Overhead Press, What is a full rep?!
Replies
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OP I have also heard several times not to bring the weight too low as you can seriously injure your shoulders (rotator cuff). Like all exercises involving heavy lifting, form is the key. I agree the "proper" way only feels like half a rep but its better than not being able to do any reps at all due to injury.
That said, bringing the elbow down to parallel with the shoulder is probably a better exercise anyway as it keeps the upper chest under strain throughout the whole range of movement.
If I stopped the eccentric portion of the lift when my elbow was parallel with my shoulder, the barbell would still be above my head. Seriously people... cut the ****. It doesn't matter what your sisters brothers friends ripped uncle does for his lifting... a partial rep is a partial rep. Avoiding locking out is one thing. Moving a bar 2-6" and claiming its a rep is a whole different species of stupid.
IKR!?
If you're lifting so much weight in a press that you feel like you need to protect your shoulders from injury from merely preforming the lift properly, then you need to go down in weight or preform a different lift.
If you're healthy and doing a lift at an appropriate weight for you, good form should be enough to protect you from injury.0 -
good form should be enough to protect you from injury.
OP's question, however, is "what is good form". I've yet to see anyone mention a benefit to going down to your chest. It sounds like a good way to A) add strain and
take tension off the shoulder, defeating the point of the exercise. At 6'2, bringing the bar to my chin and extending to just shy of a lock (again, time under tension) gets me a 2 foot (60 cm) ROM. 0 -
Not OHP but relevant:
http://youtu.be/rKoP6-4rXao
NSFW! (Probably uses the F word and similar.)0 -
good form should be enough to protect you from injury.
OP's question, however, is "what is good form". I've yet to see anyone mention a benefit to going down to your chest. It sounds like a good way to A) add strain and take tension off the shoulder, defeating the point of the exercise. At 6'2, bringing the bar to my chin and extending to just shy of a lock (again, time under tension) gets me a 2 foot (60 cm) ROM.
I've mentioned the benefit multiple times now. Good form on a strict press means going all the way down to your clavicle because otherwise you skip out on working entire muscles (anterior deltoids, rotator cuff muscles).
It really doesn't matter how long your arms are. Your anterior deltoids only work for about 90 degrees of abduction. If your upper arms are only going parallel to the floor, you are not engaging them at all. That's fine if you're only interested in working your trapezius/serratus and triceps, but there are other movements for those muscles that are safer for your shoulders at higher weights.0 -
not being able to complete a rep is a clear sign of shoulder mobility issues. i understand that not everybody can do behind the neck presses and such, but doing a regular shoulder press is something everyone should be able to do without limitations.
if you have problems with mobility then you should work on it until you can perform the exercise correctly instead of ignoring the issue and doing half reps. that will only make things worse. you can however stop just right before lockout so you don't have your elbows at a negative angle.
your friend is not avoiding shoulder issues but causing them.0 -
Thank you. Some common sense in this discussion. Correct form is always the key. Keeping tension on the muscle group is more effective and also a lot more difficult. That is why many people use lighter weights for this excercise. Dropping my elbows below parallel and then locking out removes the tension from the muscle group and makes it easier on the individual. Try lowering the weight, lower arms to parallel, lift back to just before lock out, and complete. I guarantee you those weights will start feeling heavier than when you started.
I also noticed quicker results once I started doing the reps this way.0 -
not being able to complete a rep is a clear sign of shoulder mobility issues. i understand that not everybody can do behind the neck presses and such, but doing a regular shoulder press is something everyone should be able to do without limitations.
if you have problems with mobility then you should work on it until you can perform the exercise correctly instead of ignoring the issue and doing half reps. that will only make things worse. you can however stop just right before lockout so you don't have your elbows at a negative angle.
your friend is not avoiding shoulder issues but causing them.
^This
You can work on great ROM and getting better technique.
I wonder if these people who can't do a full rep aren't using too great a load? Perhaps they should dial it back a bit on the kg's and explore the full ROM with good form and they'll discover better shoulder health as a benefit? Then they can get into something a bit heavier......0 -
Thank you. Some common sense in this discussion. Correct form is always the key. Keeping tension on the muscle group is more effective and also a lot more difficult. That is why many people use lighter weights for this excercise. Dropping my elbows below parallel and then locking out removes the tension from the muscle group and makes it easier on the individual. Try lowering the weight, lower arms to parallel, lift back to just before lock out, and complete. I guarantee you those weights will start feeling heavier than when you started.
I also noticed quicker results once I started doing the reps this way.
Fine, but at this point you've invented a completely different exercise.
A strict overhead press is meant to be a compound movement to strengthen supporting muscles (particularly the anterior deltoids and rotator cuff) for more complex and heavier moves (like jerks). You go to lockout, not because it's going to make your triceps bigger, but because it's proper technique for engaging the stabilizing muscles and realigning yourself for proper form in the eccentric phase.
All of you time under tension tricep isolation people might as well just go on with tricep extensions with heavier weights to save your shoulders. Really, at that point I don't understand why you're doing an overhead press at all.0 -
Yeah Wendler suggests FOM to shoulders in his book, though saw a clip of him lifting yesterday and hes going to chin... Maybe just a heavy lift... I don't fkin know.0
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reading the other replies i hope you people don't believe that it is consistant tension that will improve performance. yes, it is a good way to develop large and round deltoids to walk around the beach with and brag about. it's also not about how much weight you can re-rack.
for functional strength you want to have good body mechanics, good neuromuscular connections, good joint integrity and then you can utilize your prime movers to the full extend. all of this requires full ROM.
OP is doing 5/3/1 which leads me to believe he is more worried about his athletic performance than his looks and even if he isn't there is no need do sacrifice function.
edit:Yeah Wendler suggests FOM to shoulders in his book, though saw a clip of him lifting yesterday and hes going to chin... Maybe just a heavy lift... I don't fkin know.
bad angle, but notice how he lowers the weight down to his collar bone at the start of each rep even though he rests it at just below his chin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxXWLI5AjLY
i'm not 100% sure this is wendler btw.0 -
reading the other replies i hope you people don't believe that it is consistant tension that will improve performance. yes, it is a good way to develop large and round deltoids to walk around the beach with and brag about. it's also not about how much weight you can re-rack.
for functional strength you want to have good body mechanics, good neuromuscular connections, good joint integrity and then you can utilize your prime movers to the full extend. all of this requires full ROM.
OP is doing 5/3/1 which leads me to believe he is more worried about his athletic performance than his looks and even if he isn't there is no need do sacrifice function.
edit:Yeah Wendler suggests FOM to shoulders in his book, though saw a clip of him lifting yesterday and hes going to chin... Maybe just a heavy lift... I don't fkin know.
bad angle, but notice how he lowers the weight down to his collar bone at the start of each rep even though he rests it at just below his chin:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxXWLI5AjLY
i'm not 100% sure this is wendler btw.
Yup. Just do the full rep and call it a day. If you actually find that it's causing you shoulder pain then re-evaluate your pre-workout warm-up, OHP form, post-workout stretching and add some shoulder mobility work. If you still have pain after all that then perhaps the full ROM is too much for you and switch. /thread0 -
Depends on what you're trying to achieve. Resistance definitely has a lot to do with ROM. So if you're trying to put on size with overload, I can see the trainers point of view since I also do them that way and higher weights for multiple consecutive reps can put excessive strain on the shoulder joint if coming down to the chest.I learned the overhead press as barbell from chest/clavicles, up to full lockout, and back again.
Trainer on Monday (he's no bro, a serious guy), and another guy yesterday who has a previously torn shoulder both told me that it's best to rep from about eye level to lock out and back.
They say it's to protect your shoulders. I get it, but it just looks like a half-rep to me, and that's not something I'm into doing.
Anyone else "bottom out" at eye level and can explain why they do them?
If one is competitively lifting for strength (with lockouts) then lifting from clavicles is what they work from.
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
If i do BB in front i go much lower (top of chest). if behind neck i lower bar to about my ears (i.e. elbows just below shoulder level). i have an inpingement, otherwise i would probably touch back of neck/top of shoulders. if it doesnt hurt or feel "wrong" then go for it.0
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If i do BB in front i go much lower (top of chest). if behind neck i lower bar to about my ears (i.e. elbows just below shoulder level). i have an inpingement, otherwise i would probably touch back of neck/top of shoulders. if it doesnt hurt or feel "wrong" then go for it.
If you have an impingement you should consider not doing behind the neck press, that won't help you at all with that issue and could make it worse.0 -
A full rep "by the books" is probably from chest (stop point) to lockout (stop point).
But unless you're lifting for a competition, you obviously don't HAVE TO have a full range of motion. It also depends on what equipment you have available e.g. stop pins in a power rack.
I'd say for practical lifting and safety I'd only go from chin to shy-of-lockout with a barbell, and parallel to shy-of-lockout with dumbbells and a spotter. The only other concern I'd have is being consistent with my range of motion for tracking purposes and increasing weight.
Because, let's be serious, if you can OHP your body weight (or whatever) even with a partial range of motion you're still strong as an ox. And your shoulders will still be developed.0 -
If I stopped the eccentric portion of the lift when my elbow was parallel with my shoulder, the barbell would still be above my head. Seriously people... cut the ****. It doesn't matter what your sisters brothers friends ripped uncle does for his lifting... a partial rep is a partial rep. Avoiding locking out is one thing. Moving a bar 2-6" and claiming its a rep is a whole different species of stupid.
Other than ego, what does it matter if someone is doing a partial rep and claiming it's a full rep?
It doesn't bother me or affect me at all if someone who only squats with a 4" range of motion wants to claim he squats 4 plates.
If someone came to me for squatting advice I'd recommend atg because it's safer on the knees, but it'd be a complete and total lie if I said that, say, partial squats weren't also helping that person develop strength and fitness.
OHP from the chest is hard because your shoulders are at their objectively weakest position while under tension. Being at its weakest also means greatest potential for injury; not just to your shoulders but also to your neck, back, etc. Is it a significant risk? Maybe not. But whether it's a risk that needs to be taken AT ALL depends on that person's individual goals.0 -
good form should be enough to protect you from injury.
OP's question, however, is "what is good form". I've yet to see anyone mention a benefit to going down to your chest. It sounds like a good way to A) add strain and take tension off the shoulder, defeating the point of the exercise. At 6'2, bringing the bar to my chin and extending to just shy of a lock (again, time under tension) gets me a 2 foot (60 cm) ROM.
I've mentioned the benefit multiple times now. Good form on a strict press means going all the way down to your clavicle because otherwise you skip out on working entire muscles (anterior deltoids, rotator cuff muscles).
It really doesn't matter how long your arms are. Your anterior deltoids only work for about 90 degrees of abduction. If your upper arms are only going parallel to the floor, you are not engaging them at all. That's fine if you're only interested in working your trapezius/serratus and triceps, but there are other movements for those muscles that are safer for your shoulders at higher weights.
What kind of short-armed disproportionate people are you working with that have parallel arms when the bar is at their chin? The bottoms of my elbows are a full 8" below the plane of my shoulders when the bar is at my chin...0 -
If I stopped the eccentric portion of the lift when my elbow was parallel with my shoulder, the barbell would still be above my head. Seriously people... cut the ****. It doesn't matter what your sisters brothers friends ripped uncle does for his lifting... a partial rep is a partial rep. Avoiding locking out is one thing. Moving a bar 2-6" and claiming its a rep is a whole different species of stupid.
Other than ego, what does it matter if someone is doing a partial rep and claiming it's a full rep?
It doesn't bother me or affect me at all if someone who only squats with a 4" range of motion wants to claim he squats 4 plates.
If someone came to me for squatting advice I'd recommend atg because it's safer on the knees, but it'd be a complete and total lie if I said that, say, partial squats weren't also helping that person develop strength and fitness.
OHP from the chest is hard because your shoulders are at their objectively weakest position while under tension. Being at its weakest also means greatest potential for injury; not just to your shoulders but also to your neck, back, etc. Is it a significant risk? Maybe not. But whether it's a risk that needs to be taken AT ALL depends on that person's individual goals.
Because there is a difference in muscle stimulation. It's the same thing as benching pressing and bringing the bar half way down and touching your chest. I can OHP and BP more by only doing a partial rep, doesn't make me stronger. Regarding the injury statement, that's just not true. I've met people that torn a hamstring doing leg curls, if soft-tissue is gonna go it's gonna go. Some folks might not be able to legitimately reach that ROM because of a medical issue or other physical limitation and that's fine. However, if you're a healthy able-bodied person the you should follow correct form.What kind of short-armed disproportionate people are you working with that have parallel arms when the bar is at their chin? The bottoms of my elbows are a full 8" below the plane of my shoulders when the bar is at my chin..
LOL!0 -
I can OHP and BP more by only doing a partial rep, doesn't make me stronger
That's only because your comparison is inconsistent. Apples to oranges.
Yes, if I do a OHP partial with 150 lbs I'm probably not stronger than YOU doing a OHP with a full rep at 130 lbs.
And yes, if I do a OHP partial with 150 lbs I'm probably not stronger than if I do a OHP with a full rep at 130 lbs.
BUT
If increase my OHP partial from 150 lbs to partial at 170 lbs... are you saying I'm not becoming stronger compared to when I could only press 150? I just increased my ability to complete a partial rep by 20 lbs. By definition I became stronger.
Your statement regarding "if it's gonna go it's gonna go" is completely misleading. Are you saying there isn't a GREATER risk of injury when you're lifting (a) heavier weights and (b) through your weakest range of motion? Whether or not that person could also be injured using light weights and a narrow range of motion is irrelevant. The point is that there is an increased risk. And whether or not each person needs to or wants to take on that increased risk is wholly dependent on their goals.0 -
Trainer on Monday (he's no bro, a serious guy), and another guy yesterday who has a previously torn shoulder both told me that it's best to rep from about eye level to lock out and back.
They say it's to protect your shoulders. I get it, but it just looks like a half-rep to me, and that's not something I'm into doing.
This is one reason I sort of prefer the dumbbell for OHP. I had a serious rotator cuff injury a couple of years ago (From a sports activity outside of the gym) and the barbell puts you in an unnatural position with that full range of motion. Most people can probably do it if you're healthy but it does put more stress on that joint if you take it all the way down. Even with the dumbbells I don't take the weight all the way down to my shoulders.
I had a rotary cuff tear in my right shoulder (twice while working at budweiser) and prefer dumbbell for OHP. For me the barbell is to restrictive and even as stated above I never break plane with the dumbbell though.. Strict form is paramount for me doing OHP.... Best of Luck0 -
I can OHP and BP more by only doing a partial rep, doesn't make me stronger
That's only because your comparison is inconsistent. Apples to oranges.
Yes, if I do a OHP partial with 150 lbs I'm probably not stronger than YOU doing a OHP with a full rep at 130 lbs.
And yes, if I do a OHP partial with 150 lbs I'm probably not stronger than if I do a OHP with a full rep at 130 lbs.
BUT
If increase my OHP partial from 150 lbs to partial at 170 lbs... are you saying I'm not becoming stronger compared to when I could only press 150? I just increased my ability to complete a partial rep by 20 lbs. By definition I became stronger.
Your statement regarding "if it's gonna go it's gonna go" is completely misleading. Are you saying there isn't a GREATER risk of injury when you're lifting (a) heavier weights and (b) through your weakest range of motion? Whether or not that person could also be injured using light weights and a narrow range of motion is irrelevant. The point is that there is an increased risk. And whether or not each person needs to or wants to take on that increased risk is wholly dependent on their goals.
There is risk period. That's why some strength coaches have stopped doing Pin Press, for instance, from the mid-point in the press which is the strongest point in the lift; injury. Dave Tate talked specifically about this last year. Lifting from the mid-point to lock-out has the same risk. I remember reading a story from an experienced lifter not too long ago that broke a disc in the squat rack just setting up to the bar and lifting it out of the hooks. You grab a barbell, dumbbell, kettlebell, or throw a barbell across your back there is always a chance of injury; it's a risk we take. Hell, I pulled a hammy really bad just doing sprints and I was good and warmed-up, freak **** just happens. That injury still nags at me but I'm not going to quit running because of it.
If you're goal is strength, then why sell yourself short? If your sets and reps of OHP take 6-minutes (for example) to complete then why not take that 6-minutes to get the fullest benefit from your time investment. If you were going to invest money and you were guaranteed an ROI, why invest in a lower-worth investment when the greater-worth investment is guaranteed? Exercise is no different. When you're exercising for strength use your time investment to get the most out of each lift. If you're lifting for BB'ing purposes then it probably doesn't matter which you use.0 -
If you're goal is strength, then why sell yourself short?
Which is why I said it depends on your goals.If you were going to invest money and you were guaranteed an ROI, why invest in a lower-worth investment when the greater-worth investment is guaranteed?
Because, as in the case with real investments, it comes with greater risk. Deadlifts are great, but you'd be crazy if you thought deadlifts were safer than, say, hyperextensions plus squeezing some of those hand gripper things and some leg presses.
Are you getting the same bang for your buck? Of course not. But what do you get in return for your lesser investment? Less chance of injury, for one.Exercise is no different. When you're exercising for strength use your time investment to get the most out of each lift. If you're lifting for BB'ing purposes then it probably doesn't matter which you use.
Or if you're exercising for conditioning or general fitness. Or strength within a more limited scope, e.g. you're trying to become stronger but you aren't trying to set EliteFTS levels of strength.
Which is why I said it depends on your goals.0 -
If you're goal is strength, then why sell yourself short?
Which is why I said it depends on your goals.If you were going to invest money and you were guaranteed an ROI, why invest in a lower-worth investment when the greater-worth investment is guaranteed?
Because, as in the case with real investments, it comes with greater risk. Deadlifts are great, but you'd be crazy if you thought deadlifts were safer than, say, hyperextensions plus squeezing some of those hand gripper things and some leg presses.
Are you getting the same bang for your buck? Of course not. But what do you get in return for your lesser investment? Less chance of injury, for one.Exercise is no different. When you're exercising for strength use your time investment to get the most out of each lift. If you're lifting for BB'ing purposes then it probably doesn't matter which you use.
Or if you're exercising for conditioning or general fitness. Or strength within a more limited scope, e.g. you're trying to become stronger but you aren't trying to set EliteFTS levels of strength.
Which is why I said it depends on your goals.
A lot of injury just comes down to form and some of it comes down to WTF was that? You mentioned Leg Press. Have you ever watched somebody do a leg press and they bring their legs to far back and round their lower back? That's not good at all for your spine. It would be safer to DL with good from than to Leg Press with bad form.
The difference between getting stronger and getting pro-strong (EliteFTS reference) is not form, or at least not form alone. LOL! Huge difference in lifters.
This thread is de-railed enough. The OP is using the 5/3/1 system and he is strength oriented. Because of his goals and what he's doing he needs to use a full range of motion if physically capable. That was the original question and somehow this thread completely digressed into nonsense.0 -
good form should be enough to protect you from injury.
OP's question, however, is "what is good form". I've yet to see anyone mention a benefit to going down to your chest. It sounds like a good way to A) add strain and take tension off the shoulder, defeating the point of the exercise. At 6'2, bringing the bar to my chin and extending to just shy of a lock (again, time under tension) gets me a 2 foot (60 cm) ROM.
I've mentioned the benefit multiple times now. Good form on a strict press means going all the way down to your clavicle because otherwise you skip out on working entire muscles (anterior deltoids, rotator cuff muscles).
It really doesn't matter how long your arms are. Your anterior deltoids only work for about 90 degrees of abduction. If your upper arms are only going parallel to the floor, you are not engaging them at all. That's fine if you're only interested in working your trapezius/serratus and triceps, but there are other movements for those muscles that are safer for your shoulders at higher weights.
What kind of short-armed disproportionate people are you working with that have parallel arms when the bar is at their chin? The bottoms of my elbows are a full 8" below the plane of my shoulders when the bar is at my chin...
I wasn't addressing people who said the bar comes down to their chin, I was addressing people who said they only go down to where their arms are parallel.
But even still, that bottom few inches between shoulders and chin are still an important part of the movement. If you don't do that, you're not doing an overhead press and at that point you might as well do a push press (which would help strengthen the shoulder for the full range of motion for the OHP, unlike doing partial reps).0 -
As I have some more experiance with this now, an update.
If your back is bothering you, use a split stance. It's actually better overall, more stable as I can tell, and totally relieves that pinch in your back at heavy weight.
At this point I just let the weight come down to wherever it naturally ends, not bothering to make sure it touches my chest. Usually it comes down to about an inch above my chest I guess, but I just let it "settle" so to speak, at the bottom of the rep, before pressing it for another rep. This seems to work.
Also, to protect your shoulders, be careful to give the bar even effort from both arms. This significantly improves my power (duh right?) and seems to alleviate the pressure either way.0 -
Also, I'm just curious because this is my weakest lift.
What is your 1RM on the Press? I'm 150 lbs and pressing 125 for 5 reps. Est 1RM is about 145lbs.0 -
you could try incorporating a front squat, you might feel like you were getting more out of it then0
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Not to kid you, but that's actually quite strong based on your weight.Also, I'm just curious because this is my weakest lift.
What is your 1RM on the Press? I'm 150 lbs and pressing 125 for 5 reps. Est 1RM is about 145lbs.
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Not to kid you, but that's actually quite strong based on your weight.Also, I'm just curious because this is my weakest lift.
What is your 1RM on the Press? I'm 150 lbs and pressing 125 for 5 reps. Est 1RM is about 145lbs.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Yeah, that's quite a bit higher than my OHP and I outweigh you by a good 15 lbs.
http://www.strstd.com/
Plug your numbers in, that's well into "advanced" level at your weight.0 -
As I have some more experiance with this now, an update.
If your back is bothering you, use a split stance. It's actually better overall, more stable as I can tell, and totally relieves that pinch in your back at heavy weight.
At this point I just let the weight come down to wherever it naturally ends, not bothering to make sure it touches my chest. Usually it comes down to about an inch above my chest I guess, but I just let it "settle" so to speak, at the bottom of the rep, before pressing it for another rep. This seems to work.
Also, to protect your shoulders, be careful to give the bar even effort from both arms. This significantly improves my power (duh right?) and seems to alleviate the pressure either way.
Good to hear. You do have a pretty good OHP for your bodyweight. That makes me want to get back and seriously training my OHP again. Unfortunately I just use it as an assistance movement right now.
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