The Clean Eating Myth
Replies
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mamapeach910 wrote: »tedboosalis7 wrote: »Comment from the site - perfect example of the use of the 1500 calorie threshold as set by the OP.
sniccifit November 10, 2013 at 9:47 AM #
I am always looking for ammo to use against the “calorie zealots,” but this bit could almost prove them right:
“Each woman was put on a strict 1500 calorie a day diet.
At the end of the 3 week period most of the women ended up losing weight. However, 10 women did not lose any weight, and 1 of the women actually gained weight.”
Was 1500 “very low calorie intake” for all of the women, including the one who gained weight? I mean, if she was a 4’11” petite woman who sat at a desk all day on the couch all night, would 1500 be a calorie excess for her? I’m basically playing devil’s advocate, because that’s what a “calorie zealot” might ask, but really I wouldn’t have an answer for them.
Jade Teta November 15, 2013 at 7:59 PM #
It is a very good question. The study is old and one major flaw is they did not measure BMR prior to the study. If they were really going to do this correctly they would have assessed BMR and then prescribed calorie intake based on that. However, the larger point we are making here is that even if the BMR was matched to consumption, the body is still going to compensate. Then you will assess and have even a lower BMR and have to match again. Until finally, the person is essentially eating
a 500kcal a day diet with unrelenting hunger, cravings and a metabolism primed to regain the weight like a swollen water balloon. Is this really a smart game to be playing? The stats on the success of diets say not………….the track record for success is atrocious and hints that we make things worse………i.e 2/3 of people end up fatter. From my perspective it is a lot like saying the tired horse won’t run so whip them harder……….it is a no when scenario and requires a more nuanced approach than just treating the metabolism like a rudimentary calculator.
Um, that was her answer? It's a direct quote? She doesn't know what she's talking about.
It's quite clear.
I find it kind of disturbing that I know this (I heard a podcast interview of his wife, who actually had some decent things to say, although I can't remember what now), but Jade Teta is a guy.0 -
It's easier to eat 1500 clean than 1500 junk. They doc who ate 1500 in junk food has strong will power and a fixed period to focus on (he's a doctor!). You can eat 1500 calories of doritos and be REALLY hungry throughout the day -- who in the normal population can sustain that? No one. I'm eating less than 1500 calories per day, but my macros are like ~50g carb, 160 g protein, 60-80g fat and i feel fine. This is 'good' food like chicken, greek yogurt, cheese, avocados, some chocolate, vegetables, etc.
Please point to any post in this thread, or any other thread in the history of MFP, where someone suggested that someone should eat nothing but 1500 calories of doritos all day long.
I will never fail to be astounded that the argument from clean eaters is that they get to eat a variety of foods, while the alternative is one single food, all day, every day. Whether it be cake (brought up in this thread) or doritos (see quoted post above) or donuts (often referenced in other threads).
I am completely onboard with CICO.
But I am also trying to lose weight to feel better. And you feel better when you eat vitamin rich products than when you eat doritos/donuts/cake. And a 500 calorie salad with protein and fat is going to be more satiating than the aforementioned stuff. So, while on a weight basis alone there probably isn't a large chasm, there are still differences in how you feel when you eat more clean food vs more junk food.
We run around the same arguments all the time. The truth is many people can stick with clean diets longer because they don't get the same cravings, etc.
You are missing the point. Who said to eat doritos/donut/cake instead of vitamin rich products? What they said was if you eat the 500 calorie salad with protein and fat, eat other nutritionally dense foods throughout the day, and then choose to top your day off with 200 cals of gelato, or oreos, there is nothing wrong with that.
Here is my pre-logged day so far:
Breakfast: Greek Yogurt, Coffee with Coffeemate creamer
Lunch: leftover grilled tilapia with homemade mango avocado salsa and a package of frozen mixed vegetables
Snack: Luna Protein Bar
Dinner: chicken sausage saute with squash and zucchini and a wedge of laughing cow cheese, over either pasta or rice (need to see what's in the pantry).
That's about 1200 cals. I have close to 700 left. I will probably try to get some protein in, maybe some peanut butter or another greek yogurt, but I will still have calories left over. Wine and Gelato will likely be my go to's.
Is my day unhealthy because of the gelato? Because many of the foods were processed?
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It's easier to eat 1500 clean than 1500 junk. They doc who ate 1500 in junk food has strong will power and a fixed period to focus on (he's a doctor!). You can eat 1500 calories of doritos and be REALLY hungry throughout the day -- who in the normal population can sustain that? No one. I'm eating less than 1500 calories per day, but my macros are like ~50g carb, 160 g protein, 60-80g fat and i feel fine. This is 'good' food like chicken, greek yogurt, cheese, avocados, some chocolate, vegetables, etc.
Please point to any post in this thread, or any other thread in the history of MFP, where someone suggested that someone should eat nothing but 1500 calories of doritos all day long.
I will never fail to be astounded that the argument from clean eaters is that they get to eat a variety of foods, while the alternative is one single food, all day, every day. Whether it be cake (brought up in this thread) or doritos (see quoted post above) or donuts (often referenced in other threads).
I am completely onboard with CICO.
But I am also trying to lose weight to feel better. And you feel better when you eat vitamin rich products than when you eat doritos/donuts/cake. And a 500 calorie salad with protein and fat is going to be more satiating than the aforementioned stuff. So, while on a weight basis alone there probably isn't a large chasm, there are still differences in how you feel when you eat more clean food vs more junk food.
We run around the same arguments all the time. The truth is many people can stick with clean diets longer because they don't get the same cravings, etc.
You are missing the point. Who said to eat doritos/donut/cake instead of vitamin rich products? What they said was if you eat the 500 calorie salad with protein and fat, eat other nutritionally dense foods throughout the day, and then choose to top your day off with 200 cals of gelato, or oreos, there is nothing wrong with that.
Here is my pre-logged day so far:
Breakfast: Greek Yogurt, Coffee with Coffeemate creamer
Lunch: leftover grilled tilapia with homemade mango avocado salsa and a package of frozen mixed vegetables
Snack: Luna Protein Bar
Dinner: chicken sausage saute with squash and zucchini and a wedge of laughing cow cheese, over either pasta or rice (need to see what's in the pantry).
That's about 1200 cals. I have close to 700 left. I will probably try to get some protein in, maybe some peanut butter or another greek yogurt, but I will still have calories left over. Wine and Gelato will likely be my go to's.
Is my day unhealthy because of the gelato? Because many of the foods were processed?
cosigned...
we had company lunch today and I had a bratwurst, grilled chicken, Oreo cake, a brownie, and some coleslaw ..for breakfast I had three egg whites, an egg, bacon, and a bagel, and for dinner I will have filet mignon with roasted potatoes. I will probably be right at or above my calorie target of 2250 for the day ...
do the brownies and cake make my day unhealthy????0 -
I agree with your answer.0
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RaeBeeBaby wrote: »You don't say whether their strength training level is exactly the same. While they are both eating the same calories at a deficit and working out, could the more nutritional ("clean") diet result in a more intense level of strength training and, therefore, result in a greater weight loss over time?
I know I have a much better workout following a healthy breakfast, rather than eating donuts (for example) which may have the same number of calories.
Definitely would be an interesting clinical study.
My best workouts and races are after I've eaten pizza, etc. Had a burger, chips, and, gelato for dinner and had the best workout I've had in weeks this morning.0 -
I note in some dietary studies identical twins are used to remove as many variables as possible. Is it possible that subject A and subject B might be variously efficient at metabolising the same diet? So even starting at the same weight and eating the same calories, one might lose more weight than the other.0
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It's easier to eat 1500 clean than 1500 junk. They doc who ate 1500 in junk food has strong will power and a fixed period to focus on (he's a doctor!). You can eat 1500 calories of doritos and be REALLY hungry throughout the day -- who in the normal population can sustain that? No one. I'm eating less than 1500 calories per day, but my macros are like ~50g carb, 160 g protein, 60-80g fat and i feel fine. This is 'good' food like chicken, greek yogurt, cheese, avocados, some chocolate, vegetables, etc.
Please point to any post in this thread, or any other thread in the history of MFP, where someone suggested that someone should eat nothing but 1500 calories of doritos all day long.
I will never fail to be astounded that the argument from clean eaters is that they get to eat a variety of foods, while the alternative is one single food, all day, every day. Whether it be cake (brought up in this thread) or doritos (see quoted post above) or donuts (often referenced in other threads).
I am completely onboard with CICO.
But I am also trying to lose weight to feel better. And you feel better when you eat vitamin rich products than when you eat doritos/donuts/cake. And a 500 calorie salad with protein and fat is going to be more satiating than the aforementioned stuff. So, while on a weight basis alone there probably isn't a large chasm, there are still differences in how you feel when you eat more clean food vs more junk food.
We run around the same arguments all the time. The truth is many people can stick with clean diets longer because they don't get the same cravings, etc.
You are missing the point. Who said to eat doritos/donut/cake instead of vitamin rich products? What they said was if you eat the 500 calorie salad with protein and fat, eat other nutritionally dense foods throughout the day, and then choose to top your day off with 200 cals of gelato, or oreos, there is nothing wrong with that.
Here is my pre-logged day so far:
Breakfast: Greek Yogurt, Coffee with Coffeemate creamer
Lunch: leftover grilled tilapia with homemade mango avocado salsa and a package of frozen mixed vegetables
Snack: Luna Protein Bar
Dinner: chicken sausage saute with squash and zucchini and a wedge of laughing cow cheese, over either pasta or rice (need to see what's in the pantry).
That's about 1200 cals. I have close to 700 left. I will probably try to get some protein in, maybe some peanut butter or another greek yogurt, but I will still have calories left over. Wine and Gelato will likely be my go to's.
Is my day unhealthy because of the gelato? Because many of the foods were processed?
I'm not arguing your diet at all. Looks great to me. Merely the notion that it doesn't matter where your calories come from. Because if you aren't eating vitamin rich foods it IS going to be more difficult to stay within your calories, to stick to the diet long term, etc.0 -
It's easier to eat 1500 clean than 1500 junk. They doc who ate 1500 in junk food has strong will power and a fixed period to focus on (he's a doctor!). You can eat 1500 calories of doritos and be REALLY hungry throughout the day -- who in the normal population can sustain that? No one. I'm eating less than 1500 calories per day, but my macros are like ~50g carb, 160 g protein, 60-80g fat and i feel fine. This is 'good' food like chicken, greek yogurt, cheese, avocados, some chocolate, vegetables, etc.
Please point to any post in this thread, or any other thread in the history of MFP, where someone suggested that someone should eat nothing but 1500 calories of doritos all day long.
I will never fail to be astounded that the argument from clean eaters is that they get to eat a variety of foods, while the alternative is one single food, all day, every day. Whether it be cake (brought up in this thread) or doritos (see quoted post above) or donuts (often referenced in other threads).
I am completely onboard with CICO.
But I am also trying to lose weight to feel better. And you feel better when you eat vitamin rich products than when you eat doritos/donuts/cake. And a 500 calorie salad with protein and fat is going to be more satiating than the aforementioned stuff. So, while on a weight basis alone there probably isn't a large chasm, there are still differences in how you feel when you eat more clean food vs more junk food.
We run around the same arguments all the time. The truth is many people can stick with clean diets longer because they don't get the same cravings, etc.
You are missing the point. Who said to eat doritos/donut/cake instead of vitamin rich products? What they said was if you eat the 500 calorie salad with protein and fat, eat other nutritionally dense foods throughout the day, and then choose to top your day off with 200 cals of gelato, or oreos, there is nothing wrong with that.
Here is my pre-logged day so far:
Breakfast: Greek Yogurt, Coffee with Coffeemate creamer
Lunch: leftover grilled tilapia with homemade mango avocado salsa and a package of frozen mixed vegetables
Snack: Luna Protein Bar
Dinner: chicken sausage saute with squash and zucchini and a wedge of laughing cow cheese, over either pasta or rice (need to see what's in the pantry).
That's about 1200 cals. I have close to 700 left. I will probably try to get some protein in, maybe some peanut butter or another greek yogurt, but I will still have calories left over. Wine and Gelato will likely be my go to's.
Is my day unhealthy because of the gelato? Because many of the foods were processed?
I'm not arguing your diet at all. Looks great to me. Merely the notion that it doesn't matter where your calories come from. Because if you aren't eating vitamin rich foods it IS going to be more difficult to stay within your calories, to stick to the diet long term, etc.
Who is arguing against eating vitamin-rich foods?0 -
It's easier to eat 1500 clean than 1500 junk. They doc who ate 1500 in junk food has strong will power and a fixed period to focus on (he's a doctor!). You can eat 1500 calories of doritos and be REALLY hungry throughout the day -- who in the normal population can sustain that? No one. I'm eating less than 1500 calories per day, but my macros are like ~50g carb, 160 g protein, 60-80g fat and i feel fine. This is 'good' food like chicken, greek yogurt, cheese, avocados, some chocolate, vegetables, etc.
Please point to any post in this thread, or any other thread in the history of MFP, where someone suggested that someone should eat nothing but 1500 calories of doritos all day long.
I will never fail to be astounded that the argument from clean eaters is that they get to eat a variety of foods, while the alternative is one single food, all day, every day. Whether it be cake (brought up in this thread) or doritos (see quoted post above) or donuts (often referenced in other threads).
I am completely onboard with CICO.
But I am also trying to lose weight to feel better. And you feel better when you eat vitamin rich products than when you eat doritos/donuts/cake. And a 500 calorie salad with protein and fat is going to be more satiating than the aforementioned stuff. So, while on a weight basis alone there probably isn't a large chasm, there are still differences in how you feel when you eat more clean food vs more junk food.
We run around the same arguments all the time. The truth is many people can stick with clean diets longer because they don't get the same cravings, etc.
You are missing the point. Who said to eat doritos/donut/cake instead of vitamin rich products? What they said was if you eat the 500 calorie salad with protein and fat, eat other nutritionally dense foods throughout the day, and then choose to top your day off with 200 cals of gelato, or oreos, there is nothing wrong with that.
Here is my pre-logged day so far:
Breakfast: Greek Yogurt, Coffee with Coffeemate creamer
Lunch: leftover grilled tilapia with homemade mango avocado salsa and a package of frozen mixed vegetables
Snack: Luna Protein Bar
Dinner: chicken sausage saute with squash and zucchini and a wedge of laughing cow cheese, over either pasta or rice (need to see what's in the pantry).
That's about 1200 cals. I have close to 700 left. I will probably try to get some protein in, maybe some peanut butter or another greek yogurt, but I will still have calories left over. Wine and Gelato will likely be my go to's.
Is my day unhealthy because of the gelato? Because many of the foods were processed?
I'm not arguing your diet at all. Looks great to me. Merely the notion that it doesn't matter where your calories come from. Because if you aren't eating vitamin rich foods it IS going to be more difficult to stay within your calories, to stick to the diet long term, etc.
again, who in this thread is advocating against eating nutrient dense foods? I clearly said in my OP that the person not eating clean food was still eating nutrient dense foods and hitting micros.0 -
mamapeach910 wrote: »mamapeach910 wrote: »This myth was proven false by a professor of nutrition. His procedure is called "The Twinkie Diet". He ate nothing but twinies and doritos and junk food and lost 27 pounds in two months.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/
There are certainly health benefits to eating a balanced diet and all the right vitamins and minerals. But if you are only talking about weight loss, then the only thing that matters is calories in vs. calories out. It doesn't matter what you eat. It matters how much of it you eat.
Well, that doesn't really address the point ndj is making. The latest assertions making the rounds from the clean eating crew are that you will lose MORE and FASTER eating clean than processed. They aren't asserting that you won't lose at all.
To have a parallel disproof here, Haub would have needed to also done a trial diet of "clean" eating for the same time frame at the same calorie level.
yes, which of course then begs the question …what would be a "clean" diet to run parallel to the twinkie diet?
It's gotta be kale. The kale diet.
Kale because it will give you massive gainzzzz!0 -
It's easier to eat 1500 clean than 1500 junk. They doc who ate 1500 in junk food has strong will power and a fixed period to focus on (he's a doctor!). You can eat 1500 calories of doritos and be REALLY hungry throughout the day -- who in the normal population can sustain that? No one. I'm eating less than 1500 calories per day, but my macros are like ~50g carb, 160 g protein, 60-80g fat and i feel fine. This is 'good' food like chicken, greek yogurt, cheese, avocados, some chocolate, vegetables, etc.
Please point to any post in this thread, or any other thread in the history of MFP, where someone suggested that someone should eat nothing but 1500 calories of doritos all day long.
I will never fail to be astounded that the argument from clean eaters is that they get to eat a variety of foods, while the alternative is one single food, all day, every day. Whether it be cake (brought up in this thread) or doritos (see quoted post above) or donuts (often referenced in other threads).
I am completely onboard with CICO.
But I am also trying to lose weight to feel better. And you feel better when you eat vitamin rich products than when you eat doritos/donuts/cake. And a 500 calorie salad with protein and fat is going to be more satiating than the aforementioned stuff. So, while on a weight basis alone there probably isn't a large chasm, there are still differences in how you feel when you eat more clean food vs more junk food.
We run around the same arguments all the time. The truth is many people can stick with clean diets longer because they don't get the same cravings, etc.
You are missing the point. Who said to eat doritos/donut/cake instead of vitamin rich products? What they said was if you eat the 500 calorie salad with protein and fat, eat other nutritionally dense foods throughout the day, and then choose to top your day off with 200 cals of gelato, or oreos, there is nothing wrong with that.
Here is my pre-logged day so far:
Breakfast: Greek Yogurt, Coffee with Coffeemate creamer
Lunch: leftover grilled tilapia with homemade mango avocado salsa and a package of frozen mixed vegetables
Snack: Luna Protein Bar
Dinner: chicken sausage saute with squash and zucchini and a wedge of laughing cow cheese, over either pasta or rice (need to see what's in the pantry).
That's about 1200 cals. I have close to 700 left. I will probably try to get some protein in, maybe some peanut butter or another greek yogurt, but I will still have calories left over. Wine and Gelato will likely be my go to's.
Is my day unhealthy because of the gelato? Because many of the foods were processed?
I'm not arguing your diet at all. Looks great to me. Merely the notion that it doesn't matter where your calories come from. Because if you aren't eating vitamin rich foods it IS going to be more difficult to stay within your calories, to stick to the diet long term, etc.
The only people who say it has to be one or the other are clean eaters. Most of the people advocating for Team Moderation are eating just as many, if not more, nutrient dense foods as the clean eaters. They just don't restrict certain foods because it doesn't meet an ever changing definition of what is clean or unclean. They finish their day off with whatever they have room for, that fits within their day.
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It's easier to eat 1500 clean than 1500 junk. They doc who ate 1500 in junk food has strong will power and a fixed period to focus on (he's a doctor!). You can eat 1500 calories of doritos and be REALLY hungry throughout the day -- who in the normal population can sustain that? No one. I'm eating less than 1500 calories per day, but my macros are like ~50g carb, 160 g protein, 60-80g fat and i feel fine. This is 'good' food like chicken, greek yogurt, cheese, avocados, some chocolate, vegetables, etc.
Please point to any post in this thread, or any other thread in the history of MFP, where someone suggested that someone should eat nothing but 1500 calories of doritos all day long.
I will never fail to be astounded that the argument from clean eaters is that they get to eat a variety of foods, while the alternative is one single food, all day, every day. Whether it be cake (brought up in this thread) or doritos (see quoted post above) or donuts (often referenced in other threads).
I am completely onboard with CICO.
But I am also trying to lose weight to feel better. And you feel better when you eat vitamin rich products than when you eat doritos/donuts/cake. And a 500 calorie salad with protein and fat is going to be more satiating than the aforementioned stuff. So, while on a weight basis alone there probably isn't a large chasm, there are still differences in how you feel when you eat more clean food vs more junk food.
We run around the same arguments all the time. The truth is many people can stick with clean diets longer because they don't get the same cravings, etc.
You are missing the point. Who said to eat doritos/donut/cake instead of vitamin rich products? What they said was if you eat the 500 calorie salad with protein and fat, eat other nutritionally dense foods throughout the day, and then choose to top your day off with 200 cals of gelato, or oreos, there is nothing wrong with that.
Here is my pre-logged day so far:
Breakfast: Greek Yogurt, Coffee with Coffeemate creamer
Lunch: leftover grilled tilapia with homemade mango avocado salsa and a package of frozen mixed vegetables
Snack: Luna Protein Bar
Dinner: chicken sausage saute with squash and zucchini and a wedge of laughing cow cheese, over either pasta or rice (need to see what's in the pantry).
That's about 1200 cals. I have close to 700 left. I will probably try to get some protein in, maybe some peanut butter or another greek yogurt, but I will still have calories left over. Wine and Gelato will likely be my go to's.
Is my day unhealthy because of the gelato? Because many of the foods were processed?
I'm not arguing your diet at all. Looks great to me. Merely the notion that it doesn't matter where your calories come from. Because if you aren't eating vitamin rich foods it IS going to be more difficult to stay within your calories, to stick to the diet long term, etc.
The only people who say it has to be one or the other are clean eaters. Most of the people advocating for Team Moderation are eating just as many, if not more, nutrient dense foods as the clean eaters. They just don't restrict certain foods because it doesn't meet an ever changing definition of what is clean or unclean. They finish their day off with whatever they have room for, that fits within their day.
This
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It's easier to eat 1500 clean than 1500 junk. They doc who ate 1500 in junk food has strong will power and a fixed period to focus on (he's a doctor!). You can eat 1500 calories of doritos and be REALLY hungry throughout the day -- who in the normal population can sustain that? No one. I'm eating less than 1500 calories per day, but my macros are like ~50g carb, 160 g protein, 60-80g fat and i feel fine. This is 'good' food like chicken, greek yogurt, cheese, avocados, some chocolate, vegetables, etc.
Please point to any post in this thread, or any other thread in the history of MFP, where someone suggested that someone should eat nothing but 1500 calories of doritos all day long.
I will never fail to be astounded that the argument from clean eaters is that they get to eat a variety of foods, while the alternative is one single food, all day, every day. Whether it be cake (brought up in this thread) or doritos (see quoted post above) or donuts (often referenced in other threads).
I am completely onboard with CICO.
But I am also trying to lose weight to feel better. And you feel better when you eat vitamin rich products than when you eat doritos/donuts/cake. And a 500 calorie salad with protein and fat is going to be more satiating than the aforementioned stuff. So, while on a weight basis alone there probably isn't a large chasm, there are still differences in how you feel when you eat more clean food vs more junk food.
We run around the same arguments all the time. The truth is many people can stick with clean diets longer because they don't get the same cravings, etc.
You are missing the point. Who said to eat doritos/donut/cake instead of vitamin rich products? What they said was if you eat the 500 calorie salad with protein and fat, eat other nutritionally dense foods throughout the day, and then choose to top your day off with 200 cals of gelato, or oreos, there is nothing wrong with that.
Here is my pre-logged day so far:
Breakfast: Greek Yogurt, Coffee with Coffeemate creamer
Lunch: leftover grilled tilapia with homemade mango avocado salsa and a package of frozen mixed vegetables
Snack: Luna Protein Bar
Dinner: chicken sausage saute with squash and zucchini and a wedge of laughing cow cheese, over either pasta or rice (need to see what's in the pantry).
That's about 1200 cals. I have close to 700 left. I will probably try to get some protein in, maybe some peanut butter or another greek yogurt, but I will still have calories left over. Wine and Gelato will likely be my go to's.
Is my day unhealthy because of the gelato? Because many of the foods were processed?
I'm not arguing your diet at all. Looks great to me. Merely the notion that it doesn't matter where your calories come from. Because if you aren't eating vitamin rich foods it IS going to be more difficult to stay within your calories, to stick to the diet long term, etc.
The only people who say it has to be one or the other are clean eaters. Most of the people advocating for Team Moderation are eating just as many, if not more, nutrient dense foods as the clean eaters. They just don't restrict certain foods because it doesn't meet an ever changing definition of what is clean or unclean. They finish their day off with whatever they have room for, that fits within their day.
I don't know why we are arguing. I agree with everything you are saying. When people say CICO and that it doesn't matter what your calories are its pretty easy to take it as "eat junk food, just less". And its been my experience that this doesn't work.0 -
curlygirlkrissie wrote: »I would tend to say that, generally speaking, 1500 calories is 1500 calories. (note "generally") The benefits of a clean diet far outweigh that of a diet consisting of processed foods and snacks. Creating a 3500 deficit will, in fact, result in a 1lb loss no matter how you arrive at the deficit.
Exactly. Eating clean foods is not about weight loss, it's about nutrition and health. I could eat one big meal of 1,500 calories but I would feel like crap. I'd rather spread out healthy meals and have a small indulgence.
Satiety also comes into play because you can eat the wrong foods that won't fill you up and you end up overeating.
For long term success it's best to have a nutritious diet that way you become accustomed to eating healthy.0 -
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I can't believe you guys are still entertaining this crowd. I can't wait for the day when this whole crowd cruelly puts up progress pictures to show the application of all their awesome beliefs.
Stay tune for July when I have another physical with bod pod. I will gladly post my results. I want to see how much more I can naturally increase my testosterone.
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Terpnista84 wrote: »curlygirlkrissie wrote: »I would tend to say that, generally speaking, 1500 calories is 1500 calories. (note "generally") The benefits of a clean diet far outweigh that of a diet consisting of processed foods and snacks. Creating a 3500 deficit will, in fact, result in a 1lb loss no matter how you arrive at the deficit.
Exactly. Eating clean foods is not about weight loss, it's about nutrition and health. I could eat one big meal of 1,500 calories but I would feel like crap. I'd rather spread out healthy meals and have a small indulgence.
Satiety also comes into play because you can eat the wrong foods that won't fill you up and you end up overeating.
For long term success it's best to have a nutritious diet that way you become accustomed to eating healthy.
But again, eating 1500 calories in one meal or over 3 meals doesn't really have anything to do with clean eating, right? I mean, I could eat 1500 calories of clean food in one meal, too, and still feel just as bad. The non-clean-eaters (team moderation) often space out their meals. And their meals can be just as healthy and include a small indulgence.
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It's easier to eat 1500 clean than 1500 junk. They doc who ate 1500 in junk food has strong will power and a fixed period to focus on (he's a doctor!). You can eat 1500 calories of doritos and be REALLY hungry throughout the day -- who in the normal population can sustain that? No one. I'm eating less than 1500 calories per day, but my macros are like ~50g carb, 160 g protein, 60-80g fat and i feel fine. This is 'good' food like chicken, greek yogurt, cheese, avocados, some chocolate, vegetables, etc.
Please point to any post in this thread, or any other thread in the history of MFP, where someone suggested that someone should eat nothing but 1500 calories of doritos all day long.
I will never fail to be astounded that the argument from clean eaters is that they get to eat a variety of foods, while the alternative is one single food, all day, every day. Whether it be cake (brought up in this thread) or doritos (see quoted post above) or donuts (often referenced in other threads).
I am completely onboard with CICO.
But I am also trying to lose weight to feel better. And you feel better when you eat vitamin rich products than when you eat doritos/donuts/cake. And a 500 calorie salad with protein and fat is going to be more satiating than the aforementioned stuff. So, while on a weight basis alone there probably isn't a large chasm, there are still differences in how you feel when you eat more clean food vs more junk food.
We run around the same arguments all the time. The truth is many people can stick with clean diets longer because they don't get the same cravings, etc.
You are missing the point. Who said to eat doritos/donut/cake instead of vitamin rich products? What they said was if you eat the 500 calorie salad with protein and fat, eat other nutritionally dense foods throughout the day, and then choose to top your day off with 200 cals of gelato, or oreos, there is nothing wrong with that.
Here is my pre-logged day so far:
Breakfast: Greek Yogurt, Coffee with Coffeemate creamer
Lunch: leftover grilled tilapia with homemade mango avocado salsa and a package of frozen mixed vegetables
Snack: Luna Protein Bar
Dinner: chicken sausage saute with squash and zucchini and a wedge of laughing cow cheese, over either pasta or rice (need to see what's in the pantry).
That's about 1200 cals. I have close to 700 left. I will probably try to get some protein in, maybe some peanut butter or another greek yogurt, but I will still have calories left over. Wine and Gelato will likely be my go to's.
Is my day unhealthy because of the gelato? Because many of the foods were processed?
I'm not arguing your diet at all. Looks great to me. Merely the notion that it doesn't matter where your calories come from. Because if you aren't eating vitamin rich foods it IS going to be more difficult to stay within your calories, to stick to the diet long term, etc.
The only people who say it has to be one or the other are clean eaters. Most of the people advocating for Team Moderation are eating just as many, if not more, nutrient dense foods as the clean eaters. They just don't restrict certain foods because it doesn't meet an ever changing definition of what is clean or unclean. They finish their day off with whatever they have room for, that fits within their day.
I don't know why we are arguing. I agree with everything you are saying. When people say CICO and that it doesn't matter what your calories are its pretty easy to take it as "eat junk food, just less". And its been my experience that this doesn't work.
I'm not really arguing and I'm sorry you think that I am.
I realize we agree for the most part and this is a debate of semantics, but I think this is a common issue. There is a lot of hype in the media right now that everyone needs to "eat clean". As we've seen from this thread and myriad others, that means something different for different people. So people who are new to MFP come on here and say, "I want to eat clean so I can lose weight" or "it's the quality of calories that matter, not the quantity" because that's what they heard on Facebook or Daily Mail or something like that. Experienced, successful MFP users on Team Moderation say, "you don't have to eat clean to lose weight, eat the foods you like, just eat less of them" because for many people, completely restricting food groups to achieve some arbitrary definition is not a sustainable long term approach. Then the Clean Eaters come in and say, "oh yeah, because eating a diet of nothing but donuts/doritos/cake is so sustainable".
The difference is that if you actually look at what most of the Moderation/Flexible Dieters eat, it is a diet that is largely balanced nutritionally with treats thrown in. I think many of the people on that side of the debate do try to clarify that when they say eat the foods you like just eat less of them, they mean AFTER you eat the nutritionally dense foods which help with satiety and your overall health goals, but I do know that some people omit that qualifying statement and that is maybe where some of the confusion comes in. That, and I think people just like to argue.
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diannethegeek wrote: »Terpnista84 wrote: »curlygirlkrissie wrote: »I would tend to say that, generally speaking, 1500 calories is 1500 calories. (note "generally") The benefits of a clean diet far outweigh that of a diet consisting of processed foods and snacks. Creating a 3500 deficit will, in fact, result in a 1lb loss no matter how you arrive at the deficit.
Exactly. Eating clean foods is not about weight loss, it's about nutrition and health. I could eat one big meal of 1,500 calories but I would feel like crap. I'd rather spread out healthy meals and have a small indulgence.
Satiety also comes into play because you can eat the wrong foods that won't fill you up and you end up overeating.
For long term success it's best to have a nutritious diet that way you become accustomed to eating healthy.
But again, eating 1500 calories in one meal or over 3 meals doesn't really have anything to do with clean eating, right? I mean, I could eat 1500 calories of clean food in one meal, too, and still feel just as bad. The non-clean-eaters (team moderation) often space out their meals. And their meals can be just as healthy and include a small indulgence.
Agreed. 1500 clean calories in one sitting? That's a heck of a lot of broccoli...
Earlier the assumption was made that the 1500 cals of the "unclean" crowd was just one food, cake, while the clean eaters were getting a variety of clean foods. Now it is assumed that the 1500 cals for the "unclean" day is in one meal. I never understand how the clean eaters get all the variety and get to space everything out exactly as they see fit, and I'm stuck with 1500 calories of Doritos all at once.
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diannethegeek wrote: »Terpnista84 wrote: »curlygirlkrissie wrote: »I would tend to say that, generally speaking, 1500 calories is 1500 calories. (note "generally") The benefits of a clean diet far outweigh that of a diet consisting of processed foods and snacks. Creating a 3500 deficit will, in fact, result in a 1lb loss no matter how you arrive at the deficit.
Exactly. Eating clean foods is not about weight loss, it's about nutrition and health. I could eat one big meal of 1,500 calories but I would feel like crap. I'd rather spread out healthy meals and have a small indulgence.
Satiety also comes into play because you can eat the wrong foods that won't fill you up and you end up overeating.
For long term success it's best to have a nutritious diet that way you become accustomed to eating healthy.
But again, eating 1500 calories in one meal or over 3 meals doesn't really have anything to do with clean eating, right? I mean, I could eat 1500 calories of clean food in one meal, too, and still feel just as bad. The non-clean-eaters (team moderation) often space out their meals. And their meals can be just as healthy and include a small indulgence.
It would be extremely hard to eat 1,500 calories of food in a "clean" meal. And you definitely would feel bad afterwards because it would be a lot more food than an unhealthy meal.
I don't eat clean all the time, I eat in moderation. Trying to lose weight by saving all of your calories for pizza just seems like a potentially destructive path. It doesn't teach you how to adjust your eating habits for the long term to keep the weight off.
Eating within my calorie range seems to be working for me. But in order for me to feel full, energized, and healthy (and stay within my calorie goal) I have to incorporate a lot of healthy foods in my diet.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Pretty sure spelling it toxinz is the tip off that it's not serious. (Also, I am familiar with the poster's prior work.)
Its so hard to tell on this site sometimes.
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When people say CICO and that it doesn't matter what your calories are its pretty easy to take it as "eat junk food, just less". And its been my experience that this doesn't work.
No, it's really not, especially given the perfectly clear hypothetical.
Why would you assume that not eating "clean" means we are eating "junk food."
For that matter, why would you assume that we were eating mostly "junk food" before losing weight?
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It's easier to eat 1500 clean than 1500 junk. They doc who ate 1500 in junk food has strong will power and a fixed period to focus on (he's a doctor!). You can eat 1500 calories of doritos and be REALLY hungry throughout the day -- who in the normal population can sustain that? No one. I'm eating less than 1500 calories per day, but my macros are like ~50g carb, 160 g protein, 60-80g fat and i feel fine. This is 'good' food like chicken, greek yogurt, cheese, avocados, some chocolate, vegetables, etc.
Please point to any post in this thread, or any other thread in the history of MFP, where someone suggested that someone should eat nothing but 1500 calories of doritos all day long.
I will never fail to be astounded that the argument from clean eaters is that they get to eat a variety of foods, while the alternative is one single food, all day, every day. Whether it be cake (brought up in this thread) or doritos (see quoted post above) or donuts (often referenced in other threads).
I am completely onboard with CICO.
But I am also trying to lose weight to feel better. And you feel better when you eat vitamin rich products than when you eat doritos/donuts/cake. And a 500 calorie salad with protein and fat is going to be more satiating than the aforementioned stuff. So, while on a weight basis alone there probably isn't a large chasm, there are still differences in how you feel when you eat more clean food vs more junk food.
We run around the same arguments all the time. The truth is many people can stick with clean diets longer because they don't get the same cravings, etc.
You are missing the point. Who said to eat doritos/donut/cake instead of vitamin rich products? What they said was if you eat the 500 calorie salad with protein and fat, eat other nutritionally dense foods throughout the day, and then choose to top your day off with 200 cals of gelato, or oreos, there is nothing wrong with that.
Here is my pre-logged day so far:
Breakfast: Greek Yogurt, Coffee with Coffeemate creamer
Lunch: leftover grilled tilapia with homemade mango avocado salsa and a package of frozen mixed vegetables
Snack: Luna Protein Bar
Dinner: chicken sausage saute with squash and zucchini and a wedge of laughing cow cheese, over either pasta or rice (need to see what's in the pantry).
That's about 1200 cals. I have close to 700 left. I will probably try to get some protein in, maybe some peanut butter or another greek yogurt, but I will still have calories left over. Wine and Gelato will likely be my go to's.
Is my day unhealthy because of the gelato? Because many of the foods were processed?
I'm not arguing your diet at all. Looks great to me. Merely the notion that it doesn't matter where your calories come from. Because if you aren't eating vitamin rich foods it IS going to be more difficult to stay within your calories, to stick to the diet long term, etc.
The only people who say it has to be one or the other are clean eaters. Most of the people advocating for Team Moderation are eating just as many, if not more, nutrient dense foods as the clean eaters. They just don't restrict certain foods because it doesn't meet an ever changing definition of what is clean or unclean. They finish their day off with whatever they have room for, that fits within their day.
I don't know why we are arguing. I agree with everything you are saying. When people say CICO and that it doesn't matter what your calories are its pretty easy to take it as "eat junk food, just less". And its been my experience that this doesn't work.
are you even reading what people are saying? Or are you just going to keep saying bla bla junk food...???
What are you defining as junk food? And why are you defining said food as junk?
What we are saying is eat nutrient dense foods so you hit micros and fill in with treats...0 -
Terpnista84 wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »Terpnista84 wrote: »curlygirlkrissie wrote: »I would tend to say that, generally speaking, 1500 calories is 1500 calories. (note "generally") The benefits of a clean diet far outweigh that of a diet consisting of processed foods and snacks. Creating a 3500 deficit will, in fact, result in a 1lb loss no matter how you arrive at the deficit.
Exactly. Eating clean foods is not about weight loss, it's about nutrition and health. I could eat one big meal of 1,500 calories but I would feel like crap. I'd rather spread out healthy meals and have a small indulgence.
Satiety also comes into play because you can eat the wrong foods that won't fill you up and you end up overeating.
For long term success it's best to have a nutritious diet that way you become accustomed to eating healthy.
But again, eating 1500 calories in one meal or over 3 meals doesn't really have anything to do with clean eating, right? I mean, I could eat 1500 calories of clean food in one meal, too, and still feel just as bad. The non-clean-eaters (team moderation) often space out their meals. And their meals can be just as healthy and include a small indulgence.
It would be extremely hard to eat 1,500 calories of food in a "clean" meal. And you definitely would feel bad afterwards because it would be a lot more food than an unhealthy meal.
I don't eat clean all the time, I eat in moderation. Trying to lose weight by saving all of your calories for pizza just seems like a potentially destructive path. It doesn't teach you how to adjust your eating habits for the long term to keep the weight off.
Eating within my calorie range seems to be working for me. But in order for me to feel full, energized, and healthy (and stay within my calorie goal) I have to incorporate a lot of healthy foods in my diet.
Nah0 -
diannethegeek wrote: »Terpnista84 wrote: »curlygirlkrissie wrote: »I would tend to say that, generally speaking, 1500 calories is 1500 calories. (note "generally") The benefits of a clean diet far outweigh that of a diet consisting of processed foods and snacks. Creating a 3500 deficit will, in fact, result in a 1lb loss no matter how you arrive at the deficit.
Exactly. Eating clean foods is not about weight loss, it's about nutrition and health. I could eat one big meal of 1,500 calories but I would feel like crap. I'd rather spread out healthy meals and have a small indulgence.
Satiety also comes into play because you can eat the wrong foods that won't fill you up and you end up overeating.
For long term success it's best to have a nutritious diet that way you become accustomed to eating healthy.
But again, eating 1500 calories in one meal or over 3 meals doesn't really have anything to do with clean eating, right? I mean, I could eat 1500 calories of clean food in one meal, too, and still feel just as bad. The non-clean-eaters (team moderation) often space out their meals. And their meals can be just as healthy and include a small indulgence.
try eating 1500 calories of broccoli and kale in one sitting and tell me how you feel...0 -
yopeeps025 wrote: »I can't believe you guys are still entertaining this crowd. I can't wait for the day when this whole crowd cruelly puts up progress pictures to show the application of all their awesome beliefs.
Stay tune for July when I have another physical with bod pod. I will gladly post my results. I want to see how much more I can naturally increase my testosterone.
I think for my next thread, I am going to post my lab results and watch all the clean eaters heads explode.0 -
Terpnista84 wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »Terpnista84 wrote: »curlygirlkrissie wrote: »I would tend to say that, generally speaking, 1500 calories is 1500 calories. (note "generally") The benefits of a clean diet far outweigh that of a diet consisting of processed foods and snacks. Creating a 3500 deficit will, in fact, result in a 1lb loss no matter how you arrive at the deficit.
Exactly. Eating clean foods is not about weight loss, it's about nutrition and health. I could eat one big meal of 1,500 calories but I would feel like crap. I'd rather spread out healthy meals and have a small indulgence.
Satiety also comes into play because you can eat the wrong foods that won't fill you up and you end up overeating.
For long term success it's best to have a nutritious diet that way you become accustomed to eating healthy.
But again, eating 1500 calories in one meal or over 3 meals doesn't really have anything to do with clean eating, right? I mean, I could eat 1500 calories of clean food in one meal, too, and still feel just as bad. The non-clean-eaters (team moderation) often space out their meals. And their meals can be just as healthy and include a small indulgence.
It would be extremely hard to eat 1,500 calories of food in a "clean" meal. And you definitely would feel bad afterwards because it would be a lot more food than an unhealthy meal.
I don't eat clean all the time, I eat in moderation. Trying to lose weight by saving all of your calories for pizza just seems like a potentially destructive path. It doesn't teach you how to adjust your eating habits for the long term to keep the weight off.
Eating within my calorie range seems to be working for me. But in order for me to feel full, energized, and healthy (and stay within my calorie goal) I have to incorporate a lot of healthy foods in my diet.
Honestly, that depends on your definition of clean. Eggs, cheese, avocado, olive oil, coconut oil, seeds, nuts. You could build a pretty effective 1500-calorie salad using calorie dense, but clean, ingredients.
However, we seem to be talking about the same thing, right? Moderation? I mean, even the OP stipulates that the non-clean example is hitting the same macro and micro nutrients. Why are we shifting back to nothing but pizza all the time?
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diannethegeek wrote: »Terpnista84 wrote: »curlygirlkrissie wrote: »I would tend to say that, generally speaking, 1500 calories is 1500 calories. (note "generally") The benefits of a clean diet far outweigh that of a diet consisting of processed foods and snacks. Creating a 3500 deficit will, in fact, result in a 1lb loss no matter how you arrive at the deficit.
Exactly. Eating clean foods is not about weight loss, it's about nutrition and health. I could eat one big meal of 1,500 calories but I would feel like crap. I'd rather spread out healthy meals and have a small indulgence.
Satiety also comes into play because you can eat the wrong foods that won't fill you up and you end up overeating.
For long term success it's best to have a nutritious diet that way you become accustomed to eating healthy.
But again, eating 1500 calories in one meal or over 3 meals doesn't really have anything to do with clean eating, right? I mean, I could eat 1500 calories of clean food in one meal, too, and still feel just as bad. The non-clean-eaters (team moderation) often space out their meals. And their meals can be just as healthy and include a small indulgence.
try eating 1500 calories of broccoli and kale in one sitting and tell me how you feel...
You're falling into the same trap as the junk-food-all-the-time posters. Broccoli and kale are not the only clean foods. Are you really telling me you couldn't build a 1500-calorie clean meal?
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diannethegeek wrote: »Terpnista84 wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »Terpnista84 wrote: »curlygirlkrissie wrote: »I would tend to say that, generally speaking, 1500 calories is 1500 calories. (note "generally") The benefits of a clean diet far outweigh that of a diet consisting of processed foods and snacks. Creating a 3500 deficit will, in fact, result in a 1lb loss no matter how you arrive at the deficit.
Exactly. Eating clean foods is not about weight loss, it's about nutrition and health. I could eat one big meal of 1,500 calories but I would feel like crap. I'd rather spread out healthy meals and have a small indulgence.
Satiety also comes into play because you can eat the wrong foods that won't fill you up and you end up overeating.
For long term success it's best to have a nutritious diet that way you become accustomed to eating healthy.
But again, eating 1500 calories in one meal or over 3 meals doesn't really have anything to do with clean eating, right? I mean, I could eat 1500 calories of clean food in one meal, too, and still feel just as bad. The non-clean-eaters (team moderation) often space out their meals. And their meals can be just as healthy and include a small indulgence.
It would be extremely hard to eat 1,500 calories of food in a "clean" meal. And you definitely would feel bad afterwards because it would be a lot more food than an unhealthy meal.
I don't eat clean all the time, I eat in moderation. Trying to lose weight by saving all of your calories for pizza just seems like a potentially destructive path. It doesn't teach you how to adjust your eating habits for the long term to keep the weight off.
Eating within my calorie range seems to be working for me. But in order for me to feel full, energized, and healthy (and stay within my calorie goal) I have to incorporate a lot of healthy foods in my diet.
Honestly, that depends on your definition of clean. Eggs, cheese, avocado, olive oil, coconut oil, seeds, nuts. You could build a pretty effective 1500-calorie salad using calorie dense, but clean, ingredients.
However, we seem to be talking about the same thing, right? Moderation? I mean, even the OP stipulates that the non-clean example is hitting the same macro and micro nutrients. Why are we shifting back to nothing but pizza all the time?
Because that's the only way their arguments work.
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Terpnista84 wrote: »curlygirlkrissie wrote: »I would tend to say that, generally speaking, 1500 calories is 1500 calories. (note "generally") The benefits of a clean diet far outweigh that of a diet consisting of processed foods and snacks. Creating a 3500 deficit will, in fact, result in a 1lb loss no matter how you arrive at the deficit.
Exactly. Eating clean foods is not about weight loss, it's about nutrition and health. I could eat one big meal of 1,500 calories but I would feel like crap. I'd rather spread out healthy meals and have a small indulgence.
Satiety also comes into play because you can eat the wrong foods that won't fill you up and you end up overeating.
For long term success it's best to have a nutritious diet that way you become accustomed to eating healthy.
Yes, and again why does not eating "clean" mean you don't have a nutritious diet?
I'm on a logging break, but today:
2 egg omelet with spinach, broccoli, zucchini, and feta plus cottage cheese and some blueberries.
Lebanese chicken flatbread sandwich from Pret a Manger (in case you care: Chargrilled Chicken (antibiotic-free) mixed with our Lebanese dip, a delicious red sauce made with roasted red peppers, sunflower seeds, tamarind, and lemon juice. It's topped with fresh mint and cilantro and rolled in a Middle Eastern-style flatbread).
Tonight: leftover stew based on a West African recipe but highly modified: turkey leg, canned tomatoes, zucchini and squash, carrots and celery and onions, with added paste made (by me) of ginger, garlic, and peanuts, and plantains. I'll probably add some greens of some sort, maybe kale since I had spinach earlier.
Since I will have leftover calories I will probably have some ice cream. I also might have a protein bar at some point.
I try to make lunch more often than not, but this is a pretty typical day for when I buy lunch.0
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