Getting enough protein?

lemurcat12

EvanKeel wrote: »

sixxpoint wrote: »

RodaRose wrote: »

Calculate how many grams of protein you need based on Lean Bodyweight.

Which can be confusing for some people and inaccurate if they undershoot/overshoot.

1 gram protein per 1 lb. lean bodyweight will roughly be identical to 0.80 grams per 1 lb. bodyweight, which is a more simple formula and just as accurate.

But how close to the norm do you have to be for that to be true? I mean, I presume that basing anything off bodyweight is going to get increasingly inaccurate as someone goes further toward the obese end end of the spectrum.

This is why I like to recommend .8 grams per goal bodyweight for women. Or just roughly estimate or do .6-.8 grams per lb of bodyweight, which is probably fine and it's doesn't have to be that on the nose.

EvanKeel

sixxpoint wrote: »

EvanKeel wrote: »

sixxpoint wrote: »

EvanKeel wrote: »

sixxpoint wrote: »

RodaRose wrote: »

Calculate how many grams of protein you need based on Lean Bodyweight.

Which can be confusing for some people and inaccurate if they undershoot/overshoot.

1 gram protein per 1 lb. lean bodyweight will roughly be identical to 0.80 grams per 1 lb. bodyweight, which is a more simple formula and just as accurate.

But how close to the norm do you have to be for that to be true? I mean, I presume that basing anything off bodyweight is going to get increasingly inaccurate as someone goes further toward the obese end end of the spectrum.

I'm currently 207 lbs. So, 165g of protein seems reasonable.

But

If I'm 280lbs (and the difference is mostly fat), then I'd be at 224 g of prot daily, which seems unnecessary.

Not saying you're wrong to suggest that method, but there probably should be a caveat for people on the extremes.

165 grams is actually not unreasonable for your weight. That's what you should be getting. I'm 166 lbs. and I get 134 g/day.

Unless you're morbidly obese, the 0.80 g/lb. guideline is accurate.

Yes, thank you for agreeing with the entirety of my post...I guess? Perhaps you misread it, or I don't understand the intent of your response.

I understood you. I was agreeing with you and made a point to emphasize your point for others ITT. If you're anoerexic or morbidly obese, there are likely going to be different protein guidelines. You should consult with your doctor if you fall within those extremes. Going by lean body mass could still be quite inaccurate for that crowd.

If we look at the people who are attempting to lose fat, I suspect that the number of people who benefit from eating more than say..170g prot/day is significantly lower than the number of people for whom that formula (0.8g per lb of bodyweight) advises to consume noticeably more than 170g of protein. And many of these people wouldn't necessarily be told by their physicians that they're morbidly obese. They'd probably be told something like "Ehh, we both know you should probably lose 60 lbs, right?" That's if they see a doctor at all for weight-related issues.

That's purely conjecture on my part, and I only bring it up because I see people complaining about having to eat unnecessary amounts of protein.

So while having a conversation of LBM may not be necessary for simple cases, I think it's worth noting for those people who look at the amount of protein their goals give and wonder how they're supposed to eat that much.

sixxpoint

Peer-reviewed, journal published research shows that 0.80 grams per pound of total bodyweight is the very high end of intake that might optimize muscle development/retention, with most research showing much lower intake is sufficient to optimize such outcomes, even in professional bodybuilders.

One of the more thorough studies done in 2011, italicized below, showed that after 1.8 g/kg of body there is no evidence of increased muscle protein synthesis rate for sedentary, endurance or strength athletes. Eating more is unnecessary and possibly a waste of money (since protein is the most expensive macro in supermarkets).

200 lb. person... 1.8 g/kg total bodyweight = 163 grams protein per day
200 lb. person... 0.8 g/lb total bodyweight = 160 grams protein per day

These figures are roughly the same and are the basis for the majority of studies done on protein intake.

To learn more, please review the following:

Tarnopolsky et al. (1992) observed no differences in whole body protein synthesis or indexes of lean body mass in strength athletes consuming either 0.64g/lb or 1.10g/lb over a 2 week period. Protein oxidation did increase in the high protein group, indicating a nutrient overload.

Walberg et al. (1988) found that 0.73g/lb was sufficient to maintain positive nitrogen balance in cutting weightlifters over a 7 day time period.

Tarnopolsky et al. (1988) found that only 0.37g/lb was required to maintain positive nitrogen balance in elite bodybuilders (over 5 years of experience, possible previous use of androgens) over a 10 day period. 0.45g/lb was sufficient to maintain lean body mass in bodybuilders over a 2 week period. The authors suggested that 0.55g/lb was sufficient for bodybuilders.

Lemon et al. (1992) found no differences in muscle mass or strength gains in novice bodybuilders consuming either 0.61g/lb or 1.19g/lb over a 4 week period. Based on nitrogen balance data, the authors recommended 0.75g/lb.

Hoffman et al. (2006) found no differences in body composition, strength or resting hormonal concentrations in strength athletes consuming either 0.77g/lb or >0.91g/lb over a 3 month period.


Also see:

Effect of protein intake on strength, body composition and endocrine changes in strength/power athletes. Hoffman JR, Ratamess NA, Kang J, Falvo MJ, Faigenbaum AD. J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2006 Dec 13;3:12-8.

Macronutrient content of a hypoenergy diet affects nitrogen retention and muscle function in weight lifters. Walberg JL, Leidy MK, Sturgill DJ, Hinkle DE, Ritchey SJ, Sebolt DR. Int J Sports Med. 1988 Aug;9(4):261-6.

Protein requirements and muscle mass/strength changes during intensive training in novice bodybuilders. Lemon PW, Tarnopolsky MA, MacDougall JD, Atkinson SA. J Appl Physiol. 1992 Aug;73(2):767-75.

Influence of protein intake and training status on nitrogen balance and lean body mass. Tarnopolsky MA, MacDougall JD, Atkinson SA. J Appl Physiol. 1988 Jan;64(1):187-93.

Dietary protein for athletes: From requirements to optimum adaptation. Phillips SM, Van Loon LJ. J Sports Sci. 2011;29 Suppl 1:S29-38.

Protein and amino acid metabolism during and after exercise and the effects of nutrition. Rennie MJ, Tipton KD. Annu Rev Nutr. 2000;20:457-83.

Hartman, J. W., Moore, D. R., & Phillips, S. M. (2006). Resistance training reduces whole-body protein turnover and improves net protein retention in untrained young males. Applied Physiology, Nutrition and Metabolism, 31, 557–564.

Moore, D. R., Del Bel, N. C., Nizi, K. I., Hartman, J. W., Tang, J. E., Armstrong, D. et al. (2007). Resistance training reduces fasted- and fed-state leucine turnover and increases dietary nitrogen retention in previously untrained young men. Journal of Nutrition, 137, 985–991.

Effects of exercise on dietary protein requirements. Lemon PW. Int J Sport Nutr. 1998 Dec;8(4):426-47.

Effects of high-calorie supplements on body composition and muscular strength following resistance training. Rozenek R, Ward P, Long S, Garhammer J. J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 2002 Sep;42(3):340-7.

Increased protein maintains nitrogen balance during exercise-induced energy deficit. Pikosky MA, Smith TJ, Grediagin A, Castaneda-Sceppa C, Byerley L, Glickman EL, Young AJ. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2008 Mar;40(3):505-12.

Dietary carbohydrate-to-fat ratio: influence on whole-body nitrogen retention, substrate utilization, and hormone response in healthy male subjects. McCargar LJ, Clandinin MT, Belcastro AN, Walker K. Am J Clin Nutr. 1989 Jun;49(6):1169-78.

Macronutrient Intakes as Determinants of Dietary Protein and Amino Acid Adequacy. Millward, DJ. J. Nutr. June 1, 2004 vol. 134 no. 6 1588S-1596S.

EvanKeel

Ok...

Well, good. I'm glad we seem to be in agreement that your previous recommendation of .8g per lb of bodyweight is perhaps not optimal. At least that's true if stand by your statement of:

Peer-reviewed, journal published research shows that 0.80 grams per pound of total bodyweight is the very high end of intake that might optimize muscle development/retention, with most research showing much lower intake is sufficient to optimize such outcomes, even in professional bodybuilders.

Instead we just do as others have suggested and give a range.

EDIT: Upon review, I see you have kind of already done that. It just kind of gets lost.

sixxpoint

EvanKeel wrote: »

Ok...

Well, good. I'm glad we seem to be in agreement that your previous recommendation of .8g per lb of bodyweight is perhaps not optimal. At least that's true if stand by your statement of:

Peer-reviewed, journal published research shows that 0.80 grams per pound of total bodyweight is the very high end of intake that might optimize muscle development/retention, with most research showing much lower intake is sufficient to optimize such outcomes, even in professional bodybuilders.

Instead we just do as others have suggested and give a range.

No. We are not. While some studies argue that 0.60 g/lb. is sufficient, others suggest that 0.80 g/lb. is sufficient.

I do give a range of 0.60-0.80 g/lb. in the majority of my posts on the matter. You're welcome to search that post history if it pleases you. Personally, I feel that 0.80 g/lb is a better target because so many people count their calories/macros incorrectly. Not to mention, the numerous flaws in the database as far as reporting accurate figures.

EvanKeel

sixxpoint wrote: »

EvanKeel wrote: »

Ok...

Well, good. I'm glad we seem to be in agreement that your previous recommendation of .8g per lb of bodyweight is perhaps not optimal. At least that's true if stand by your statement of:

Peer-reviewed, journal published research shows that 0.80 grams per pound of total bodyweight is the very high end of intake that might optimize muscle development/retention, with most research showing much lower intake is sufficient to optimize such outcomes, even in professional bodybuilders.

Instead we just do as others have suggested and give a range.

No. We are not. While some studies argue that 0.60 g/lb. is sufficient, others suggest that 0.80 g/lb. is sufficient.

I do give a range of 0.60-0.80 g/lb. in the majority of my posts on the matter. Personally, I feel that 0.80 g/lb is a better target because so many people count their calories/macros incorrectly. Not to mention, the numerous flaws in the database as far as reporting accurate figures.

So what you recommend is different than what you actually believe?

For clarity I realize the difference between .8 and the range of .6-.8g might seem insignificant, but the actual result in grams of protein is something that gets discussed.

sixxpoint

EvanKeel wrote: »

sixxpoint wrote: »

EvanKeel wrote: »

Ok...

Well, good. I'm glad we seem to be in agreement that your previous recommendation of .8g per lb of bodyweight is perhaps not optimal. At least that's true if stand by your statement of:

Peer-reviewed, journal published research shows that 0.80 grams per pound of total bodyweight is the very high end of intake that might optimize muscle development/retention, with most research showing much lower intake is sufficient to optimize such outcomes, even in professional bodybuilders.

Instead we just do as others have suggested and give a range.

No. We are not. While some studies argue that 0.60 g/lb. is sufficient, others suggest that 0.80 g/lb. is sufficient.

I do give a range of 0.60-0.80 g/lb. in the majority of my posts on the matter. Personally, I feel that 0.80 g/lb is a better target because so many people count their calories/macros incorrectly. Not to mention, the numerous flaws in the database as far as reporting accurate figures.

So what you recommend is different than what you actually believe?

I never inferred that, and therefore your question is moot. You are confusing my recommendation of dietary fat, which is lower with protein, which is higher... these are two separate recommendations. Pay closer attention to what I labeled as the recs for protein and fat.

Moving on as to not derail this person's thread... Pm me if you wish.