

I think it may be a descent injury? On one of my last runs, I was feeling so good I started picking up speed on the down side of a hill. I probably didn't control myself well enough.

What do you guys think?

I think Scott and Timeasterday are spot on. All I can add is to caution you about not ignoring the value of rest. You can turn a minor problem into a bigger one if youre not careful. Forget about the minor goal of finishing the C25K and focus on the major issue of your future as a runner.

actlc

In my experience, knee pain is usually caused by less than ideal running form and can be cleared up over time by correcting the running form.

Google, "Good Form Running".

this. Plus you may be running too fast downhill. That probably gives too much impact on your knees on each landing and resulted in knee pain. Slow down or minimize downhill.

I had minor knee pain (not as bad as yours) for running too fast downhill. I then purposely slowed down running downhill and changed my course with more gentle downhill. My knees do not complain anymore.

sunglasses_and_ocean_waves

Thank you all so much! I swear runners are the nicest people! What is it about running???











(cant freaking wait to get out there again. But I'll rest I'll rest!!!)

blackcloud13

I'll be "stealing" all this advice. I'm on a temporary break from running, hoping for my right knee to feel better. Weirdly, it hurts when I sit down - but is perfectly fine while I'm running!

Good luck with your recovery - I hope you are back on the road soon, completing your C25K and much more

carissa1284

It could be your IT Band. http://www.runnersworld.com/tag/iliotibial-band

http://www.runnersworld.com/tag/itbs

Its a ligament that is connected from your hip to your knee. It can feel like knee pain, but really its the IT Band.

BrianSharpe

another thing to consider is that a great deal of knee pain is, as Scott pointed out, a result of poor form; often poor form is, at least in part, due to weak glute & hips and/or weak core. Check out the exercises shown on runnersworld.com for glutes & hips....you may be pleasantly surprised.

Good luck & speedy recovery.

CarsonRuns

In my experience, knee pain is usually caused by less than ideal running form and can be cleared up over time by correcting the running form.

Google, "Good Form Running".

this. Plus you may be running too fast downhill. That probably gives too much impact on your knees on each landing and resulted in knee pain. Slow down or minimize downhill.

I had minor knee pain (not as bad as yours) for running too fast downhill. I then purposely slowed down running downhill and changed my course with more gentle downhill. My knees do not complain anymore.

Actually, attempting to slow down or brake on downhill can cause a greater impact on the knee joint. On very steep descents, you need to either fly down them or walk. If you are not used to running fast, then I suggest walking. The idea is to make sure that, as with all good running form, that the foot lands under your torso. This gets more difficult the steeper the downhill. The only way to get that foot landing under you is to go faster. I also concentrate on getting a higher heel kick in the back (think heel to buttocks). This forces the leg swing to come through higher and allows the foot to land later, which places it more under the torso.

Now, with all that being said, running downhill will shred your quads. In order to get good at running downhill you have to run downhill. I know, crazy talk. You can help by making sure that you do quad exercises, either body weight or with weights. If you do this, don't ignore the hammies. You have to stay in balance.

Lastly, as has been mentioned before, make sure you are in the right shoe. If you haven't already done so, go get fitted at a running store.

Best of luck!


ETA: Someone mentioned this earlier too. There are two basic types of running related knee "injuries", both of which can get rectified with strengthening exercises. IT Band Syndrome, which manifests itself as pain on the lower, outside of the knee and runner's knee which is usually felt around or behind the knee cap, most of the time about the knee. The former can be addressed with hip and core exercises, the latter with quad strengthening.

sunglasses_and_ocean_waves

Thank you so much everyone! :flowerforyou: You're all so thoughtful with your responses. I do have a pretty muscular butt, core & thighs, but I could always use more strength.

I did fly down that freaking hill. I confess! After all those weeks of slow pace slow place, 100 year old ladies passing me, I wanted to fly. It just felt so freaking good.

Interestingly, after a few minutes running (put putting, really) this am, the pain/tightness/discomfort subsided (or I just didn't care). It came back with a vengeance during the cool down walk. Just a little sore tonight but will likely feel it in bed again tonight when I roll onto my stomach and my knees hit the mattress. :noway:

I do think I've let my form slide. :grumble:

Thank you all!

actlc

Actually, attempting to slow down or brake on downhill can cause a greater impact on the knee joint. On very steep descents, you need to either fly down them or walk. If you are not used to running fast, then I suggest walking. The idea is to make sure that, as with all good running form, that the foot lands under your torso. This gets more difficult the steeper the downhill. The only way to get that foot landing under you is to go faster. I also concentrate on getting a higher heel kick in the back (think heel to buttocks). This forces the leg swing to come through higher and allows the foot to land later, which places it more under the torso.

Now, with all that being said, running downhill will shred your quads. In order to get good at running downhill you have to run downhill. I know, crazy talk. You can help by making sure that you do quad exercises, either body weight or with weights. If you do this, don't ignore the hammies. You have to stay in balance.

Lastly, as has been mentioned before, make sure you are in the right shoe. If you haven't already done so, go get fitted at a running store.

Best of luck!


ETA: Someone mentioned this earlier too. There are two basic types of running related knee "injuries", both of which can get rectified with strengthening exercises. IT Band Syndrome, which manifests itself as pain on the lower, outside of the knee and runner's knee which is usually felt around or behind the knee cap, most of the time about the knee. The former can be addressed with hip and core exercises, the latter with quad strengthening.

Hi Carson, great to have advise from experienced runner.
My pace is not fast yet. So when I slow down, my stride length becomes really short that landing under my torso is not a problem.
I definitely will keep that in mind when my speed improves.
But my question is, if I need to run even faster downhill, would I risk falling down the hill trying to land under my torso while running fast? thanks

faceoff4

I have had lots of issues with knee pain from running. Now out of habit I ice them every night regardless of if they are hurting or swollen. As most pointed out, good form will help as will be to find the right shoes. I also try to find softer surfaces for running when I can and avoid hard streets if at all possible. But hopefully the ice packs are helping. These are the ice packs I use:

Tru-Fit Ice/Heat Back/Shoulder Wrap With Gel Pack Blue One Size Fits All

They work great for the knees as you can get them as tight as you want but not experience the burn that comes from some ice packs and def wont have water run off from real ice. Good luck!

CarsonRuns

Actually, attempting to slow down or brake on downhill can cause a greater impact on the knee joint. On very steep descents, you need to either fly down them or walk. If you are not used to running fast, then I suggest walking. The idea is to make sure that, as with all good running form, that the foot lands under your torso. This gets more difficult the steeper the downhill. The only way to get that foot landing under you is to go faster. I also concentrate on getting a higher heel kick in the back (think heel to buttocks). This forces the leg swing to come through higher and allows the foot to land later, which places it more under the torso.

Now, with all that being said, running downhill will shred your quads. In order to get good at running downhill you have to run downhill. I know, crazy talk. You can help by making sure that you do quad exercises, either body weight or with weights. If you do this, don't ignore the hammies. You have to stay in balance.

Lastly, as has been mentioned before, make sure you are in the right shoe. If you haven't already done so, go get fitted at a running store.

Best of luck!


ETA: Someone mentioned this earlier too. There are two basic types of running related knee "injuries", both of which can get rectified with strengthening exercises. IT Band Syndrome, which manifests itself as pain on the lower, outside of the knee and runner's knee which is usually felt around or behind the knee cap, most of the time about the knee. The former can be addressed with hip and core exercises, the latter with quad strengthening.

Hi Carson, great to have advise from experienced runner.
My pace is not fast yet. So when I slow down, my stride length becomes really short that landing under my torso is not a problem.
I definitely will keep that in mind when my speed improves.
But my question is, if I need to run even faster downhill, would I risk falling down the hill trying to land under my torso while running fast? thanks

Yes, there is that risk. That is where you have to decide if you feel out of control. Another method is to hop/skip down the steeper sections. This is commonly employed by trail runners on steep downhill sections.

TonysMiss

I was going to give my 2 cents but it looks like you have lots of FANTASTIC advice!! I did the C25K myself about 3-4 years ago and it was awesome!! Signed up for all kinds of runs and had a great time. I always had issues with my left knee but eventually I started wearing patella bands. As of VERY recently I have not run much. Dr. had told me I needed to do PT and I just don't have the time or the resources. I'm now doing the elliptical but we'll see how long that lasts. There's nothing like a good run outdoors!!! Love the feeling!
Hope you find your way with this running thing.

sunglasses_and_ocean_waves

Thank you all

There's fantastic info in this thread. I hope it helps others as well!

waskier

Carson knows what he is talking about, so I'm glad you are listening to him! Only a couple of things I would add. Another way to think of your foot strike is to try to land lightly on your forefoot. Heel striking will kill your knees going downhill and is what happens if you extend your foot out in front of your torso.

If your knees are hurting but you absolutely insist on running, try to get on a treadmill. They will cushion your strides and are more forgiving than pavement. I have horrible knees and it is what I do when things aren't going too well.

Lastly, ice (I prefer 20 minutes on, 20 minutes off), don't be afraid of taking some Aleve or Advil, and get your knees/legs above your torso. If you do yoga, shoulder stand is great. If not, lay on the floor on your back and put your legs up on a chair or coach and just relax.

Good luck!

sunglasses_and_ocean_waves

Thank you so much! The icing and advil really helped last night.

I make sure I land on the front/middle of my foot, but I wonder if coming down that hill if I wasn't paying attention. Hmmmmmm. Quite possible.

I noticed that coming down the stairs is harder than going up, so I'm guess that probably backs up this being a descent injury (am I spelling that right?). Bad form going downhill & getting way ahead of myself with speed. Damn that was fun tho.

I'm going to bookmark this thread because there's such great info here. Thanks again everyone! :drinker: <~~~~ That's coffee. :bigsmile:

jane_bee

I agree that the foam roller is super helpful! Also, knees are complicated. I'd see a doctor and see if he/she recommends physical therapy. I ignored my crunchy knees for years and by the time I finally went to the doctor I had developed bone spurs on the backs of my knee caps. Listen to your body!

sunglasses_and_ocean_waves

I wanted to come back and update because I appreciate the advice, and I'm hoping this thread will help someone else some day.

I ran 5K yesterday. =D It was an amazing moment. I did a fist pump right there on the trail when my app beeped and told me to take my cool down walk. Cool thing about runners is this ... no one seemed to think I was odd for the spontaneous fist pump. Those around me just smiled.

I'll look back through to see who suggested it, but someone said to watch not to hit the heel as you come down a hill, and that's exactly what I realized I was doing. I also realized that I was leaning forward too much on the flatter surfaces. I corrected that. So yesterday I paid much better attention to form and whilst I was sore last night, I was not in pain. Went to sleep with a huge smile on my face.

It's been over a year since my breast cancer diagnosis. It's been nearly impossible to get back to myself. I never stopped working out, but I stopped feeling like an athlete. Finally I no longer feel like a cancer patient. I am an athlete again thanks to the encouragement of other runners.

I'll pay it forward but probably not here. Not right now. There's a tremendous amount of goodness on this site, but there's a group of people who I'd rather not be around.

TedStout

Congrats and well done! Awesome awesome.

shannashannabobana

lean into the hill (letting gravity help you down). The natural tendency is to try to brake yourself and slow down - that's bad and your knees end up taking the impact.

I"m in a 5k training group and my instructor told us this. It's amazing what a difference it makes! You can do it without going crazy fast.

I ran 5K yesterday. =D It was an amazing moment.

Congratulations!!! Mine is scheduled for July. And will be mostly downhill