Non tracking methods and behaviors that may help while tracking
SideSteel
Posts: 11,068 Member
I'm copy and pasting a reply I made from our Eat, Train, Progress forum group. This was originally regarding fat loss without tracking calories. I'm posting this here primarily because I think some of these behaviors can be quite beneficial even when calories are being tracked.
A few updates on the below: Regarding the Precision Nutrition link, I disagree with somatotyping entirely but the idea of using the hands to represent serving sizes when you're using non tracking methods, is sound in my opinion.
Anyway, here's the post:
So this will be somewhat of a long post and I'll also be referencing this in a few different places and I only mention that in case anything appears out of context.
Let me first be clear that while I do coach people and I've had a few people who are now successful without tracking, I'm not claiming to know everything about this nor am I suggesting these methods work for everyone. This is not a complete list, it is just a list of behaviors and tools that I've experimented with for myself and in varying capacities for clients.
I'm also much better at talking about things as opposed to writing them because my ability to organize my thoughts in a reader-friendly manner isn't great, my apologies in advance.
Things that I think are important for non tracking dieting:
- Establish rather consistent meal frequency/meal distribution. I think it's generally going to be better on adherence and possibly better on hunger management.
- I find that MOST people tend to do well with 3 to 4 meals per day and 0 to 2 snacks. Please accept "MOST" as the generalization that it is. Sure, there are going to be exceptions. I'd initially start with 0-1.
- I find that with non tracking methods, it's best to limit, but not necessarily eliminate, energy dense, hyper-palatable foods. Additionally, my preferred method for limiting this has to do with frequency and not quantity. To develop this habit I would start by loosely tracking junk food frequency in a column and identify whether or not there's a need to reduce that figure to bring energy intake down.
- Related to the previous paragraph, I find that it's useful to FOCUS on eating whole and minimally refined foods. Whole foods will promote satiety to a much larger extent compared to heavily refined foods. I'm differentiating because this is inclusive thinking. SEEK OUT whole foods and look to include them in your diet.
- Limit (significantly in my opinion) calories that come in liquid form. To be clear, these are not inherently bad, but they can add up in a hurry and seldom contribute significantly to satiety.
- I find that eating protein with each main meal is a great move to promote satiety. While I don't agree with PN on all of their material, I think they're excellent in their suggestions for meal construction and I'll link that below. I would modify protein needs and carbohydrate needs based on the individual but I would stick to the "hand size guide" and general meal construction idea.
- I find that it's very valuable to identify whether someone gets greater satiety out of higher carbs vs higher fats. I start this with simple questions and then observe and adjust as needed. Easier said than done and I'm still working on this from a coaching standpoint. I know that I absolutely prefer higher CHO, and that higher fat meals for me basically just mean extra calories in a hurry so I tend to keep fats on the lower end for myself.
- I find substantial value in periodically asking myself "am I hungry or am I eating for another reason" especially when I find myself eating or wanting to eat when it's not a typical meal time. The purpose of this is to just build awareness around food intake and hedonic hunger.
- I recommend several servings of fruit and vegetables per day, especially fibrous vegetables and high satiety foods like mixed berries for example. I will never tell a client "go eat broccoli and berries" because that goes beyond my scope of practice but I'll certainly hammer on the importance of vegetables and fiber for promoting satiety and I'll suggest various food sources and possible ways to prep that food that I find enjoyable. One example would be plain greek yogurt with a scoop of whey and 1 to 2 servings of frozen mixed berries (very high satiety, high protein, sweet tasting, frozen so it's dessert like, high in micros, etc).
- Pay attention to differences in satiety among food items and this is something that it more of a finer point that in a coaching context I'd use later on (after some more basic things are set in place). But for example, I get WAY more satiety per calorie from potatoes than I do from bread.
- This one is HUGE. Manage your food environment in the following ways:
a) Make sure that low satiety, hyper-palatable/ calorie dense food items are not easily accessible and not EASILY VISIBLE. I could go into detail about it but this post is long enough as is. The short of it is, this will potentially reduce the frequency with which you eat these items AND it will potentially reduce the frequency at which your willpower is tested consequently this will potentially reduce dietary stress. At the extreme level you can remove these items from your home entirely. Most people won't need to go that far but at the very least, get them out of sight and less accessible.
b) Make sure that high satiety, low calorie things like fruits and vegetables are prevalent in your environment, easily accessible, and visible. Keep a bowl of fruit within arms reach in your kitchen. Keep vegetables and other low calorie "diet friendly" food items at the front of your refrigerator and take inventory of your cabinets and immediate living space.
- There are other environmental things you can do such as keep food variety limited on a per meal basis (a protein, a starch, a vegetable for example) rather than 3 different proteins, 2 different starches, etc. to reduce food consumption. Eat in non distracted situations. Select slightly smaller serving plates/bowls. If you are eating in a situation where you serve yourself the items on to your plate then eat, eat further away from the serving bowls (keep the serving plates in the kitchen for example, and eat at the table rather than keeping the serving plates on the table with you). Use taller, narrow glasses if you are going to drink calorie containing beverages. And there are additional things, but I find that a and b above are massive and this would also apply to people who track.
Now I'm probably forgetting some other ones since there's really a lot and it's also quite individual. As far as IMPLEMENTATION of this stuff, that's also going to depend on the individual.
For context sake, if you're someone who is completely overwhelmed with tracking and it's driving you nuts, you're probably better off going cold turkey and taking a "bang for your buck" type of approach with respect to habits around food. For most people that's likely to be focusing on meal composition (PN method) along with managing your food environment and sticking to primarily whole foods. That's going to go a long way in blunting hunger and preventing or at least mitigating overeating.
For people who really want to quit tracking but are fearful of weight gain or fearful of giving up the habit, I would do it piecewise and I'll roughly outline the process I use but I don't claim this to be perfect.
- I'd start by taking a week to OBSERVE current meal construction and meal frequency. Many people who track have no idea how often they eat or how their meal distribution tends to land because they're strictly looking at calories and macros.
- I would then start logging at the end of the day instead of the beginning without making any intentional changes to intake.
- I would progress from here to removing a few days per week of logging and I'd start with a few weekdays while still logging on Fri-Sun or Fri-Mon since for most people this tends to be where additional calories enter the diet.
-The last thing I would do would be to pull logging away on the weekend.
In both examples I would still recommend tracking body weight provided you don't have issues using body weight as a metric. Weigh daily (again assuming you have no issues with this) and track averages and let those changes in average weight roughly guide you as to where you are in terms of energy balance.
I'll edit this later if I think of major things I've left out.
One thing to leave people with -- tracking is a great tool for some people in some contexts. It's also not a great choice for some people and if you're one of those people then you should seek to learn ways to either maintain or lose weight (within reason) without tracking. It can take a while -- if you start slowly gaining, realize that a) tracking will always be there for you if you need to return to it temporarily and b) just because you may not nail it in the first few weeks does NOT mean you can't modify your process to eventually learn to eat without logging.
Even if you hate tracking, I think it's good to occasionally log a day here and there to check where you're at, primarily for protein and calories especially if you're beyond novice and actively resistance training.
Finally, calories are and always will be fundamentally at the top of the list when it comes to changes in weight -- but this doesn't mean they must be actively tracked.
Here's the PN article. I don't agree with some of their opinions on calorie counting, but I do think the guide is useful. http://www.precisionnutrition.com/calorie-control-guide
A few updates on the below: Regarding the Precision Nutrition link, I disagree with somatotyping entirely but the idea of using the hands to represent serving sizes when you're using non tracking methods, is sound in my opinion.
Anyway, here's the post:
So this will be somewhat of a long post and I'll also be referencing this in a few different places and I only mention that in case anything appears out of context.
Let me first be clear that while I do coach people and I've had a few people who are now successful without tracking, I'm not claiming to know everything about this nor am I suggesting these methods work for everyone. This is not a complete list, it is just a list of behaviors and tools that I've experimented with for myself and in varying capacities for clients.
I'm also much better at talking about things as opposed to writing them because my ability to organize my thoughts in a reader-friendly manner isn't great, my apologies in advance.
Things that I think are important for non tracking dieting:
- Establish rather consistent meal frequency/meal distribution. I think it's generally going to be better on adherence and possibly better on hunger management.
- I find that MOST people tend to do well with 3 to 4 meals per day and 0 to 2 snacks. Please accept "MOST" as the generalization that it is. Sure, there are going to be exceptions. I'd initially start with 0-1.
- I find that with non tracking methods, it's best to limit, but not necessarily eliminate, energy dense, hyper-palatable foods. Additionally, my preferred method for limiting this has to do with frequency and not quantity. To develop this habit I would start by loosely tracking junk food frequency in a column and identify whether or not there's a need to reduce that figure to bring energy intake down.
- Related to the previous paragraph, I find that it's useful to FOCUS on eating whole and minimally refined foods. Whole foods will promote satiety to a much larger extent compared to heavily refined foods. I'm differentiating because this is inclusive thinking. SEEK OUT whole foods and look to include them in your diet.
- Limit (significantly in my opinion) calories that come in liquid form. To be clear, these are not inherently bad, but they can add up in a hurry and seldom contribute significantly to satiety.
- I find that eating protein with each main meal is a great move to promote satiety. While I don't agree with PN on all of their material, I think they're excellent in their suggestions for meal construction and I'll link that below. I would modify protein needs and carbohydrate needs based on the individual but I would stick to the "hand size guide" and general meal construction idea.
- I find that it's very valuable to identify whether someone gets greater satiety out of higher carbs vs higher fats. I start this with simple questions and then observe and adjust as needed. Easier said than done and I'm still working on this from a coaching standpoint. I know that I absolutely prefer higher CHO, and that higher fat meals for me basically just mean extra calories in a hurry so I tend to keep fats on the lower end for myself.
- I find substantial value in periodically asking myself "am I hungry or am I eating for another reason" especially when I find myself eating or wanting to eat when it's not a typical meal time. The purpose of this is to just build awareness around food intake and hedonic hunger.
- I recommend several servings of fruit and vegetables per day, especially fibrous vegetables and high satiety foods like mixed berries for example. I will never tell a client "go eat broccoli and berries" because that goes beyond my scope of practice but I'll certainly hammer on the importance of vegetables and fiber for promoting satiety and I'll suggest various food sources and possible ways to prep that food that I find enjoyable. One example would be plain greek yogurt with a scoop of whey and 1 to 2 servings of frozen mixed berries (very high satiety, high protein, sweet tasting, frozen so it's dessert like, high in micros, etc).
- Pay attention to differences in satiety among food items and this is something that it more of a finer point that in a coaching context I'd use later on (after some more basic things are set in place). But for example, I get WAY more satiety per calorie from potatoes than I do from bread.
- This one is HUGE. Manage your food environment in the following ways:
a) Make sure that low satiety, hyper-palatable/ calorie dense food items are not easily accessible and not EASILY VISIBLE. I could go into detail about it but this post is long enough as is. The short of it is, this will potentially reduce the frequency with which you eat these items AND it will potentially reduce the frequency at which your willpower is tested consequently this will potentially reduce dietary stress. At the extreme level you can remove these items from your home entirely. Most people won't need to go that far but at the very least, get them out of sight and less accessible.
b) Make sure that high satiety, low calorie things like fruits and vegetables are prevalent in your environment, easily accessible, and visible. Keep a bowl of fruit within arms reach in your kitchen. Keep vegetables and other low calorie "diet friendly" food items at the front of your refrigerator and take inventory of your cabinets and immediate living space.
- There are other environmental things you can do such as keep food variety limited on a per meal basis (a protein, a starch, a vegetable for example) rather than 3 different proteins, 2 different starches, etc. to reduce food consumption. Eat in non distracted situations. Select slightly smaller serving plates/bowls. If you are eating in a situation where you serve yourself the items on to your plate then eat, eat further away from the serving bowls (keep the serving plates in the kitchen for example, and eat at the table rather than keeping the serving plates on the table with you). Use taller, narrow glasses if you are going to drink calorie containing beverages. And there are additional things, but I find that a and b above are massive and this would also apply to people who track.
Now I'm probably forgetting some other ones since there's really a lot and it's also quite individual. As far as IMPLEMENTATION of this stuff, that's also going to depend on the individual.
For context sake, if you're someone who is completely overwhelmed with tracking and it's driving you nuts, you're probably better off going cold turkey and taking a "bang for your buck" type of approach with respect to habits around food. For most people that's likely to be focusing on meal composition (PN method) along with managing your food environment and sticking to primarily whole foods. That's going to go a long way in blunting hunger and preventing or at least mitigating overeating.
For people who really want to quit tracking but are fearful of weight gain or fearful of giving up the habit, I would do it piecewise and I'll roughly outline the process I use but I don't claim this to be perfect.
- I'd start by taking a week to OBSERVE current meal construction and meal frequency. Many people who track have no idea how often they eat or how their meal distribution tends to land because they're strictly looking at calories and macros.
- I would then start logging at the end of the day instead of the beginning without making any intentional changes to intake.
- I would progress from here to removing a few days per week of logging and I'd start with a few weekdays while still logging on Fri-Sun or Fri-Mon since for most people this tends to be where additional calories enter the diet.
-The last thing I would do would be to pull logging away on the weekend.
In both examples I would still recommend tracking body weight provided you don't have issues using body weight as a metric. Weigh daily (again assuming you have no issues with this) and track averages and let those changes in average weight roughly guide you as to where you are in terms of energy balance.
I'll edit this later if I think of major things I've left out.
One thing to leave people with -- tracking is a great tool for some people in some contexts. It's also not a great choice for some people and if you're one of those people then you should seek to learn ways to either maintain or lose weight (within reason) without tracking. It can take a while -- if you start slowly gaining, realize that a) tracking will always be there for you if you need to return to it temporarily and b) just because you may not nail it in the first few weeks does NOT mean you can't modify your process to eventually learn to eat without logging.
Even if you hate tracking, I think it's good to occasionally log a day here and there to check where you're at, primarily for protein and calories especially if you're beyond novice and actively resistance training.
Finally, calories are and always will be fundamentally at the top of the list when it comes to changes in weight -- but this doesn't mean they must be actively tracked.
Here's the PN article. I don't agree with some of their opinions on calorie counting, but I do think the guide is useful. http://www.precisionnutrition.com/calorie-control-guide
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I think it's mostly reasonable.
The only thing I'd question is basically the hiding of hyper-palatable food. I'm sure it would work for some people but, in my view, the world's full of temptations and being prepared to deal with them is more effective than hoping not to be tempted. Plus, I live in a house with a couple of active kids who can still get way with eating just about anything and arranging the food in that way just wouldn't be feasible here. But, again, such an arrangement would probably work better than willpower for some people.0 -
DeguelloTex wrote: »I think it's mostly reasonable.
The only thing I'd question is basically the hiding of hyper-palatable food. I'm sure it would work for some people but, in my view, the world's full of temptations and being prepared to deal with them is more effective than hoping not to be tempted. Plus, I live in a house with a couple of active kids who can still get way with eating just about anything and arranging the food in that way just wouldn't be feasible here. But, again, such an arrangement would probably work better than willpower for some people.
I understand your questioning and it's normal to question it. I'd have to dig for the papers but there's research supporting the environmental impacts (Wansink I believe) and there's additional survey data showing that most people don't think it applies to them.
I think it's profound. Most people think it applies to others and not them.
I think it is the single most underestimated aspect to dieting and that everyone should pay attention to it.0 -
In other words, you are still very susceptible to it even if you don't think you are.
For example if you have the willpower to refuse the open bag of potato chips that's great, but you then had to expend willpower and willpower is a resource. If you never saw the open bag of chips to begin with, you wouldn't have been forced to make that decision and consequently your willpower would be preserved for other choices.0 -
It's definitely worth paying attention to and, again, it would probably work better for some people. But I can leave the Peeps and jellybeans and snickerdoodles and chocolate ice cream right where they because they aren't part of what I've planned to eat... unless, of course, they are. Then again, I also don't stress about stock prices because short term fluctuations aren't important me. Maybe I'm just a special snowflake when it comes to not being distracted from goals.DeguelloTex wrote: »I think it's mostly reasonable.
The only thing I'd question is basically the hiding of hyper-palatable food. I'm sure it would work for some people but, in my view, the world's full of temptations and being prepared to deal with them is more effective than hoping not to be tempted. Plus, I live in a house with a couple of active kids who can still get way with eating just about anything and arranging the food in that way just wouldn't be feasible here. But, again, such an arrangement would probably work better than willpower for some people.
I understand your questioning and it's normal to question it. I'd have to dig for the papers but there's research supporting the environmental impacts (Wansink I believe) and there's additional survey data showing that most people don't think it applies to them.
I think it's profound. Most people think it applies to others and not them.
I think it is the single most underestimated aspect to dieting and that everyone should pay attention to it.0 -
DeguelloTex wrote: »
It's definitely worth paying attention to and, again, it would probably work better for some people. But I can leave the Peeps and jellybeans and snickerdoodles and chocolate ice cream right where they because they aren't part of what I've planned to eat... unless, of course, they are. Then again, I also don't stress about stock prices because short term fluctuations aren't important me. Maybe I'm just a special snowflake when it comes to not being distracted from goals.DeguelloTex wrote: »I think it's mostly reasonable.
The only thing I'd question is basically the hiding of hyper-palatable food. I'm sure it would work for some people but, in my view, the world's full of temptations and being prepared to deal with them is more effective than hoping not to be tempted. Plus, I live in a house with a couple of active kids who can still get way with eating just about anything and arranging the food in that way just wouldn't be feasible here. But, again, such an arrangement would probably work better than willpower for some people.
I understand your questioning and it's normal to question it. I'd have to dig for the papers but there's research supporting the environmental impacts (Wansink I believe) and there's additional survey data showing that most people don't think it applies to them.
I think it's profound. Most people think it applies to others and not them.
I think it is the single most underestimated aspect to dieting and that everyone should pay attention to it.
My belief is that the willpower argument I made earlier still applies.
It's not whether or not you can leave the jelly beans, it's that you're required to choose whether or not to leave them when you see them, and this choice is an act of willpower and willpower is finite.
This of course assumes that you enjoy jelly beans. If it was a plate of cat turds this wouldn't apply.
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Thank you for this post. Informative and summarized alot of what I'm finding is working for me. I didn't track this week out of curiosity- could I continue to make good choices without tracking? And yes I can! I know tracking won't be a long term lifestyle for me but many of those tips will be.0
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DeguelloTex wrote: »
It's definitely worth paying attention to and, again, it would probably work better for some people. But I can leave the Peeps and jellybeans and snickerdoodles and chocolate ice cream right where they because they aren't part of what I've planned to eat... unless, of course, they are. Then again, I also don't stress about stock prices because short term fluctuations aren't important me. Maybe I'm just a special snowflake when it comes to not being distracted from goals.DeguelloTex wrote: »I think it's mostly reasonable.
The only thing I'd question is basically the hiding of hyper-palatable food. I'm sure it would work for some people but, in my view, the world's full of temptations and being prepared to deal with them is more effective than hoping not to be tempted. Plus, I live in a house with a couple of active kids who can still get way with eating just about anything and arranging the food in that way just wouldn't be feasible here. But, again, such an arrangement would probably work better than willpower for some people.
I understand your questioning and it's normal to question it. I'd have to dig for the papers but there's research supporting the environmental impacts (Wansink I believe) and there's additional survey data showing that most people don't think it applies to them.
I think it's profound. Most people think it applies to others and not them.
I think it is the single most underestimated aspect to dieting and that everyone should pay attention to it.
My belief is that the willpower argument I made earlier still applies.
It's not whether or not you can leave the jelly beans, it's that you're required to choose whether or not to leave them when you see them, and this choice is an act of willpower and willpower is finite.
This of course assumes that you enjoy jelly beans. If it was a plate of cat turds this wouldn't apply.
Great post, very solid. Thanks.
As for "hiding" treats, I simply keep them in the pantry in my kitchen instead of out in the open on a counter. It's just not in line of sight when I'm going around.
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Interesting information and food to chew on
I know it is a generalization but I disagree that people who track aren't closely familiar with when how often they eat and distribution. I'm very I'm tune with this. Then again I don't see this as cico vs clean eating like many members apparently do. I think a combination of tracking AND eating high satiating foods is a winning strategy. 0 -
Very helpful post. Nice job. It's interesting because I actually do implement all of the above suggestions, but I track. From the past, I know that several months of tracking becomes mentally exhausting for me. I have toyed with the idea of not tracking, but I do not think it's feasible for me at this time. I really like all that you said.0
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I chose once, when I plan my day. I don't have to choose each time. Maybe that's the difference.DeguelloTex wrote: »
It's definitely worth paying attention to and, again, it would probably work better for some people. But I can leave the Peeps and jellybeans and snickerdoodles and chocolate ice cream right where they because they aren't part of what I've planned to eat... unless, of course, they are. Then again, I also don't stress about stock prices because short term fluctuations aren't important me. Maybe I'm just a special snowflake when it comes to not being distracted from goals.DeguelloTex wrote: »I think it's mostly reasonable.
The only thing I'd question is basically the hiding of hyper-palatable food. I'm sure it would work for some people but, in my view, the world's full of temptations and being prepared to deal with them is more effective than hoping not to be tempted. Plus, I live in a house with a couple of active kids who can still get way with eating just about anything and arranging the food in that way just wouldn't be feasible here. But, again, such an arrangement would probably work better than willpower for some people.
I understand your questioning and it's normal to question it. I'd have to dig for the papers but there's research supporting the environmental impacts (Wansink I believe) and there's additional survey data showing that most people don't think it applies to them.
I think it's profound. Most people think it applies to others and not them.
I think it is the single most underestimated aspect to dieting and that everyone should pay attention to it.
My belief is that the willpower argument I made earlier still applies.
It's not whether or not you can leave the jelly beans, it's that you're required to choose whether or not to leave them when you see them, and this choice is an act of willpower and willpower is finite.
This of course assumes that you enjoy jelly beans. If it was a plate of cat turds this wouldn't apply.
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DeguelloTex wrote: »
I chose once, when I plan my day. I don't have to choose each time. Maybe that's the difference.DeguelloTex wrote: »
It's definitely worth paying attention to and, again, it would probably work better for some people. But I can leave the Peeps and jellybeans and snickerdoodles and chocolate ice cream right where they because they aren't part of what I've planned to eat... unless, of course, they are. Then again, I also don't stress about stock prices because short term fluctuations aren't important me. Maybe I'm just a special snowflake when it comes to not being distracted from goals.DeguelloTex wrote: »I think it's mostly reasonable.
The only thing I'd question is basically the hiding of hyper-palatable food. I'm sure it would work for some people but, in my view, the world's full of temptations and being prepared to deal with them is more effective than hoping not to be tempted. Plus, I live in a house with a couple of active kids who can still get way with eating just about anything and arranging the food in that way just wouldn't be feasible here. But, again, such an arrangement would probably work better than willpower for some people.
I understand your questioning and it's normal to question it. I'd have to dig for the papers but there's research supporting the environmental impacts (Wansink I believe) and there's additional survey data showing that most people don't think it applies to them.
I think it's profound. Most people think it applies to others and not them.
I think it is the single most underestimated aspect to dieting and that everyone should pay attention to it.
My belief is that the willpower argument I made earlier still applies.
It's not whether or not you can leave the jelly beans, it's that you're required to choose whether or not to leave them when you see them, and this choice is an act of willpower and willpower is finite.
This of course assumes that you enjoy jelly beans. If it was a plate of cat turds this wouldn't apply.
You choose whenever you see food because you have to. It isn't necessarily a conscious decision.
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SS: I disagree! You ARE good at writing this stuff. Best thread of 2015. THIS should be a sticky.0
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Thanks
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If it isn't conscious -- I always love the "you're doing it, you just don't know it" argument -- it certainly isn't using up any of my willpower, so it doesn't matter. And, even if it does matter, apparently my finite supply of willpower is sufficient to have gotten me through 111 pounds of loss.DeguelloTex wrote: »
I chose once, when I plan my day. I don't have to choose each time. Maybe that's the difference.DeguelloTex wrote: »
It's definitely worth paying attention to and, again, it would probably work better for some people. But I can leave the Peeps and jellybeans and snickerdoodles and chocolate ice cream right where they because they aren't part of what I've planned to eat... unless, of course, they are. Then again, I also don't stress about stock prices because short term fluctuations aren't important me. Maybe I'm just a special snowflake when it comes to not being distracted from goals.DeguelloTex wrote: »I think it's mostly reasonable.
The only thing I'd question is basically the hiding of hyper-palatable food. I'm sure it would work for some people but, in my view, the world's full of temptations and being prepared to deal with them is more effective than hoping not to be tempted. Plus, I live in a house with a couple of active kids who can still get way with eating just about anything and arranging the food in that way just wouldn't be feasible here. But, again, such an arrangement would probably work better than willpower for some people.
I understand your questioning and it's normal to question it. I'd have to dig for the papers but there's research supporting the environmental impacts (Wansink I believe) and there's additional survey data showing that most people don't think it applies to them.
I think it's profound. Most people think it applies to others and not them.
I think it is the single most underestimated aspect to dieting and that everyone should pay attention to it.
My belief is that the willpower argument I made earlier still applies.
It's not whether or not you can leave the jelly beans, it's that you're required to choose whether or not to leave them when you see them, and this choice is an act of willpower and willpower is finite.
This of course assumes that you enjoy jelly beans. If it was a plate of cat turds this wouldn't apply.
You choose whenever you see food because you have to. It isn't necessarily a conscious decision.
Honestly, it was a good start, but "I know your thought processes better than you do, and they support my premises" might as well be an argument about whether God exists.
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DeguelloTex wrote: »
If it isn't conscious -- I always love the "you're doing it, you just don't know it" argument -- it certainly isn't using up any of my willpower, so it doesn't matter. And, even if it does matter, apparently my finite supply of willpower is sufficient to have gotten me through 111 pounds of loss.DeguelloTex wrote: »
I chose once, when I plan my day. I don't have to choose each time. Maybe that's the difference.DeguelloTex wrote: »
It's definitely worth paying attention to and, again, it would probably work better for some people. But I can leave the Peeps and jellybeans and snickerdoodles and chocolate ice cream right where they because they aren't part of what I've planned to eat... unless, of course, they are. Then again, I also don't stress about stock prices because short term fluctuations aren't important me. Maybe I'm just a special snowflake when it comes to not being distracted from goals.DeguelloTex wrote: »I think it's mostly reasonable.
The only thing I'd question is basically the hiding of hyper-palatable food. I'm sure it would work for some people but, in my view, the world's full of temptations and being prepared to deal with them is more effective than hoping not to be tempted. Plus, I live in a house with a couple of active kids who can still get way with eating just about anything and arranging the food in that way just wouldn't be feasible here. But, again, such an arrangement would probably work better than willpower for some people.
I understand your questioning and it's normal to question it. I'd have to dig for the papers but there's research supporting the environmental impacts (Wansink I believe) and there's additional survey data showing that most people don't think it applies to them.
I think it's profound. Most people think it applies to others and not them.
I think it is the single most underestimated aspect to dieting and that everyone should pay attention to it.
My belief is that the willpower argument I made earlier still applies.
It's not whether or not you can leave the jelly beans, it's that you're required to choose whether or not to leave them when you see them, and this choice is an act of willpower and willpower is finite.
This of course assumes that you enjoy jelly beans. If it was a plate of cat turds this wouldn't apply.
You choose whenever you see food because you have to. It isn't necessarily a conscious decision.
Honestly, it was a good start, but "I know your thought processes better than you do, and they support my premises" might as well be an argument about whether God exists.
Apparently you disagree.
I'm fine with that.
Have a nice day.0 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »SS: I disagree! You ARE good at writing this stuff. Best thread of 2015. THIS should be a sticky.
I agree. I read this post through 2 or 3 times on ETP.
I weighed and measured through an 80lb loss only to burn out one day and gain half of it back. Now that I am trying to re-lose I know that I have to do it differently this time even if that means losing it a little slower.
Worrying about every little gram of cucumber or tomato brought out an OCD side of me that I didn't know existed. So now I am tracking and only weighing the calorie dense items.
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In...0
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For those of you interested in where some of the willpower and environmental ideas come from, check out Baumeister's work on ego depletion and Wansink's research on food behaviors. I find it fascinating and profoundly useful/applicable although I admittedly have spent more of my time reading Wansink's material vs Roy's.
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DeguelloTex wrote: »
It's definitely worth paying attention to and, again, it would probably work better for some people. But I can leave the Peeps and jellybeans and snickerdoodles and chocolate ice cream right where they because they aren't part of what I've planned to eat... unless, of course, they are. Then again, I also don't stress about stock prices because short term fluctuations aren't important me. Maybe I'm just a special snowflake when it comes to not being distracted from goals.DeguelloTex wrote: »I think it's mostly reasonable.
The only thing I'd question is basically the hiding of hyper-palatable food. I'm sure it would work for some people but, in my view, the world's full of temptations and being prepared to deal with them is more effective than hoping not to be tempted. Plus, I live in a house with a couple of active kids who can still get way with eating just about anything and arranging the food in that way just wouldn't be feasible here. But, again, such an arrangement would probably work better than willpower for some people.
I understand your questioning and it's normal to question it. I'd have to dig for the papers but there's research supporting the environmental impacts (Wansink I believe) and there's additional survey data showing that most people don't think it applies to them.
I think it's profound. Most people think it applies to others and not them.
I think it is the single most underestimated aspect to dieting and that everyone should pay attention to it.
Don't you think however some of it depends on why you overeat?
I don't necessarily over eat because of appetite but instead it is because of boredom...habit...emotional. I can do fine for weeks...one serving and then done. Then all of a sudden one day that one serving turns in to 2...the 3...then the whole box/bag. For me it is just better not to have it in the house.
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Great post. This is what works for many people long-term. All these strategies have been helpful to me.
Re willpower - I *could* expend mental energy making decisions about food four times a day, but I'd rather use that energy on other things. It really is easier to just go on autopilot once you figure out your ways. Not keeping high-cal, low-value food in the house makes willpower a non-issue for food, which is as it should be, in my opinion. I like food, but ultimately it's fuel for other things. Why set yourself up for failure or even just stress by keeping that stuff around?
Humans differ in terms of "willpower", but not that much. The issues still apply at some point. Especially when it comes to something as basic as food.0 -
Great post, thanks!0
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My reason for limiting access to high-cal, low-nutrient foods: decision fatigue, which studies have shown to impair judgment for additional decisions.
I make dozens of critical decisions daily in my professional life. I try to avoid having to make too many elsewhere. So I would rather decide once on my weekly shopping trip that I am not eating potato chips this week than having to decide at each meal or snack time whether or not to have chips.
Plus, when I get home from a really bad day at work, I'm not surrounded by opportunities to make bad decisions.0 -
PeachyPlum wrote: »My reason for limiting access to high-cal, low-nutrient foods: decision fatigue, which studies have shown to impair judgment for additional decisions.
I make dozens of critical decisions daily in my professional life. I try to avoid having to make too many elsewhere. So I would rather decide once on my weekly shopping trip that I am not eating potato chips this week than having to decide at each meal or snack time whether or not to have chips.
Plus, when I get home from a really bad day at work, I'm not surrounded by opportunities to make bad decisions.
Totally agree with this and this is why it can be beneficial to utilize environmental control even if you are using a food scale and tracking calories.0 -
A few things that have helped me...
Recognizing what time of the day that I seem to give in...usually that is around 4PM. What I am doing is moving my breakfast back so that I can move lunch to around 2PM. Hopefully avoiding that late afternoon craving.
The other thing that has helped is using smaller plates...I can't pile too much on that way. Another is I found some inexpensive small divided storage containers. One compartment will hold approximately a serving of meat and the other holds about two servings of vegetables.
I also have a serving spoon that holds about 50g of most vegetables so it is easy to estimate about how much is on my plate.
I still figure the calories and serving sizes in my recipes so that I have an idea about how much I am eating.
I have been doing this for about 2 weeks and lost 2lbs during that time.0 -
Amazing post! MY personal experience is that i from day one knew that i did not want to spend logging the rest of my life, actually in my first 3 month i did not log one single day ever, why? Because i wanted to properly learn to eat without developing any kind of dependecy with the logging part, i went tru trial and errol but i learned so much! And built habits for life, i lost 30 lbs in those 3 months and then by curiosity and very irregular i now log.
I see this here too commonly, some people that have being using mfp for years but dont know how to function without the app, you sit them in a table of food and still strugle with how to behave,
I dont know, of course each to their own, everyone should do what works for them but i find it very useful at the long term to excersice some of the things of your post.
Kary.0 -
Great tips, thanks for sharing!
I read this book "The Power of Habit" by Charles Duhigg and was really fascinated by it. One of the focuses was how it's important to form good habits so you don't have to rely on making all these tiny subconscious decisions throughout the day. It's remarkable how many decisions our brains make every day without us realizing! He mentioned how he had put on a few pounds, and he realized that he was getting up from his desk in the afternoon every day, wandering into the cafeteria to chat with co-workers, and invariably got a big cookie while he was there. So he made a list of all the possible reasons he ended up eating a cookie, and one by one testing out ways to deal with each possibility until something worked. Also discussed corporate culture (eg group think), weird consequences of brain injuries, etc.
I digress! But long story short, my worst food decisions always seem to be after a tough day at work, when I'm mentally exhausted. So out of sight, out of mind does usually work for me. And if I do still dig something out of the back of the freezer, I take one serving and put it back, so I won't absently decide to eat the whole damm thing (which used to happen often).
And to second one other tip, focusing on getting more protein & produce into my diet, and not sweating the other stuff too much, is probably one of the best things I did to get on track.0 -
Very good post, that i'll be bookmarking!
This one really summed me up:
Limit (significantly in my opinion) calories that come in liquid form. To be clear, these are not inherently bad, but they can add up in a hurry and seldom contribute significantly to satiety.
I used to drink so much orange juice and thought i "was being healthy".
Clocked up 500 cals per day drinking that stuff.
(smh) 0 -
DeguelloTex wrote: »
I chose once, when I plan my day. I don't have to choose each time. Maybe that's the difference.DeguelloTex wrote: »
It's definitely worth paying attention to and, again, it would probably work better for some people. But I can leave the Peeps and jellybeans and snickerdoodles and chocolate ice cream right where they because they aren't part of what I've planned to eat... unless, of course, they are. Then again, I also don't stress about stock prices because short term fluctuations aren't important me. Maybe I'm just a special snowflake when it comes to not being distracted from goals.DeguelloTex wrote: »I think it's mostly reasonable.
The only thing I'd question is basically the hiding of hyper-palatable food. I'm sure it would work for some people but, in my view, the world's full of temptations and being prepared to deal with them is more effective than hoping not to be tempted. Plus, I live in a house with a couple of active kids who can still get way with eating just about anything and arranging the food in that way just wouldn't be feasible here. But, again, such an arrangement would probably work better than willpower for some people.
I understand your questioning and it's normal to question it. I'd have to dig for the papers but there's research supporting the environmental impacts (Wansink I believe) and there's additional survey data showing that most people don't think it applies to them.
I think it's profound. Most people think it applies to others and not them.
I think it is the single most underestimated aspect to dieting and that everyone should pay attention to it.
My belief is that the willpower argument I made earlier still applies.
It's not whether or not you can leave the jelly beans, it's that you're required to choose whether or not to leave them when you see them, and this choice is an act of willpower and willpower is finite.
This of course assumes that you enjoy jelly beans. If it was a plate of cat turds this wouldn't apply.
I normally do feel that way, but sometimes? I open the pantry, and there are the Snickers bars. I have to chose again. Sometimes, I chose to jiggle things in my day to fit one in. Sometimes, the choice is ... "well, there's always tomorrow." Other times, they don't even register. It depends on what my state of mind is at the time. And that's with putting the food away.
I have some extra perspective on having hyperpalatable food out and about. It's out in my house.
HOWEVER. It's food I CAN'T have because I have celiac disease. I don't know how much of eliminating gluten due to that comes down to willpower vs. you do what you must because you must. The mindset involved in that makes exercising willpower a bit easier for me, though, since I apply similar strategies.
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Definitely. I said, multiple times, that the hiding/avoiding environment might be better for some people. I just said it wasn't necessarily a universal thing. Plenty of people are able to cope with exposure to hyper-palatable food with overindulging or even indulging. Plenty aren't.DeguelloTex wrote: »
It's definitely worth paying attention to and, again, it would probably work better for some people. But I can leave the Peeps and jellybeans and snickerdoodles and chocolate ice cream right where they because they aren't part of what I've planned to eat... unless, of course, they are. Then again, I also don't stress about stock prices because short term fluctuations aren't important me. Maybe I'm just a special snowflake when it comes to not being distracted from goals.DeguelloTex wrote: »I think it's mostly reasonable.
The only thing I'd question is basically the hiding of hyper-palatable food. I'm sure it would work for some people but, in my view, the world's full of temptations and being prepared to deal with them is more effective than hoping not to be tempted. Plus, I live in a house with a couple of active kids who can still get way with eating just about anything and arranging the food in that way just wouldn't be feasible here. But, again, such an arrangement would probably work better than willpower for some people.
I understand your questioning and it's normal to question it. I'd have to dig for the papers but there's research supporting the environmental impacts (Wansink I believe) and there's additional survey data showing that most people don't think it applies to them.
I think it's profound. Most people think it applies to others and not them.
I think it is the single most underestimated aspect to dieting and that everyone should pay attention to it.
Don't you think however some of it depends on why you overeat?
I don't necessarily over eat because of appetite but instead it is because of boredom...habit...emotional. I can do fine for weeks...one serving and then done. Then all of a sudden one day that one serving turns in to 2...the 3...then the whole box/bag. For me it is just better not to have it in the house.
If it works better for you, by all means do it. That doesn't mean everyone needs to do so. It strikes me as very similar to the situation in which people cut out sugar or carbs in general or whatever and then start posting as if that is the way to lose weight. It isn't. And hiding/avoiding food isn't the way to deal with temptation. It is a way.
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