CICO????

2

Replies

  • rjmudlax13
    rjmudlax13 Posts: 900 Member
    max8987 wrote: »
    again......


    "The caloric intake for all the mice was the same."

    OK. What about the Calorie expenditure? How did they control that?
  • Angel_Grove_
    Angel_Grove_ Posts: 205 Member
    Without being able to read the actual study, my thoughts:

    How did they ensure they were eating the same amount of calories? It's still CICO because they eat more calories if they get to eat whenever!
    The same way we determine the amount of calories we are eating - weigh/measure the food based on calorie density and provide the appropriate amount and/or determine the actual number of calories consumed after the fact. If there was ever food left over, a good scientist (and these guys are published/peer-reviewed) would weigh/measure the amount left over and record the calories actually consumed. If there were any difference in actual intake between the restricted/non-restricted groups, I'm guessing it wasn't statistically significant since they're making the claim that intake was the same.

    "Salk scientists fed groups of adult males one of four diets: high-fat, high-fructose, high-fat and high-sucrose, and regular mouse kibble. Some of the mice in each dietary group were allowed to eat whenever they wanted throughout their waking hours; others were restricted to feeding periods of nine, 12 or 15 hours. The caloric intake for all the mice was the same. "

    So, they controlled for the types of food being fed, because some of the mice on each diet were restricted to shortened eating times and some of the mice on each diet were not restricted. That the results show weight loss/lack of weight gain across all four diets for mice on restricted eating time frames, for one shows that (at least in mice) a calorie is a calorie is a calorie, but also that when (or for how long) they eat can impact weight loss/gain.

    How did they control for activity level?
    The linked article doesn't specify for this study, but for the previous study mentioned it does say the mice did not exercise. I would imagine that they were kept in pretty small quarters and that there wouldn't be much room for activity whether they had the inclination or not. I'd like to read the actual paper.

    We're not mice
    Nope, but it would certainly be interesting to see a human study. Of course, you could never completely control for activity levels in humans. But it sure would be interesting!

    Just my two cents. I'd really like to get my hands on a copy of this study. Hubs is going back to school in June - hoping his campus library has access.
  • SezxyStef
    SezxyStef Posts: 15,267 Member
    rjmudlax13 wrote: »
    max8987 wrote: »
    again......


    "The caloric intake for all the mice was the same."

    OK. What about the Calorie expenditure? How did they control that?

    duct tape
  • Mr_Knight
    Mr_Knight Posts: 9,532 Member
    There are human studies showing that intermittent and outright fasting increase the rate at which fat can be metabolized. The study's findings are consistent with that.
  • 3dogsrunning
    3dogsrunning Posts: 27,165 Member
    Mr_Knight wrote: »
    There are human studies showing that intermittent and outright fasting increase the rate at which fat can be metabolized. The study's findings are consistent with that.

    But the study said TEF made no difference in subjects fed a healthy diet.
  • Mr_Knight
    Mr_Knight Posts: 9,532 Member
    3dogsrunning wrote: »
    Mr_Knight wrote: »
    There are human studies showing that intermittent and outright fasting increase the rate at which fat can be metabolized. The study's findings are consistent with that.

    But the study said TEF made no difference in subjects fed a healthy diet.

    Sounds about right. "Healthy diet" in that context is going to result in a relatively tight range of macro ratios, so TEF should be fairly close between all subjects.
  • 3dogsrunning
    3dogsrunning Posts: 27,165 Member
    Mr_Knight wrote: »
    3dogsrunning wrote: »
    Mr_Knight wrote: »
    There are human studies showing that intermittent and outright fasting increase the rate at which fat can be metabolized. The study's findings are consistent with that.

    But the study said TEF made no difference in subjects fed a healthy diet.

    Sounds about right. "Healthy diet" in that context is going to result in a relatively tight range of macro ratios, so TEF should be fairly close between all subjects.

    Sorry that was supposed to be TRF. Thanks autocorrect. Time restricted feeding didn't matter in healthy individuals fed a healthy diet.
  • 4legsRbetterthan2
    4legsRbetterthan2 Posts: 19,528 Member
    From what I read I am just not convinced the calorie intake was the same for all the mice.
  • Mr_Knight
    Mr_Knight Posts: 9,532 Member
    edited May 2015
    3dogsrunning wrote: »
    Mr_Knight wrote: »
    3dogsrunning wrote: »
    Mr_Knight wrote: »
    There are human studies showing that intermittent and outright fasting increase the rate at which fat can be metabolized. The study's findings are consistent with that.

    But the study said TEF made no difference in subjects fed a healthy diet.

    Sounds about right. "Healthy diet" in that context is going to result in a relatively tight range of macro ratios, so TEF should be fairly close between all subjects.

    Sorry that was supposed to be TRF. Thanks autocorrect. Time restricted feeding didn't matter in healthy individuals fed a healthy diet.

    Yes, that's consistent as well, assuming "healthy individuals" means "relatively lean". As the body leans out, the rate at which stored fat can be accessed goes down. Since the effect from IF is a %age increase from baseline, drop the baseline far enough (ie, have a "healthy" body composition) and the effects from IF tend to disappear in the noise or - depending on how the fat is distributed (yep, that matters to, "lumpy" people lose slower!) - go to zero.

    (Perhaps more accurately stated - the changes become small enough that you need to look over a longer time period to find them)

    More than one factor at play... :smile:
  • FunkyTobias
    FunkyTobias Posts: 1,776 Member
    Mr_Knight wrote: »
    There are human studies showing that intermittent and outright fasting increase the rate at which fat can be metabolized. The study's findings are consistent with that.


    Citation needed
  • Zedeff
    Zedeff Posts: 651 Member
    FunkyTobias wrote: »
    Mr_Knight wrote: »
    There are human studies showing that intermittent and outright fasting increase the rate at which fat can be metabolized. The study's findings are consistent with that.


    Citation needed

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3292504
    "During exercise, glucose flux, whole-body carbohydrate oxidation, and the rate of muscle glycogen utilization were significantly lower during the fast."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8238506
    "These results demonstrate that the mobilization of adipose tissue triglycerides increases markedly between 18 and 24 h of fasting in young adult men."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3536834
    "Fat mobilization and utilization appeared to be greater in the fasted trial as evidenced by higher plasma concentrations of free fatty acids, glycerol, and beta-hydroxybutyrate as well as lower respiratory exchange ratio in the fasted trial during the first 30 min of exercise."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23582559
    "Recent experimental studies have elucidated some of the metabolic mechanisms involved with IF. Animal models have shown positive changes in glucose (lower plasma glucose and insulin levels) and in lipid metabolism (reduced visceral fat tissue and increased plasma adiponectin level), and an increased resistance to stress."
  • max8987
    max8987 Posts: 6 Member
    Zedeff wrote: »
    FunkyTobias wrote: »
    Mr_Knight wrote: »
    There are human studies showing that intermittent and outright fasting increase the rate at which fat can be metabolized. The study's findings are consistent with that.


    Citation needed

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3292504
    "During exercise, glucose flux, whole-body carbohydrate oxidation, and the rate of muscle glycogen utilization were significantly lower during the fast."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8238506
    "These results demonstrate that the mobilization of adipose tissue triglycerides increases markedly between 18 and 24 h of fasting in young adult men."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3536834
    "Fat mobilization and utilization appeared to be greater in the fasted trial as evidenced by higher plasma concentrations of free fatty acids, glycerol, and beta-hydroxybutyrate as well as lower respiratory exchange ratio in the fasted trial during the first 30 min of exercise."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23582559
    "Recent experimental studies have elucidated some of the metabolic mechanisms involved with IF. Animal models have shown positive changes in glucose (lower plasma glucose and insulin levels) and in lipid metabolism (reduced visceral fat tissue and increased plasma adiponectin level), and an increased resistance to stress."

    woohoo!!
  • jaga13
    jaga13 Posts: 1,149 Member
    For years I've been eating during a 9 hour window (from around 8am-5pm. Not to lose weight, but that's just how my schedule has been for many years). I never lost a pound until I actually created a calorie deficit.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,860 Member
    Woohoo? Is this some new IF evangelism?

    Weird.
  • ndj1979
    ndj1979 Posts: 29,136 Member
    Zedeff wrote: »
    FunkyTobias wrote: »
    Mr_Knight wrote: »
    There are human studies showing that intermittent and outright fasting increase the rate at which fat can be metabolized. The study's findings are consistent with that.


    Citation needed

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3292504
    "During exercise, glucose flux, whole-body carbohydrate oxidation, and the rate of muscle glycogen utilization were significantly lower during the fast."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8238506
    "These results demonstrate that the mobilization of adipose tissue triglycerides increases markedly between 18 and 24 h of fasting in young adult men."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3536834
    "Fat mobilization and utilization appeared to be greater in the fasted trial as evidenced by higher plasma concentrations of free fatty acids, glycerol, and beta-hydroxybutyrate as well as lower respiratory exchange ratio in the fasted trial during the first 30 min of exercise."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23582559
    "Recent experimental studies have elucidated some of the metabolic mechanisms involved with IF. Animal models have shown positive changes in glucose (lower plasma glucose and insulin levels) and in lipid metabolism (reduced visceral fat tissue and increased plasma adiponectin level), and an increased resistance to stress."

    first study has a sample size of eight men, really?

    second study is only six young men ..

    I stopped there..
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,860 Member
    Mr_Knight wrote: »
    3dogsrunning wrote: »
    Mr_Knight wrote: »
    3dogsrunning wrote: »
    Mr_Knight wrote: »
    There are human studies showing that intermittent and outright fasting increase the rate at which fat can be metabolized. The study's findings are consistent with that.

    But the study said TEF made no difference in subjects fed a healthy diet.

    Sounds about right. "Healthy diet" in that context is going to result in a relatively tight range of macro ratios, so TEF should be fairly close between all subjects.

    Sorry that was supposed to be TRF. Thanks autocorrect. Time restricted feeding didn't matter in healthy individuals fed a healthy diet.

    Yes, that's consistent as well, assuming "healthy individuals" means "relatively lean". As the body leans out, the rate at which stored fat can be accessed goes down. Since the effect from IF is a %age increase from baseline, drop the baseline far enough (ie, have a "healthy" body composition) and the effects from IF tend to disappear in the noise or - depending on how the fat is distributed (yep, that matters to, "lumpy" people lose slower!) - go to zero.

    (Perhaps more accurately stated - the changes become small enough that you need to look over a longer time period to find them)

    More than one factor at play... :smile:

    It also doesn't seem to have mattered for the mice on the low fat/high fructose and the normal chow diets. Just those on the high sugar and high fat diets.

    So even if the effect is the same in humans, it seems as if it's not as likely to matter at all if you aren't obese and if you eat a healthy (and not high sugar or fat) diet.
  • max8987
    max8987 Posts: 6 Member
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    Woohoo? Is this some new IF evangelism?

    Weird.

    hhahaah. cute cat!!
  • yopeeps025
    yopeeps025 Posts: 8,680 Member
    max8987 wrote: »
    Zedeff wrote: »
    FunkyTobias wrote: »
    Mr_Knight wrote: »
    There are human studies showing that intermittent and outright fasting increase the rate at which fat can be metabolized. The study's findings are consistent with that.


    Citation needed

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3292504
    "During exercise, glucose flux, whole-body carbohydrate oxidation, and the rate of muscle glycogen utilization were significantly lower during the fast."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8238506
    "These results demonstrate that the mobilization of adipose tissue triglycerides increases markedly between 18 and 24 h of fasting in young adult men."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3536834
    "Fat mobilization and utilization appeared to be greater in the fasted trial as evidenced by higher plasma concentrations of free fatty acids, glycerol, and beta-hydroxybutyrate as well as lower respiratory exchange ratio in the fasted trial during the first 30 min of exercise."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23582559
    "Recent experimental studies have elucidated some of the metabolic mechanisms involved with IF. Animal models have shown positive changes in glucose (lower plasma glucose and insulin levels) and in lipid metabolism (reduced visceral fat tissue and increased plasma adiponectin level), and an increased resistance to stress."

    woohoo!!

    I am going to assume that you read none of those links?
  • ndj1979
    ndj1979 Posts: 29,136 Member
    Zedeff wrote: »
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    Zedeff wrote: »
    FunkyTobias wrote: »
    Mr_Knight wrote: »
    There are human studies showing that intermittent and outright fasting increase the rate at which fat can be metabolized. The study's findings are consistent with that.


    Citation needed

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3292504
    "During exercise, glucose flux, whole-body carbohydrate oxidation, and the rate of muscle glycogen utilization were significantly lower during the fast."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8238506
    "These results demonstrate that the mobilization of adipose tissue triglycerides increases markedly between 18 and 24 h of fasting in young adult men."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3536834
    "Fat mobilization and utilization appeared to be greater in the fasted trial as evidenced by higher plasma concentrations of free fatty acids, glycerol, and beta-hydroxybutyrate as well as lower respiratory exchange ratio in the fasted trial during the first 30 min of exercise."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23582559
    "Recent experimental studies have elucidated some of the metabolic mechanisms involved with IF. Animal models have shown positive changes in glucose (lower plasma glucose and insulin levels) and in lipid metabolism (reduced visceral fat tissue and increased plasma adiponectin level), and an increased resistance to stress."

    first study has a sample size of eight men, really?

    second study is only six young men ..

    I stopped there..

    I'm not your teacher; its not my job to educate you and I don't give a rat's *kitten* if I convince you of anything. I posted links of convenience (ie. the first papers that showed up in my pubmed search) as evidence that evidence exists, not as examples of the world's greatest studies. If I wanted to do a systematic literature review - a task so arduous that the results themselves are publishable in peer-reviewed journals - I certainly wouldn't be sharing the results with the MFP community, I'd be submitting it to a journal for publication under my own identity. Incidentally, the final link IS a review article which describes the results of multiple studies.

    Given, however, that you've never done any scientific studies in your life and likely have no training in medical science, I doubt your ability to critically appraise medical literature of any quality.

    damn, you mad bro????

    Just saying the sample size in the first two studies are ridiculously small. Fact.
  • Azexas
    Azexas Posts: 4,334 Member
    edited May 2015
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    Zedeff wrote: »
    FunkyTobias wrote: »
    Mr_Knight wrote: »
    There are human studies showing that intermittent and outright fasting increase the rate at which fat can be metabolized. The study's findings are consistent with that.


    Citation needed

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3292504
    "During exercise, glucose flux, whole-body carbohydrate oxidation, and the rate of muscle glycogen utilization were significantly lower during the fast."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8238506
    "These results demonstrate that the mobilization of adipose tissue triglycerides increases markedly between 18 and 24 h of fasting in young adult men."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3536834
    "Fat mobilization and utilization appeared to be greater in the fasted trial as evidenced by higher plasma concentrations of free fatty acids, glycerol, and beta-hydroxybutyrate as well as lower respiratory exchange ratio in the fasted trial during the first 30 min of exercise."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23582559
    "Recent experimental studies have elucidated some of the metabolic mechanisms involved with IF. Animal models have shown positive changes in glucose (lower plasma glucose and insulin levels) and in lipid metabolism (reduced visceral fat tissue and increased plasma adiponectin level), and an increased resistance to stress."

    first study has a sample size of eight men, really?

    second study is only six young men ..

    I stopped there..

    the third is nine males

    fourth doesn't give sample size but says
    Therefore, further clinical studies are essential to test the effectiveness of IF in preventing and controlling metabolic and cardiovascular diseases.
  • TimothyFish
    TimothyFish Posts: 4,925 Member
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    rjmudlax13 wrote: »
    max8987 wrote: »
    again......


    "The caloric intake for all the mice was the same."

    OK. What about the Calorie expenditure? How did they control that?

    duct tape

    Nice.
  • Zedeff
    Zedeff Posts: 651 Member
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    Zedeff wrote: »
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    Zedeff wrote: »
    FunkyTobias wrote: »
    Mr_Knight wrote: »
    There are human studies showing that intermittent and outright fasting increase the rate at which fat can be metabolized. The study's findings are consistent with that.


    Citation needed

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3292504
    "During exercise, glucose flux, whole-body carbohydrate oxidation, and the rate of muscle glycogen utilization were significantly lower during the fast."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8238506
    "These results demonstrate that the mobilization of adipose tissue triglycerides increases markedly between 18 and 24 h of fasting in young adult men."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3536834
    "Fat mobilization and utilization appeared to be greater in the fasted trial as evidenced by higher plasma concentrations of free fatty acids, glycerol, and beta-hydroxybutyrate as well as lower respiratory exchange ratio in the fasted trial during the first 30 min of exercise."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23582559
    "Recent experimental studies have elucidated some of the metabolic mechanisms involved with IF. Animal models have shown positive changes in glucose (lower plasma glucose and insulin levels) and in lipid metabolism (reduced visceral fat tissue and increased plasma adiponectin level), and an increased resistance to stress."

    first study has a sample size of eight men, really?

    second study is only six young men ..

    I stopped there..

    I'm not your teacher; its not my job to educate you and I don't give a rat's *kitten* if I convince you of anything. I posted links of convenience (ie. the first papers that showed up in my pubmed search) as evidence that evidence exists, not as examples of the world's greatest studies. If I wanted to do a systematic literature review - a task so arduous that the results themselves are publishable in peer-reviewed journals - I certainly wouldn't be sharing the results with the MFP community, I'd be submitting it to a journal for publication under my own identity. Incidentally, the final link IS a review article which describes the results of multiple studies.

    Given, however, that you've never done any scientific studies in your life and likely have no training in medical science, I doubt your ability to critically appraise medical literature of any quality.

    damn, you mad bro????

    Just saying the sample size in the first two studies are ridiculously small. Fact.

    Agreed. However, you are missing the point.

    A request was raised for evidence of evidence ("citation needed"). Evidence of evidence was provided.

    If you disagree, then I would suggest you find your own studies showing that fasting does not impact lipid metabolism. That position is not the default. Just because the evidence I linked isn't strong doesn't mean it's irrelevant. In fact, it's the strongest evidence provided yet in this discussion; anyone doubting it should put some effort into the substantiate their opinions with their own citations.

    In other words, put up or shut up.
  • ndj1979
    ndj1979 Posts: 29,136 Member
    Troutsy wrote: »
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    Zedeff wrote: »
    FunkyTobias wrote: »
    Mr_Knight wrote: »
    There are human studies showing that intermittent and outright fasting increase the rate at which fat can be metabolized. The study's findings are consistent with that.


    Citation needed

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3292504
    "During exercise, glucose flux, whole-body carbohydrate oxidation, and the rate of muscle glycogen utilization were significantly lower during the fast."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8238506
    "These results demonstrate that the mobilization of adipose tissue triglycerides increases markedly between 18 and 24 h of fasting in young adult men."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3536834
    "Fat mobilization and utilization appeared to be greater in the fasted trial as evidenced by higher plasma concentrations of free fatty acids, glycerol, and beta-hydroxybutyrate as well as lower respiratory exchange ratio in the fasted trial during the first 30 min of exercise."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23582559
    "Recent experimental studies have elucidated some of the metabolic mechanisms involved with IF. Animal models have shown positive changes in glucose (lower plasma glucose and insulin levels) and in lipid metabolism (reduced visceral fat tissue and increased plasma adiponectin level), and an increased resistance to stress."

    first study has a sample size of eight men, really?

    second study is only six young men ..

    I stopped there..

    the third is nine males

    fourth doesn't give sample size but says
    Therefore, further clinical studies are essential to test the effectiveness of IF in preventing and controlling metabolic and cardiovascular diseases.

    so three small sample sizes and one with inconclusive results and no sample size...

    interesting..
  • Zedeff
    Zedeff Posts: 651 Member
    edited May 2015
    And yet here you sit, with zero evidence rebutting those small studies, pretending you're an evidence-guided individual.
  • ndj1979
    ndj1979 Posts: 29,136 Member
    Zedeff wrote: »
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    Zedeff wrote: »
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    Zedeff wrote: »
    FunkyTobias wrote: »
    Mr_Knight wrote: »
    There are human studies showing that intermittent and outright fasting increase the rate at which fat can be metabolized. The study's findings are consistent with that.


    Citation needed

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3292504
    "During exercise, glucose flux, whole-body carbohydrate oxidation, and the rate of muscle glycogen utilization were significantly lower during the fast."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8238506
    "These results demonstrate that the mobilization of adipose tissue triglycerides increases markedly between 18 and 24 h of fasting in young adult men."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3536834
    "Fat mobilization and utilization appeared to be greater in the fasted trial as evidenced by higher plasma concentrations of free fatty acids, glycerol, and beta-hydroxybutyrate as well as lower respiratory exchange ratio in the fasted trial during the first 30 min of exercise."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23582559
    "Recent experimental studies have elucidated some of the metabolic mechanisms involved with IF. Animal models have shown positive changes in glucose (lower plasma glucose and insulin levels) and in lipid metabolism (reduced visceral fat tissue and increased plasma adiponectin level), and an increased resistance to stress."

    first study has a sample size of eight men, really?

    second study is only six young men ..

    I stopped there..

    I'm not your teacher; its not my job to educate you and I don't give a rat's *kitten* if I convince you of anything. I posted links of convenience (ie. the first papers that showed up in my pubmed search) as evidence that evidence exists, not as examples of the world's greatest studies. If I wanted to do a systematic literature review - a task so arduous that the results themselves are publishable in peer-reviewed journals - I certainly wouldn't be sharing the results with the MFP community, I'd be submitting it to a journal for publication under my own identity. Incidentally, the final link IS a review article which describes the results of multiple studies.

    Given, however, that you've never done any scientific studies in your life and likely have no training in medical science, I doubt your ability to critically appraise medical literature of any quality.

    damn, you mad bro????

    Just saying the sample size in the first two studies are ridiculously small. Fact.

    Agreed. However, you are missing the point.

    A request was raised for evidence of evidence ("citation needed"). Evidence of evidence was provided.

    If you disagree, then I would suggest you find your own studies showing that fasting does not impact lipid metabolism. That position is not the default. Just because the evidence I linked isn't strong doesn't mean it's irrelevant. In fact, it's the strongest evidence provided yet in this discussion; anyone doubting it should put some effort into the substantiate their opinions with their own citations.

    In other words, put up or shut up.

    I disagree with using a ridiculously small sample size. Never said anything about the actual study themselves, but if you are that insecure about them maybe you should did deeper and find some better ones.

  • ndj1979
    ndj1979 Posts: 29,136 Member
    Zedeff wrote: »
    And yet here you sit, with zero evidence rebutting those small studies, pretending you're an evidence-guided individual.

    my evidence is that they used a small sample size and are not reliable.

    and lunch is almost over, so I don't have time to browse studies, because I have a real job that requires my attention.

  • Zedeff
    Zedeff Posts: 651 Member
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    Troutsy wrote: »
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    Zedeff wrote: »
    FunkyTobias wrote: »
    Mr_Knight wrote: »
    There are human studies showing that intermittent and outright fasting increase the rate at which fat can be metabolized. The study's findings are consistent with that.


    Citation needed

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3292504
    "During exercise, glucose flux, whole-body carbohydrate oxidation, and the rate of muscle glycogen utilization were significantly lower during the fast."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8238506
    "These results demonstrate that the mobilization of adipose tissue triglycerides increases markedly between 18 and 24 h of fasting in young adult men."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3536834
    "Fat mobilization and utilization appeared to be greater in the fasted trial as evidenced by higher plasma concentrations of free fatty acids, glycerol, and beta-hydroxybutyrate as well as lower respiratory exchange ratio in the fasted trial during the first 30 min of exercise."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23582559
    "Recent experimental studies have elucidated some of the metabolic mechanisms involved with IF. Animal models have shown positive changes in glucose (lower plasma glucose and insulin levels) and in lipid metabolism (reduced visceral fat tissue and increased plasma adiponectin level), and an increased resistance to stress."

    first study has a sample size of eight men, really?

    second study is only six young men ..

    I stopped there..

    the third is nine males

    fourth doesn't give sample size but says
    Therefore, further clinical studies are essential to test the effectiveness of IF in preventing and controlling metabolic and cardiovascular diseases.

    so three small sample sizes and one with inconclusive results and no sample size...

    interesting..

    The 4th study is a review article, not a study. The fact that you don't even recognize this is evidence of your academic illiteracy, which I presupposed earlier.

    What is the point of having a discussion of evidence with someone who can't read scientific research?
  • yopeeps025
    yopeeps025 Posts: 8,680 Member
    Zedeff wrote: »
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    Zedeff wrote: »
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    Zedeff wrote: »
    FunkyTobias wrote: »
    Mr_Knight wrote: »
    There are human studies showing that intermittent and outright fasting increase the rate at which fat can be metabolized. The study's findings are consistent with that.


    Citation needed

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3292504
    "During exercise, glucose flux, whole-body carbohydrate oxidation, and the rate of muscle glycogen utilization were significantly lower during the fast."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8238506
    "These results demonstrate that the mobilization of adipose tissue triglycerides increases markedly between 18 and 24 h of fasting in young adult men."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3536834
    "Fat mobilization and utilization appeared to be greater in the fasted trial as evidenced by higher plasma concentrations of free fatty acids, glycerol, and beta-hydroxybutyrate as well as lower respiratory exchange ratio in the fasted trial during the first 30 min of exercise."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23582559
    "Recent experimental studies have elucidated some of the metabolic mechanisms involved with IF. Animal models have shown positive changes in glucose (lower plasma glucose and insulin levels) and in lipid metabolism (reduced visceral fat tissue and increased plasma adiponectin level), and an increased resistance to stress."

    first study has a sample size of eight men, really?

    second study is only six young men ..

    I stopped there..

    I'm not your teacher; its not my job to educate you and I don't give a rat's *kitten* if I convince you of anything. I posted links of convenience (ie. the first papers that showed up in my pubmed search) as evidence that evidence exists, not as examples of the world's greatest studies. If I wanted to do a systematic literature review - a task so arduous that the results themselves are publishable in peer-reviewed journals - I certainly wouldn't be sharing the results with the MFP community, I'd be submitting it to a journal for publication under my own identity. Incidentally, the final link IS a review article which describes the results of multiple studies.

    Given, however, that you've never done any scientific studies in your life and likely have no training in medical science, I doubt your ability to critically appraise medical literature of any quality.

    damn, you mad bro????

    Just saying the sample size in the first two studies are ridiculously small. Fact.

    Agreed. However, you are missing the point.

    A request was raised for evidence of evidence ("citation needed"). Evidence of evidence was provided.

    If you disagree, then I would suggest you find your own studies showing that fasting does not impact lipid metabolism. That position is not the default. Just because the evidence I linked isn't strong doesn't mean it's irrelevant. In fact, it's the strongest evidence provided yet in this discussion; anyone doubting it should put some effort into the substantiate their opinions with their own citations.

    In other words, put up or shut up.

    spongebob-butthurt.gif
  • ndj1979
    ndj1979 Posts: 29,136 Member
    Zedeff wrote: »
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    Troutsy wrote: »
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    Zedeff wrote: »
    FunkyTobias wrote: »
    Mr_Knight wrote: »
    There are human studies showing that intermittent and outright fasting increase the rate at which fat can be metabolized. The study's findings are consistent with that.


    Citation needed

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3292504
    "During exercise, glucose flux, whole-body carbohydrate oxidation, and the rate of muscle glycogen utilization were significantly lower during the fast."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8238506
    "These results demonstrate that the mobilization of adipose tissue triglycerides increases markedly between 18 and 24 h of fasting in young adult men."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3536834
    "Fat mobilization and utilization appeared to be greater in the fasted trial as evidenced by higher plasma concentrations of free fatty acids, glycerol, and beta-hydroxybutyrate as well as lower respiratory exchange ratio in the fasted trial during the first 30 min of exercise."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23582559
    "Recent experimental studies have elucidated some of the metabolic mechanisms involved with IF. Animal models have shown positive changes in glucose (lower plasma glucose and insulin levels) and in lipid metabolism (reduced visceral fat tissue and increased plasma adiponectin level), and an increased resistance to stress."

    first study has a sample size of eight men, really?

    second study is only six young men ..

    I stopped there..

    the third is nine males

    fourth doesn't give sample size but says
    Therefore, further clinical studies are essential to test the effectiveness of IF in preventing and controlling metabolic and cardiovascular diseases.

    so three small sample sizes and one with inconclusive results and no sample size...

    interesting..

    The 4th study is a review article, not a study. The fact that you don't even recognize this is evidence of your academic illiteracy, which I presupposed earlier.

    What is the point of having a discussion of evidence with someone who can't read scientific research?

    I think your gripe is with the other poster, as I said that I stopped reading at the second study. Are you having problems reading?
  • juggernaut1974
    juggernaut1974 Posts: 6,212 Member
    Zedeff wrote: »
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    Troutsy wrote: »
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    Zedeff wrote: »
    FunkyTobias wrote: »
    Mr_Knight wrote: »
    There are human studies showing that intermittent and outright fasting increase the rate at which fat can be metabolized. The study's findings are consistent with that.


    Citation needed

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3292504
    "During exercise, glucose flux, whole-body carbohydrate oxidation, and the rate of muscle glycogen utilization were significantly lower during the fast."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8238506
    "These results demonstrate that the mobilization of adipose tissue triglycerides increases markedly between 18 and 24 h of fasting in young adult men."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3536834
    "Fat mobilization and utilization appeared to be greater in the fasted trial as evidenced by higher plasma concentrations of free fatty acids, glycerol, and beta-hydroxybutyrate as well as lower respiratory exchange ratio in the fasted trial during the first 30 min of exercise."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23582559
    "Recent experimental studies have elucidated some of the metabolic mechanisms involved with IF. Animal models have shown positive changes in glucose (lower plasma glucose and insulin levels) and in lipid metabolism (reduced visceral fat tissue and increased plasma adiponectin level), and an increased resistance to stress."

    first study has a sample size of eight men, really?

    second study is only six young men ..

    I stopped there..

    the third is nine males

    fourth doesn't give sample size but says
    Therefore, further clinical studies are essential to test the effectiveness of IF in preventing and controlling metabolic and cardiovascular diseases.

    so three small sample sizes and one with inconclusive results and no sample size...

    interesting..

    The 4th study is a review article, not a study. The fact that you don't even recognize this is evidence of your academic illiteracy, which I presupposed earlier.

    What is the point of having a discussion of evidence with someone who can't read scientific research?

    Probably about the same as having a discussion of evidence with someone who can't read forum posts, as he clearly said he only read the first two.
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