Gaining muscle and losing fat

galgenstrick

DanPonting wrote: »

galgenstrick wrote: »

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12761365
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19246357
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17415320

Here are some studies that show eating low carbs does not effect fat loss in any significant way. So having low carb days will not accelerate fat loss any more than eating moderate carbs every day.

Oh hi, Strawman. I didn't mention the rest day low carbs for fat loss now, did I?

Got any studies to prove me wrong about optimising insulin sensitivity? Or any of my other points?

If you want to make a claim about insulin sensitivity improving on high fat days, more so than just eating a moderate dietary fat every day, then it's you that needs to show the research to back your claims. if there is no research to support your claim, then your claim is "Broscience" like @ninerbuff suggested.

DanPonting

galgenstrick wrote: »

If you want to make a claim about insulin sensitivity improving on high fat days, more so than just eating a moderate dietary fat every day, then it's you that needs to show the research to back your claims. if there is no research to support your claim, then your claim is "Broscience" like @ninerbuff suggested.

I wouldn't say it's a claim exactly, since this sorta stuff is pretty common knowledge(maybe not on MFP), but sure.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25527677
"A modest reduction in dietary carbohydrate has beneficial effects on body composition, fat distribution, and glucose metabolism."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19114407
"A calorie-restricted diet, moderately lower in carbohydrate, can lead to weight loss, decreased insulin resistance"


Do you wanna know how you get energy when your liver glycogen is low, and you're not eating carbohydrates?

galgenstrick

DanPonting wrote: »

galgenstrick wrote: »

If you want to make a claim about insulin sensitivity improving on high fat days, more so than just eating a moderate dietary fat every day, then it's you that needs to show the research to back your claims. if there is no research to support your claim, then your claim is "Broscience" like @ninerbuff suggested.

I wouldn't say it's a claim exactly, since this sorta stuff is pretty common knowledge(maybe not on MFP), but sure.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25527677
"A modest reduction in dietary carbohydrate has beneficial effects on body composition, fat distribution, and glucose metabolism."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19114407
"A calorie-restricted diet, moderately lower in carbohydrate, can lead to weight loss, decreased insulin resistance"


Do you wanna know how you get energy when your liver glycogen is low, and you're not eating carbohydrates?

Neither of these has anything to do with carb cycling. Again, how is cycling carbohydrates more beneficial then just eating a moderate amount every day? Your studies are on obese or overweight individuals, who are probably not exercising. Do the benefits those studies suggest apply to people exercising regularly?

3bambi3

DanPonting wrote: »

galgenstrick wrote: »

If you want to make a claim about insulin sensitivity improving on high fat days, more so than just eating a moderate dietary fat every day, then it's you that needs to show the research to back your claims. if there is no research to support your claim, then your claim is "Broscience" like @ninerbuff suggested.

I wouldn't say it's a claim exactly, since this sorta stuff is pretty common knowledge(maybe not on MFP), but sure.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25527677
"A modest reduction in dietary carbohydrate has beneficial effects on body composition, fat distribution, and glucose metabolism."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19114407
"A calorie-restricted diet, moderately lower in carbohydrate, can lead to weight loss, decreased insulin resistance"


Do you wanna know how you get energy when your liver glycogen is low, and you're not eating carbohydrates?

Neither of these studies are talking about carb cycling.

The first one set the lower carb diet at 43% carbs. The second one, at a 40% carb diet. So, those studies don't really support your claims.

galgenstrick

MrM27 wrote: »

Well that was almost interesting.

There's still hope.

rybo

@ajh2133 with full body days you are working the muscle more often. If you are training to get better at something you would never "practice" only 1/week.

Nony_Mouse

arditarose wrote: »

Sarasmaintaining wrote: »

ajh2133 wrote: »

I ultimately want to see my abs. Who doesn't? Haha but thank you @galgenstrick . I know that 25% is healthy. 18% is still healthy though. I think I will try maintenance calories for my age and body fat. I have consulted with my doctor by the way @wanttobefit300 . Because of my genetics and family history she sees no reason to be worried as long as I continue to see her as I progress. Thank you!

I've been looking into this, I believe the technical term for what you're trying to do is called a recomposition/recomp-here's a couple of articles I found, that walk you through the calories/macros
http://blog.myfitnesspal.com/the-basics-of-body-recomposition-how-to-lose-fat-gain-muscle-at-the-same-time/

http://blog.myfitnesspal.com/the-basics-of-body-recomposition-macronutrient-calculations-to-lose-fat-and-gain-muscle/

The second article walks you through the different macro ratios between your training days and rest days. While protein stays about the same, there's a big difference between carbs/fat depending on which day it is. I've crunched my numbers using the calculation and I don't know if I'm ready to go this route yet-especially the high amount of protein you need to consume. I also am using body-weight exercises, and not using heavy weights, so I don't know if it's even worth doing for me. But, it sounds like it might be something that would work well for you?

I've read these links before I'm always left feeling overwhelmed. Like do I really need to eat 199 grams of protein on my training days?! ( 1.5 X bodyweight). That seems ridiculous. And I don't want to to cycle any carbs or calories.

Yeah, that is a lot of protein! I'd have to double what I'm eating now. Obviously it will go up a bit once I hit maintenance (though the temptation to eat all those extra cals in gelato is strong ), but nowhere near that much. If that's what's needed for recomp I guess it won't be happening for me.

DanPonting

galgenstrick wrote: »

Neither of these has anything to do with carb cycling. Again, how is cycling carbohydrates more beneficial then just eating a moderate amount every day? Your studies are on obese or overweight individuals, who are probably not exercising. Do the benefits those studies suggest apply to people exercising regularly?

3bambi3 wrote: »

Neither of these studies are talking about carb cycling.

The first one set the lower carb diet at 43% carbs. The second one, at a 40% carb diet. So, those studies don't really support your claims.

Those studies were to show the relationship between a reduction in carbs and an increase in insulin sensitivity, not carb cycling. My carb cycling suggestion comes from anecdote, and stuff I've read/heard from the likes of Phil Learney, Milos Sarcev, Lyle Mcdonald, etc. The main theory being that cycling macronutrients is one way of delaying metabolic adaptations, when in a hypo/hypercaloric state.

I don't see how obesity makes it less relevant. Everyone who doesn't walk around at 8-10% bodyfat naturally, will have insulin/leptin resistance to some degree. Which to me means that everyone can increase their insulin sensitivity, which, as shown, a reduction in carbs will do.


Now, nutrient timing. My thoughts for nutrient timing come from what I've heard from people who I'd deem to be a credible source, like people outlined above. After an overnight fast, you'll typically have low blood glucose and depleted glycogen stores, to what extent varies on an individual basis. As we all know, insulin inhibits fat oxidisation. Without the presence of carbohydrates, you body will switch to using your glucagon pathway, as opposed to insulin. Insulin and glucagon are like ying and yang, your body is constantly striving for glucose homeostasis. When one is secreted, the other is inhibited.
Increased glucagon levels allows a catabolic process to start which will enable the regulation of blood glucose levels, by glycogenolysis or gluconeogenesis. Glucagon can be classed as a catabolic hormone and it's main function is to break down metabolites to be used for energy, allowing us to utilise fatty acids as energy.
To me it seems logical that fat loss will be most optimal if before the workout you're in a catabolic state, utilising those fatty acids for energy, and then the consumption of carbohydrates post workout will put you in an anabolic state, since insulin will increase metabolism and anabolism, through the stimulation of glucose uptake. Therefore, throughout the day you have a fat burning period and muscle building period, all just by manipulating your macronutrients, and utilising energy source as/when you need them.
Anyone with a basic understating of nutrition and endocrinology, will be able to grasp these concepts.

arditarose

Nony_Mouse wrote: »

arditarose wrote: »

Sarasmaintaining wrote: »

ajh2133 wrote: »

I ultimately want to see my abs. Who doesn't? Haha but thank you @galgenstrick . I know that 25% is healthy. 18% is still healthy though. I think I will try maintenance calories for my age and body fat. I have consulted with my doctor by the way @wanttobefit300 . Because of my genetics and family history she sees no reason to be worried as long as I continue to see her as I progress. Thank you!

I've been looking into this, I believe the technical term for what you're trying to do is called a recomposition/recomp-here's a couple of articles I found, that walk you through the calories/macros
http://blog.myfitnesspal.com/the-basics-of-body-recomposition-how-to-lose-fat-gain-muscle-at-the-same-time/

http://blog.myfitnesspal.com/the-basics-of-body-recomposition-macronutrient-calculations-to-lose-fat-and-gain-muscle/

The second article walks you through the different macro ratios between your training days and rest days. While protein stays about the same, there's a big difference between carbs/fat depending on which day it is. I've crunched my numbers using the calculation and I don't know if I'm ready to go this route yet-especially the high amount of protein you need to consume. I also am using body-weight exercises, and not using heavy weights, so I don't know if it's even worth doing for me. But, it sounds like it might be something that would work well for you?

I've read these links before I'm always left feeling overwhelmed. Like do I really need to eat 199 grams of protein on my training days?! ( 1.5 X bodyweight). That seems ridiculous. And I don't want to to cycle any carbs or calories.

Yeah, that is a lot of protein! I'd have to double what I'm eating now. Obviously it will go up a bit once I hit maintenance (though the temptation to eat all those extra cals in gelato is strong ), but nowhere near that much. If that's what's needed for recomp I guess it won't be happening for me.

I really don't think it's necessary. I'm hitting 140-150 grams of protein per day at 133 lbs and think even that is high.

Nony_Mouse

arditarose wrote: »

Nony_Mouse wrote: »

arditarose wrote: »

Sarasmaintaining wrote: »

ajh2133 wrote: »

I ultimately want to see my abs. Who doesn't? Haha but thank you @galgenstrick . I know that 25% is healthy. 18% is still healthy though. I think I will try maintenance calories for my age and body fat. I have consulted with my doctor by the way @wanttobefit300 . Because of my genetics and family history she sees no reason to be worried as long as I continue to see her as I progress. Thank you!

I've been looking into this, I believe the technical term for what you're trying to do is called a recomposition/recomp-here's a couple of articles I found, that walk you through the calories/macros
http://blog.myfitnesspal.com/the-basics-of-body-recomposition-how-to-lose-fat-gain-muscle-at-the-same-time/

http://blog.myfitnesspal.com/the-basics-of-body-recomposition-macronutrient-calculations-to-lose-fat-and-gain-muscle/

The second article walks you through the different macro ratios between your training days and rest days. While protein stays about the same, there's a big difference between carbs/fat depending on which day it is. I've crunched my numbers using the calculation and I don't know if I'm ready to go this route yet-especially the high amount of protein you need to consume. I also am using body-weight exercises, and not using heavy weights, so I don't know if it's even worth doing for me. But, it sounds like it might be something that would work well for you?

I've read these links before I'm always left feeling overwhelmed. Like do I really need to eat 199 grams of protein on my training days?! ( 1.5 X bodyweight). That seems ridiculous. And I don't want to to cycle any carbs or calories.

Yeah, that is a lot of protein! I'd have to double what I'm eating now. Obviously it will go up a bit once I hit maintenance (though the temptation to eat all those extra cals in gelato is strong ), but nowhere near that much. If that's what's needed for recomp I guess it won't be happening for me.

I really don't think it's necessary. I'm hitting 140-150 grams of protein per day at 133 lbs and think even that is high.

Yeah, I don't think it's necessary either. I guess I'll find out in a couple of months when I hit maintenance/recomp!