Squat form check? Old knee problems are haunting me....

Brolympus

Super quick backstory: Been lifting seriously for about a year . Lower body progress has been lagging compared to my upperbody (my bench is almost the same as my squat weight right now), and I have determined it's mostly a fear thing. Former distance runner and toothpick person turned lifter. Years of distance running essentially lead to some serious overuse injuries in my knee (especially the left).

The squat has always been intimidating because of the fear of aggravating my old injury, so I have been subconsciously babying it this whole time. I often seem to substitute deads or leg pressing because I just hate squats. The days I do squat, I have been squatting pretty light and doing higher reps (4x10 @165). My ROM is pretty good when I do them, my butt is just a couple inches off the floor, and haven't noticed any problems joint-wise. I was under the delusion my form was ok. Well that was until this week.

I started Stronglifts to try and get my big lifts dialed in before I move to a more bodybuilding-focused routine as I begin my second bulk and ramp up my training intensity. I wanted to iron out any small problems with form that could cause injuries and stall progress.

I picked a weight that I felt would be doable at 5x5 (and it was) @185lbs. Well, that was until my 3rd set, when I started getting sharp pain in my left knee and realized I was leaning forward way too much to compensate for the higher weight. I tried to correct it for the remaining sets, and I got the weight centered where it should be towards the center of my foot so I could push the weight with my hips/glutes. Except this new position made me fall over backwards into the safety catches it was so awkward and unstable at the bottom. Now I have a nice nagging pain in my knee, and its time to do legs again tonight. Joy. I'm kind of at a loss what the heck to do. I've watched about 30 videos on squat form, have been randomly practicing the movement trying to find a position that doesn't make my knee ache when I get down to the bottom, but no matter what, it always feels awkward/unstable and I feel this bad strain on the inside of my knee joint.

I am thinking this must be a flexibility thing, right? Why does this feel so awkward now compared to before with a lighter weight? Anybody have recommendations or similar experience? Should I wait until my knee pain goes away before even trying again with the 5 rep weight? I plan on trying to take a video of my session tonight so I can review it, and I can post it up here later. For reference, I seem to favor a high-bar position because it helps me keep my back straight and keeps me from feeling like I am going to tip over. But if this is part of the problem I could try and change it.

fatfudgery

Post a video for a form check.

Brolympus

Yup I will be taking one later tonight

giantrobot_powerlifting

Is it flexibility? Good question.

I have knee issues too, but my depth is not affected by them. What does affect my squat is if my upper body is not tight and engaged - specially on the heavier squats -- I will pitch forward if not tight and primed.

Which brings up the factor of your set-up. As I am prepping myself up under the bar, I tighten my body when I get under the bar from the lats down to my lower back to my quads and glutes. I think of myself as pillar. I am not your typical low bar squatter, but not a high bar either. (Unless I go in to high bar.) Setting up high might be your difficulty in maintaining back tightness which is why you may be unstable. Without a tight back, you can't transfer that energy to the ground.

TR0berts

nakedraygun wrote: »

Is it flexibility? Good question.

I have knee issues too, but my depth is not affected by them. What does affect my squat is if my upper body is not tight and engaged - specially on the heavier squats -- I will pitch forward if not tight and primed.

Which brings up the factor of your set-up. As I am prepping myself up under the bar, I tighten my body when I get under the bar from the lats down to my lower back to my quads and glutes. I think of myself as pillar. I am not your typical low bar squatter, but not a high bar either. (Unless I go in to high bar.) Setting up high might be your difficulty in maintaining back tightness which is why you may be unstable. Without a tight back, you can't transfer that energy to the ground.

Dude, get out of my head.

IOW: Yeah - this is what I find. I'm also sort of a "mid-bar" squatter.

richln

Interestingly, it could be related to ankle flexibility:
http://www.dotraining.co.uk/if-youre-going-to-squat-then-deep-squat/
If you are going down to 2" off the floor, then there is a lot that can go wrong with form that deep. Not everybody has the flexibility or uses the right stance for their joint structure to do that. I can feel the compromises in form starting to show up if I force myself to go deeper than what feels "natural", but it is only noticeable with higher weights. Do you feel like you start to tip forward down at the bottom when you first start to come up? If I go too deep with heavy weight, I tend to overemphasize hip drive at the start of the upwards movement, along with my poor ankle flexibility at that depth leads to spinal flexion and tipping forward for me. I have a bad right knee, and leaning forward, putting more weight on my toes, always makes my knee sore for the next few days. This link applies to the kinematics of high-bar squats gone too deep as well as low-bars:
http://www.biomechfit.com/2013/03/05/squat-neutral-spine

I have been doing only front squats for about the last 9 months because of a lumbar injury, and my knee doesn't bother me when doing front squats. I believe it has do with the better leverage I can get with front squats at depth while keeping my back straight. I lean back and keep my weight strictly balanced on my heels. I have to be careful on my first couple of warm up sets because it always feels like I am going to fall over backwards, but this keeps my spine and knees pain free.

I would recommend keeping off the higher weights for awhile and letting your knee recover instead of trying to work through it. One weak link in the chain is setting yourself up for a bigger injury. It never works out well for me.

jmule24

I had to switch to low-bar squat and haven't looked back since. I too suffer from sports related knee injuries but I find that the wider base with a low-bar squat makes me feel more "solid" under the bar. Also, I don't go ATG for squats I just get at/below parallel and on up I go.

FWIW - You don't have to force yourself to do squats for leg development, I'm sure you know that. Unless you plan on competing in a powerlifting meet, I would personally look to other exercises if low-bar squats didn't fix the issue.

Brolympus

I'm thinking I am going to try a warm-up set with both high and low bar positions, video those, and also do high and low with the heavy weight and video those too, so there is a good comparison.

giantrobot_powerlifting

TR0berts wrote: »

Dude, get out of my head.

TR0berts wrote: »

IOW: Yeah - this is what I find. I'm also sort of a "mid-bar" squatter.

And all this time I thought this was a one-man party.

giantrobot_powerlifting

Izzy covers the pre-squat set-up here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOJGzAgLWDc&list=PL90KVfuYF6iYopqOB4mTiDBm26leR06Md&index=5

pmm3437

Your starting a new Stronglifts 5x5 program, but not following the program. The reason it doesnt feel right is because youve jumped ahead to a heavier weight, and the joint supporting muscles arent strong enough.

Start with the week 1 weights, and train your body for the proper form. Much easier to make form corrections with the lighter loads.

And yes, proper form is hips parallel to knees, not ATG.

Brolympus

pmm3437 wrote: »

Your starting a new Stronglifts 5x5 program, but not following the program. The reason it doesnt feel right is because youve jumped ahead to a heavier weight, and the joint supporting muscles arent strong enough.

Start with the week 1 weights, and train your body for the proper form. Much easier to make form corrections with the lighter loads.

And yes, proper form is hips parallel to knees, not ATG.

This is true, and I am planning to deload. Just confused why this didn't show up earlier. I've been squatting for almost a year now, increased my squat by 50lbs since I started and do it at a fairly high volume. Guess this higher weight was the tipping point my bad form would allow I suppose. I do believe my knee tracking is a major issue studying Izzy's video, coupled with not being tight enough prior to starting the lift. I'm a tall dude, and most of it is legs, so anything slightly out of whack as far as lever arms go just makes the problems multiply even more.

I think depth is mostly a flexibility and personal body mechanics question, coupled with which bar placement you are using. Nothing wrong with ATG if as long as your back doesn't round and give you buttwink from what I have read.