Starvation Diets - Questioning that psychological not metabolic damage the reason they fail?
Replies
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Liftng4Lis wrote: »Liftng4Lis wrote: »Liftng4Lis wrote: »Yes they make you lose weight, but at what cost? You lose muscle mass, in addition to vital nutrients your body needs. Not to mention what has the person really learned? What about sustainability?
The evidence is to the contrary, Protein Sparing Modified Fasts to not involve substantial muscle loss.
Where exactly do you see the OP stating anything about this diet? She said VLCD. You're talking about a very specific diet that is high in protein, low in carbs. Regardless, this has nothing to do with my statement.
PSMF is an example of a VLCD. Since it is well established that PSMFs work extremely well at both dropping weight and preserving lean body mass, any blanket statement about VLCDs claiming VLCDs don't work is automatically wrong.
THAT is the connection.
So what he was trying to say was that "ON SOME OCCASIONS, with this EXCEPTION"......
I reiterate, it had nothing to do with OP's post.
One more time - the discussion is about LBM loss on VLCD - PSMF is a VLCD, in fact the most commonly physician-prescribed VLCD - PSMF preservers LBM very well - therefore any claim that VLCDs inevitably lead to wasting away is wrong.
You are arguing that talking about a Mallard doesn't mean you're talking about a duck.
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daniwilford wrote: »I have yet to hear a testimonial of an individual for whom a VLCD yielded a sustainable and maintainable weight loss. How happy were they with their sense of well being and health during the process? I plan on a level of CICO for my lifetime to be similar to now, because it feels so great.
After each of my two pregnancies, I was about 20 pounds overweight. I went on a VLCD of about 700-800 calories a day; no exercise. Lost it all in six weeks each time, and kept it off. UNTIL I quit smoking and gained a grand total of 60 pounds. I lost 25 of them, then gained back a couple because I got lazy, and am thinking about doing a VLCD for six weeks to get me kick-started again. Difference is now I'm exercising now, so don't have to eat so few calories.0 -
- therefore any claim that VLCDs inevitably lead to wasting away is wrong.
You are arguing that talking about a Mallard doesn't mean you're talking about a duck.
So someone that is NOT doing PSMF, but is eating VLCD, is going to maintain muscle mass? YEP, okay sure. You win!
WOOT WOOT!0 -
Liftng4Lis wrote: »- therefore any claim that VLCDs inevitably lead to wasting away is wrong.
You are arguing that talking about a Mallard doesn't mean you're talking about a duck.
So someone that is NOT doing PSMF, but is eating VLCD, is going to maintain muscle mass? YEP, okay sure. You win!
WOOT WOOT!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts0 -
This thread started out with a question (because she was "just curious") about doing VLCDs from an OP who doesn't seem to have that much to lose. It did not limit it to specific careful diets or to those supervised by a doctor.
People warned against it for various reasons, and yet somehow we end up with posts that seem to be promoting VLCD in general (supposedly because they can be done effectively for very obese people and may be preferable than 1000-1200 calorie diets or liquid diets with different macro mixes, and again this is not relevant to OP at all). I'm uncomfortable with the tenor of some of the recent posts which seem to be promoting VLCDs without stating that they should at least be done under the care of a doctor who has identified medical reasons why they are preferable to slower loss. I am particularly concerned about the posts that seem to say that if an obese person isn't comfortable with doing a VLCD she isn't tough enough or it's all in her head.
I think that's contrary to MFP policy, also.0 -
Liftng4Lis wrote: »Liftng4Lis wrote: »Liftng4Lis wrote: »Yes they make you lose weight, but at what cost? You lose muscle mass, in addition to vital nutrients your body needs. Not to mention what has the person really learned? What about sustainability?
The evidence is to the contrary, Protein Sparing Modified Fasts to not involve substantial muscle loss.
Where exactly do you see the OP stating anything about this diet? She said VLCD. You're talking about a very specific diet that is high in protein, low in carbs. Regardless, this has nothing to do with my statement.
PSMF is an example of a VLCD. Since it is well established that PSMFs work extremely well at both dropping weight and preserving lean body mass, any blanket statement about VLCDs claiming VLCDs don't work is automatically wrong.
THAT is the connection.
So what he was trying to say was that "ON SOME OCCASIONS, with this EXCEPTION"......
I reiterate, it had nothing to do with OP's post.
One more time - the discussion is about LBM loss on VLCD - PSMF is a VLCD, in fact the most commonly physician-prescribed VLCD - PSMF preservers LBM very well - therefore any claim that VLCDs inevitably lead to wasting away is wrong.
You are arguing that talking about a Mallard doesn't mean you're talking about a duck.
Actually, if you read the OP, it was asking whether metabolic damage or the psychological damage of hunger that causes weight gain after a lcd.0 -
yopeeps025 wrote: »afatpersonwholikesfood wrote: »yopeeps025 wrote: »
That is because the bigger you are the healthier it is to do a larger calorie deficit.
Let's say there are no comorbidities going on. How is it healthier?
High levels of excess fat store in the body. Visceral fat the worst fat in the body. Larger your are and quicker you lose some of that excess fat= getting healthier for long term and short term.
And pointing out, the the intent of LCD/VLCD is generally to get people out of danger zones and only supposed to be use for a few months.
Agreed! VLCD is a short term solution for those in high risk categories caused by their excess weight.
Also I am not privy to what the "Danger zones are" so don't ask me, but sometimes the benefits of a VLCD will outweigh the negatives. Most VLCDs are done under medical supervision/scrutiny to monitor any adverse effects on the recipient. (you would hope)
Regarding the psychological impact on the relationship with food, one would hope that the recipient would receive adequate counseling, education and support to regain healthy eating habits. Obviously this will not always be the case.
ETA: I support reasonable weightloss at a reasonable rate, but if a VLCD saves someone from a premature death it has served a significant purpose.
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atypicalsmith wrote: »daniwilford wrote: »I have yet to hear a testimonial of an individual for whom a VLCD yielded a sustainable and maintainable weight loss. How happy were they with their sense of well being and health during the process? I plan on a level of CICO for my lifetime to be similar to now, because it feels so great.
After each of my two pregnancies, I was about 20 pounds overweight. I went on a VLCD of about 700-800 calories a day; no exercise. Lost it all in six weeks each time, and kept it off. UNTIL I quit smoking and gained a grand total of 60 pounds. I lost 25 of them, then gained back a couple because I got lazy, and am thinking about doing a VLCD for six weeks to get me kick-started again. Difference is now I'm exercising now, so don't have to eat so few calories.
So you lost the weight - then regained it, lost it - then regained it. Now you're trying to lose again... That's the definition of yo yo dieting.
Excellent proof that VLCD work :noway:0 -
Iron_Feline wrote: »atypicalsmith wrote: »daniwilford wrote: »I have yet to hear a testimonial of an individual for whom a VLCD yielded a sustainable and maintainable weight loss. How happy were they with their sense of well being and health during the process? I plan on a level of CICO for my lifetime to be similar to now, because it feels so great.
After each of my two pregnancies, I was about 20 pounds overweight. I went on a VLCD of about 700-800 calories a day; no exercise. Lost it all in six weeks each time, and kept it off. UNTIL I quit smoking and gained a grand total of 60 pounds. I lost 25 of them, then gained back a couple because I got lazy, and am thinking about doing a VLCD for six weeks to get me kick-started again. Difference is now I'm exercising now, so don't have to eat so few calories.
So you lost the weight - then regained it, lost it - then regained it. Now you're trying to lose again... That's the definition of yo yo dieting.
Excellent proof that VLCD work :noway:
I lost it from my first pregnancy in six weeks. Didn't regain until three years later with my next pregnancy. Lost it again in six weeks. Didn't regain until 21 years later when I quit smoking. That's hardly yo-yoing.0 -
atypicalsmith wrote: »Iron_Feline wrote: »atypicalsmith wrote: »daniwilford wrote: »I have yet to hear a testimonial of an individual for whom a VLCD yielded a sustainable and maintainable weight loss. How happy were they with their sense of well being and health during the process? I plan on a level of CICO for my lifetime to be similar to now, because it feels so great.
After each of my two pregnancies, I was about 20 pounds overweight. I went on a VLCD of about 700-800 calories a day; no exercise. Lost it all in six weeks each time, and kept it off. UNTIL I quit smoking and gained a grand total of 60 pounds. I lost 25 of them, then gained back a couple because I got lazy, and am thinking about doing a VLCD for six weeks to get me kick-started again. Difference is now I'm exercising now, so don't have to eat so few calories.
So you lost the weight - then regained it, lost it - then regained it. Now you're trying to lose again... That's the definition of yo yo dieting.
Excellent proof that VLCD work :noway:
I lost it from my first pregnancy in six weeks. Didn't regain until three years later with my next pregnancy. Lost it again in six weeks. Didn't regain until 21 years later when I quit smoking. That's hardly yo-yoing.
a few dates might have made that clearer.0 -
Iron_Feline wrote: »atypicalsmith wrote: »daniwilford wrote: »I have yet to hear a testimonial of an individual for whom a VLCD yielded a sustainable and maintainable weight loss. How happy were they with their sense of well being and health during the process? I plan on a level of CICO for my lifetime to be similar to now, because it feels so great.
After each of my two pregnancies, I was about 20 pounds overweight. I went on a VLCD of about 700-800 calories a day; no exercise. Lost it all in six weeks each time, and kept it off. UNTIL I quit smoking and gained a grand total of 60 pounds. I lost 25 of them, then gained back a couple because I got lazy, and am thinking about doing a VLCD for six weeks to get me kick-started again. Difference is now I'm exercising now, so don't have to eat so few calories.
So you lost the weight - then regained it, lost it - then regained it. Now you're trying to lose again... That's the definition of yo yo dieting.
Excellent proof that VLCD work :noway:
Gaining weight during pregnancies and then losing the weight has very little to do with yo-yo dieting. It is rather normal.
Gaining weight after stopping smoking is also a common occurrence. Trying to lose it afterwards is also common.
Neither of these in any way is proof that VLCD diet work or not. People may experience the gains and losses after these experiences whether they choose VLCD or even a slight deficit.
Also if you look at this poster's profile...she is in her mid 60s. Her current desired weight loss hardly would have very little to do with pregnancy...I would assume.
I think sometimes we jump to conclusions without looking at the facts just to verify our own preconceived ideas.
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DeguelloTex wrote: »
Can you explain it isn't healthy for someone with enough body fat to provide 3000 calories a day, even apart from food, to have a large calorie deficit?
A large calorie deficit is never " healthier " for anyone. But for very obese people it is not as unhealthy than for less heavy people.
I know that this sounds like splitting hairs, but there is a difference between something being " healthier " and something being less bad.
I would like to hear an explanation as well from @Ang108
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Iron_Feline wrote: »atypicalsmith wrote: »daniwilford wrote: »I have yet to hear a testimonial of an individual for whom a VLCD yielded a sustainable and maintainable weight loss. How happy were they with their sense of well being and health during the process? I plan on a level of CICO for my lifetime to be similar to now, because it feels so great.
After each of my two pregnancies, I was about 20 pounds overweight. I went on a VLCD of about 700-800 calories a day; no exercise. Lost it all in six weeks each time, and kept it off. UNTIL I quit smoking and gained a grand total of 60 pounds. I lost 25 of them, then gained back a couple because I got lazy, and am thinking about doing a VLCD for six weeks to get me kick-started again. Difference is now I'm exercising now, so don't have to eat so few calories.
So you lost the weight - then regained it, lost it - then regained it. Now you're trying to lose again... That's the definition of yo yo dieting.
Excellent proof that VLCD work :noway:
Gaining weight during pregnancies and then losing the weight has very little to do with yo-yo dieting. It is rather normal.
Gaining weight after stopping smoking is also a common occurrence. Trying to lose it afterwards is also common.
Neither of these in any way is proof that VLCD diet work or not. People may experience the gains and losses after these experiences whether they choose VLCD or even a slight deficit.
Also if you look at this poster's profile...she is in her mid 60s. Her current desired weight loss hardly would have very little to do with pregnancy...I would assume.
I think sometimes we jump to conclusions without looking at the facts just to verify our own preconceived ideas.
SO glad you read the post above this one. I didn't look at her profile I went off the facts in her post - if there was a 21 year gap it might have been helpful to mention that in the original post.
And gaining 60lbs when stopping smoking is NOT normal.
60lbs she hasn't lost - oh wait she lost 25 then gained some of them back and is now trying again - so the weight gain loss gain now trying to lose again from smoking - is that not yo-yo dieting?
How many times must you gain / lose / gain / lose before it becomes a yo-yo.
But hey - clearly that's just my preconceived idea.0 -
Citation? And another citation that 20 pounds of fat can supply calories quickly enough that the body doesn't scavenge other parts of the body for energy?DeguelloTex wrote: »Your body can't metabolize fat that quickly. Twenty pounds of fat might get you 600 calories a day. The rest of your deficit is going to come from burning something else in your body.
That "31 calories/pound/day" went away a long time ago.
And the number isn't even static - it changes significantly in response the external pressures. Going into an 18 hour fast is, by itself, good for a 20%+ boost.
Even with a hypothetical 20% boost, we're talking about 720 calories a day, not 2000. You think, even under your version of the facts, that's meaningfully different or are you just looking to quibble around the edges when the underlying premise still holds? Oh, wait, I see the username, I have my answer.
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