EXCESS SUGAR CAUSES OBESITY-MUST READ!
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So how can fructose be a poison, but it not be a poison when it is in natural food? It is two different quotes splice and edited and for a reason: at different times, he's stated two things that contradict each other.MoiAussi93 wrote: »
No, I'm simply not being charitable and letting the contradiction stand as some misunderstanding. Since you know exactly what he means, why don't you tell me how it isn't a contradiction instead of being reactionary and insisting to me what I do or do not understand.MoiAussi93 wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »
Lustig is a quack, he debunks himself:MoiAussi93 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
But you said it is how it works. If you expect others to prove a negative, you should stand ready to do the same. So... go!MoiAussi93 wrote: »
Well, you're the one who invented the board proof rules, so you should realize that's not how it works. LOL!DeguelloTex wrote: »
Prove he's not a quack.MoiAussi93 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »I've seen lots of Lustig-bashing here but never any evidence that he's a quack. Links please? Apply the usual standards to the quality of sources.
Links that says he is a quack? No. Links that disprove damn near everything he has said/written? yes.
Here is one.
http://sweetenerstudies.com/sites/default/files/resources/files/Scientific-Review-of-Lustigs-Fat-Chance.pdf
So you give us something published by the Corn Refiner's Association? Seriously? Using something published by a trade association to discredit a scientist whose conclusions are damaging to their industry is not very credible.
Ever hear of an obvious conflict of interest?
Or does this mean you've come around to seeing burden of proof in the same way it's been seen for thousands of years?
Or do you just go with whichever way always puts the burden of proof on others rather than yourself?
Calling someone a quack could be libelous in certain circumstances. That is very strong language. If you say that, you should be able to back it up with something other than a sugar industry blog.
I think most people reading this thread understand that very clearly. If you want to pretend not to, that's fine with me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ6LhzCrPpk
You either didn't understand what you saw, or you are pretending not to. What he said makes perfect sense.
He called fructose a poison and said it is not a poison at the same time. That's a contradiction. Do you not follow that?
No, you completely misunderstood that. He said there is no food that naturally contains fructose that is poisonous to humans. Then he said that we should "think of" fructose as poison because of all the bad effects it has on the human body. What don't you understand?
Are you really so desperate to defend him that you can't see it is a contradiction? Fructose is a molecule. You can't have it chemically unaltered in a natural food and have it be safe, and have it be a poison when it isn't. If he was trying to say it is a matter of the dose makes the poison, he's failed when he said it isn't poisonous in natural foods.
You're being extremely disingenuous. You know exactly what he was saying.
You posted a highly repetitive, highly edited video which you apparently find amusing. Great, I'm glad you are so easily amused, but he never contradicted himself and it is obvious what he is saying. To pretend otherwise is just silly. But go ahead, if that amuses you keep at it.
He never contradicted himself. That was, as I already said, highly edited. Surely, you realize this. Why play this silly game?
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Without even opening the link, I see 2 problems:
it's HuffPo
it uses the word "toxic" linked to a food
Looking at the opinion piece, there are more problems.
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That is not 'inappropriate energy storage', it's normal and necessary.you get sick from inappropriate energy storage (in your liver and muscle)
Very strange that an MD wouldn't know this.
First source of energy for the body is glucose - blood sugar. Quick access.
Next is glycogen. That's the carb that's stored in muscles & the liver. Slower access.
Then fat.
Then muscle. This is a _distant_ 4th for 2 reasons.
1 - it's an inefficient conversion (protein --> glucose) which he points out in his writing
2 - it's a hail Mary, hoping you'll find & eat food before your skeletal muscles, diaphragm, & heart stop working
(Hint: using muscle for energy is 'starvation mode'.)
.
But he also admits:"a calorie is a calorie" continues to be promulgated by the food industry as their defense against their culpability for the current epidemic of obesity and chronic metabolic disease
Then he goes back to his original idiocy:A calorie is a measurement of energy (a matter of physics)
What does the processing energy have to do with the calories in the food?protein wastes more energy in its processing. Plus protein reduces hunger better than carbohydrate. Because a calorie is not a calorie.
What does satiety have to do with the calories in the food? (Feeling full is determined by your stomach feeling
weight &/or stretching. So having a large salad or several apples or some carrots would be low-calorie,
high-water, stretching the stomach.)
And do you think that maybe, just perhaps, when the calories in food are determined, the scientists take into
account the fact that not all the calories actually in the food are absorbed into the body?
The only "culpability" the food industry has for obesity is that they make food more tasty, so people want to eat
more. If people didn't eat so much, didn't put so much food into their own bodies, they wouldn't be so fat. The
food industry doesn't force people to eat. In fact, they label foods as to calories, ingredients, etc. so consumers
can make informed choices.
.
Non sequitor.omega-3 fats are heart-healthy and will save your life, while trans fats clog your arteries, leading to a heart attack. Because a calorie is not a calorie.
The fact that fats act differently in/on the body does not mean that they don't contain the same energy (calories).
.
Water is not lead. Because a mile is not a mile.fructose is not glucose. Because a calorie is not a calorie.
Makes exactly the same amount of sense (zero).
.
OK. That still doesn't mean that a pound is not a pound, or that sugar _causes_ obesity.only changes in sugar availability explained changes in diabetes prevalence worldwide
Eating more than you burn causes obesity.
It's easy to eat lots of calories when drinking sugar or eating fat.
.
Or maybe they're being accurate in reporting what's in the food?the industry uses 56 other names for sugar on the label
You know, like the FDA requires them to do?
I'm willing to bet that they're not allowed to say "sugar", when really they're using glucose, fructose, galactose,
and probably several other "oses". (Hint: things ending in "ose" are sugars.)
.
True.if you're fat, it's your fault
Unless someone is forcing you to eat, or shoving food down your throat (like a goose being fattened for foie
gras [sp?]), the only thing responsible for you being fat is you eating too much.
.
Well, yeah. Anything in excess is a toxin. Oxygen. Water.Sugar in excess is a toxin
.
WHOA!!!The UK and Australia have just this past week laid down stricter guidelines for sugar consumption. The people and scientists of the United States are onto them as well. It's just a matter of time before the politicians follow.
Those countries don't have the history of personal freedom & responsibility that the USA does.
The nanny state is nearly always a Very Bad Idea. (Other than common-sense public health protections like
fluoridated water, mandatory vaccinations, quarantine of infectious people, drug-free workplaces, etc.)
Telling people what to eat, or what not to eat, REQUIRING them to eat a certain way, is right out.
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MoiAussi93 wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »
Gee, it's shocking that every person in the world is not the perfect weight. You should get this message out. I have no idea why scientists are wasting their careers and governments and corporations are spending millions researching something that has already been solved.stevencloser wrote: »
Here's the consensus: energy can't be created or destroyed, it can only change from one state to another. Where there's no excess energy, no energy can be stored.MoiAussi93 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »tigersword wrote: »
So, everyone else should read from a wide variety of viewpoints, but you can instantly dismiss all other viewpoints? Alan Aragon's blog is fantastic, the man has advanced degrees in human nutrition and is a published author in peer reviewed journals. He's not just trying to sell a book, he's trying to educate. If you actually read the blog, he doesn't try to sell any product in that entry, he's strictly taking Lustig's claims and refuting them with actual science. He even gets into an actual debate with Dr. Lustig himself in the comments section, which Alan easily won, as once he debunked Lustig's claims with peer reviewed references, Dr. Lustig was reduced to defending himself by stating that his video is popular, so he's right, no matter what the evidence actually says.MoiAussi93 wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »
"Alan's Blog" is not a peer reviewed medical journal. This guy's main claim to fame seems to be that he writes for Men's Health magazine and has a book of his own that he likes to promote. He's not even a scientist or a medical doctor.
Here's a good one. It even has a lot of science in it. http://anthonycolpo.com/why-you-cant-trust-the-abc-to-report-the-truth-about-diet-exercise-fat-loss/
ANOTHER blog...from a guy selling books with names like "The Fat Loss Bible".
LOL!
And... you didn't bother to read it. Of course. There's a lot of actual science in it. Just because it's a blog doesn't mean it isn't worth reading, or factual. You seem determined to run around with your eyes closed. While defending someone who just had an opinion that's being debunked with science. (which you'd know if you'd read the link)
It debunks nothing.
While a few blogs are worth reading they are nothing more than a starting point. To really understand an issue, or to discredit someone, you need "actual science". ..not yet another guy trying to convince you to buy his diet book instead of someone else's. The guy has several diet books...I really don't think relying on his blog to discredit someone whose theory hurts his book sales makes sense.
You should read things from a wide range of viewpoints...not just the blogs that you agree with.
Lustig also has advanced degrees...degrees that took more years of study than the guy with the blog. He also has published many research articles.
And typically when people are trying to sell a book, they don't mention it in an article attacking a competing viewpoint. That's not how it works. He has an agenda.
Lustig is also selling a book. Arguably with more of an agenda since it's basically "Here's why you're REALLY getting fat!"
How is that MORE of an agenda? Makes no sense.
It's a lot like the "She's 68 but looks like 20 thanks to this one trick The Man doesn't want you to know" clickbait ads.
It goes very against any scientific consensus of how weight loss and gain works, with a title that makes it sound like he has answers that no one else wants you to know etc.
I've seen all that before, I collect conspiracy theory books.
There is no scientific consensus. That is why there are constantly new studies being published in the area of nutrition as it related to obesity or health in general. It is an area that has many open questions at this point.
And it's not like he's the only person in the field expressing these beliefs.
Yes, I am being sarcastic. But you are greatly oversimplifying something that is extremely complicated. If you don't want to have a serious discussion, then why bother?
Says the one dismissing a published scientist as a blog guy.
You said there's no consensus on weight loss. There is, based on pretty much highschool physics. Sugar alone without creating a calorie surplus is incapable of making anyone obese. Lustig seemingly goes against this.
There is no consensus. People don't spend their lives in a lab under controlled conditions. WHAT you eat influences many things...such as blood sugar. Certain foods create cravings to eat more. Certain foods are more filling making it less likely you will overeat due to hunger. To ignore these things and pretend we are machines that simply eat what some calorie counter program tells us to eat is ridiculous.
Saying things like that is not at all helpful to anyone struggling. What you eat matters. For weight, and for health. Pretend otherwise if you like, but I won't.
No, they don't.
They do. In many, many, many people they do. This is currently an area of active study for a very good reason...many in the field think there is something to it, and millions of people deal with it every day.
Your link to the proof? As this was discussed, in great length, in a fabulous thread the other day, and there is no scientific proof to show that there is any food that causes cravings or addictions in humans.
Sigh0 -
Bronan_The_Brobarian wrote: »This thread is fantastic. Has anyone produced the studies that substantiate sugar being addictive in humans (inb4avenaratstudylol) and sugar bad for you?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2235907/
In humans. That states in the opening paragraph that it's a review of animal models.0 -
Let 'em think sugar makes you obese, more for us
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MsJulesRenee wrote: »Let 'em think sugar makes you obese, more for us
You can't see me, but I'm giving you a thumbs up.0 -
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Bronan_The_Brobarian wrote: »This thread is fantastic. Has anyone produced the studies that substantiate sugar being addictive in humans (inb4avenaratstudylol) and sugar bad for you?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2235907/
Rats are not human beings.0 -
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MoiAussi93 wrote: »
So how can fructose be a poison, but it not be a poison when it is in natural food? It is two different quotes splice and edited and for a reason: at different times, he's stated two things that contradict each other.MoiAussi93 wrote: »
No, I'm simply not being charitable and letting the contradiction stand as some misunderstanding. Since you know exactly what he means, why don't you tell me how it isn't a contradiction instead of being reactionary and insisting to me what I do or do not understand.MoiAussi93 wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »
Lustig is a quack, he debunks himself:MoiAussi93 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
But you said it is how it works. If you expect others to prove a negative, you should stand ready to do the same. So... go!MoiAussi93 wrote: »
Well, you're the one who invented the board proof rules, so you should realize that's not how it works. LOL!DeguelloTex wrote: »
Prove he's not a quack.MoiAussi93 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »I've seen lots of Lustig-bashing here but never any evidence that he's a quack. Links please? Apply the usual standards to the quality of sources.
Links that says he is a quack? No. Links that disprove damn near everything he has said/written? yes.
Here is one.
http://sweetenerstudies.com/sites/default/files/resources/files/Scientific-Review-of-Lustigs-Fat-Chance.pdf
So you give us something published by the Corn Refiner's Association? Seriously? Using something published by a trade association to discredit a scientist whose conclusions are damaging to their industry is not very credible.
Ever hear of an obvious conflict of interest?
Or does this mean you've come around to seeing burden of proof in the same way it's been seen for thousands of years?
Or do you just go with whichever way always puts the burden of proof on others rather than yourself?
Calling someone a quack could be libelous in certain circumstances. That is very strong language. If you say that, you should be able to back it up with something other than a sugar industry blog.
I think most people reading this thread understand that very clearly. If you want to pretend not to, that's fine with me.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ6LhzCrPpk
You either didn't understand what you saw, or you are pretending not to. What he said makes perfect sense.
He called fructose a poison and said it is not a poison at the same time. That's a contradiction. Do you not follow that?
No, you completely misunderstood that. He said there is no food that naturally contains fructose that is poisonous to humans. Then he said that we should "think of" fructose as poison because of all the bad effects it has on the human body. What don't you understand?
Are you really so desperate to defend him that you can't see it is a contradiction? Fructose is a molecule. You can't have it chemically unaltered in a natural food and have it be safe, and have it be a poison when it isn't. If he was trying to say it is a matter of the dose makes the poison, he's failed when he said it isn't poisonous in natural foods.
You're being extremely disingenuous. You know exactly what he was saying.
You posted a highly repetitive, highly edited video which you apparently find amusing. Great, I'm glad you are so easily amused, but he never contradicted himself and it is obvious what he is saying. To pretend otherwise is just silly. But go ahead, if that amuses you keep at it.
He never contradicted himself. That was, as I already said, highly edited. Surely, you realize this. Why play this silly game?
I'm still waiting for you to answer how fructose is poisonous in processed foods but not natural foods…?0 -
Bronan_The_Brobarian wrote: »crazyjerseygirl wrote: »Bronan_The_Brobarian wrote: »This thread is fantastic. Has anyone produced the studies that substantiate sugar being addictive in humans (inb4avenaratstudylol) and sugar bad for you?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2235907/
In humans. That states in the opening paragraph that it's a review of animal models.
Perhaps you're not aware many studies are done in rats in medical trials
Perhaps you're not aware that you're answering a question that was asked about humans?
ETA: oh I see what you're saying. I'm a researcher for a pharm company. I'm aware. I'm also aware of their limitations.0 -
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Especially if the lab / calculated calories are higher than what bodies absorb.stevencloser wrote:"Carbs make us obese!!" can't be because of the difference in what calories it has in a lab vs. what our body can use.
For those looking for good science, here's a place to start: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/
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Bronan_The_Brobarian wrote: »This thread is fantastic. Has anyone produced the studies that substantiate sugar being addictive in humans (inb4avenaratstudylol) and sugar bad for you?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2235907/
Oh, not again. People and rats don't react the same way to food. Or sugar. Or cancer drugs.0 -
Bronan_The_Brobarian wrote: »This thread is fantastic. Has anyone produced the studies that substantiate sugar being addictive in humans (inb4avenaratstudylol) and sugar bad for you?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2235907/
Oh, not again. People and rats don't react the same way to food. Or sugar. Or cancer drugs.
It's where you start, and it's valid research.0 -
MoiAussi93 wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »
Gee, it's shocking that every person in the world is not the perfect weight. You should get this message out. I have no idea why scientists are wasting their careers and governments and corporations are spending millions researching something that has already been solved.stevencloser wrote: »
Here's the consensus: energy can't be created or destroyed, it can only change from one state to another. Where there's no excess energy, no energy can be stored.MoiAussi93 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »tigersword wrote: »
So, everyone else should read from a wide variety of viewpoints, but you can instantly dismiss all other viewpoints? Alan Aragon's blog is fantastic, the man has advanced degrees in human nutrition and is a published author in peer reviewed journals. He's not just trying to sell a book, he's trying to educate. If you actually read the blog, he doesn't try to sell any product in that entry, he's strictly taking Lustig's claims and refuting them with actual science. He even gets into an actual debate with Dr. Lustig himself in the comments section, which Alan easily won, as once he debunked Lustig's claims with peer reviewed references, Dr. Lustig was reduced to defending himself by stating that his video is popular, so he's right, no matter what the evidence actually says.MoiAussi93 wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »
"Alan's Blog" is not a peer reviewed medical journal. This guy's main claim to fame seems to be that he writes for Men's Health magazine and has a book of his own that he likes to promote. He's not even a scientist or a medical doctor.
Here's a good one. It even has a lot of science in it. http://anthonycolpo.com/why-you-cant-trust-the-abc-to-report-the-truth-about-diet-exercise-fat-loss/
ANOTHER blog...from a guy selling books with names like "The Fat Loss Bible".
LOL!
And... you didn't bother to read it. Of course. There's a lot of actual science in it. Just because it's a blog doesn't mean it isn't worth reading, or factual. You seem determined to run around with your eyes closed. While defending someone who just had an opinion that's being debunked with science. (which you'd know if you'd read the link)
It debunks nothing.
While a few blogs are worth reading they are nothing more than a starting point. To really understand an issue, or to discredit someone, you need "actual science". ..not yet another guy trying to convince you to buy his diet book instead of someone else's. The guy has several diet books...I really don't think relying on his blog to discredit someone whose theory hurts his book sales makes sense.
You should read things from a wide range of viewpoints...not just the blogs that you agree with.
Lustig also has advanced degrees...degrees that took more years of study than the guy with the blog. He also has published many research articles.
And typically when people are trying to sell a book, they don't mention it in an article attacking a competing viewpoint. That's not how it works. He has an agenda.
Lustig is also selling a book. Arguably with more of an agenda since it's basically "Here's why you're REALLY getting fat!"
How is that MORE of an agenda? Makes no sense.
It's a lot like the "She's 68 but looks like 20 thanks to this one trick The Man doesn't want you to know" clickbait ads.
It goes very against any scientific consensus of how weight loss and gain works, with a title that makes it sound like he has answers that no one else wants you to know etc.
I've seen all that before, I collect conspiracy theory books.
There is no scientific consensus. That is why there are constantly new studies being published in the area of nutrition as it related to obesity or health in general. It is an area that has many open questions at this point.
And it's not like he's the only person in the field expressing these beliefs.
Yes, I am being sarcastic. But you are greatly oversimplifying something that is extremely complicated. If you don't want to have a serious discussion, then why bother?
Says the one dismissing a published scientist as a blog guy.
You said there's no consensus on weight loss. There is, based on pretty much highschool physics. Sugar alone without creating a calorie surplus is incapable of making anyone obese. Lustig seemingly goes against this.
There is no consensus. People don't spend their lives in a lab under controlled conditions. WHAT you eat influences many things...such as blood sugar. Certain foods create cravings to eat more. Certain foods are more filling making it less likely you will overeat due to hunger. To ignore these things and pretend we are machines that simply eat what some calorie counter program tells us to eat is ridiculous.
Saying things like that is not at all helpful to anyone struggling. What you eat matters. For weight, and for health. Pretend otherwise if you like, but I won't.
No, they don't.
They do. In many, many, many people they do. This is currently an area of active study for a very good reason...many in the field think there is something to it, and millions of people deal with it every day.
Your link to the proof? As this was discussed, in great length, in a fabulous thread the other day, and there is no scientific proof to show that there is any food that causes cravings or addictions in humans.
Sigh
Deep breathing as an exercise in avoidance?0 -
It's edited to put together two quotes that contradict themselves because they're from different talks. I'll rightly admit it, but now I feel you're trying to avoid showing how it isn't a contradiction, other than trying to perform refutation by repetition.MoiAussi93 wrote: »
So how can fructose be a poison, but it not be a poison when it is in natural food? It is two different quotes splice and edited and for a reason: at different times, he's stated two things that contradict each other.MoiAussi93 wrote: »
No, I'm simply not being charitable and letting the contradiction stand as some misunderstanding. Since you know exactly what he means, why don't you tell me how it isn't a contradiction instead of being reactionary and insisting to me what I do or do not understand.MoiAussi93 wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »
Lustig is a quack, he debunks himself:MoiAussi93 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
But you said it is how it works. If you expect others to prove a negative, you should stand ready to do the same. So... go!MoiAussi93 wrote: »
Well, you're the one who invented the board proof rules, so you should realize that's not how it works. LOL!DeguelloTex wrote: »
Prove he's not a quack.MoiAussi93 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »I've seen lots of Lustig-bashing here but never any evidence that he's a quack. Links please? Apply the usual standards to the quality of sources.
Links that says he is a quack? No. Links that disprove damn near everything he has said/written? yes.
Here is one.
http://sweetenerstudies.com/sites/default/files/resources/files/Scientific-Review-of-Lustigs-Fat-Chance.pdf
So you give us something published by the Corn Refiner's Association? Seriously? Using something published by a trade association to discredit a scientist whose conclusions are damaging to their industry is not very credible.
Ever hear of an obvious conflict of interest?
Or does this mean you've come around to seeing burden of proof in the same way it's been seen for thousands of years?
Or do you just go with whichever way always puts the burden of proof on others rather than yourself?
Calling someone a quack could be libelous in certain circumstances. That is very strong language. If you say that, you should be able to back it up with something other than a sugar industry blog.
I think most people reading this thread understand that very clearly. If you want to pretend not to, that's fine with me.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ6LhzCrPpk
You either didn't understand what you saw, or you are pretending not to. What he said makes perfect sense.
He called fructose a poison and said it is not a poison at the same time. That's a contradiction. Do you not follow that?
No, you completely misunderstood that. He said there is no food that naturally contains fructose that is poisonous to humans. Then he said that we should "think of" fructose as poison because of all the bad effects it has on the human body. What don't you understand?
Are you really so desperate to defend him that you can't see it is a contradiction? Fructose is a molecule. You can't have it chemically unaltered in a natural food and have it be safe, and have it be a poison when it isn't. If he was trying to say it is a matter of the dose makes the poison, he's failed when he said it isn't poisonous in natural foods.
You're being extremely disingenuous. You know exactly what he was saying.
You posted a highly repetitive, highly edited video which you apparently find amusing. Great, I'm glad you are so easily amused, but he never contradicted himself and it is obvious what he is saying. To pretend otherwise is just silly. But go ahead, if that amuses you keep at it.
He never contradicted himself. That was, as I already said, highly edited. Surely, you realize this. Why play this silly game?
Let's do this in logical steps:
1. Fructose is a molecule.
2. Molecules are the same and retain their same chemical properties when in mixtures like food.
3. Lustig said fructose is poison
4. It follows from 2 and 3 that foods that contain fructose are therefore poisonous.
5. Lustig said no natural food containing fructose is poisonous.
6. 4 and 5 contradict each other, we must conclude one of the premises in 1,2,3, or 5 are false.0 -
The non-edited continuous parts of the video areMoiAussi93 wrote: »
So how can fructose be a poison, but it not be a poison when it is in natural food? It is two different quotes splice and edited and for a reason: at different times, he's stated two things that contradict each other.MoiAussi93 wrote: »
No, I'm simply not being charitable and letting the contradiction stand as some misunderstanding. Since you know exactly what he means, why don't you tell me how it isn't a contradiction instead of being reactionary and insisting to me what I do or do not understand.MoiAussi93 wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »
Lustig is a quack, he debunks himself:MoiAussi93 wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
But you said it is how it works. If you expect others to prove a negative, you should stand ready to do the same. So... go!MoiAussi93 wrote: »
Well, you're the one who invented the board proof rules, so you should realize that's not how it works. LOL!DeguelloTex wrote: »
Prove he's not a quack.MoiAussi93 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »I've seen lots of Lustig-bashing here but never any evidence that he's a quack. Links please? Apply the usual standards to the quality of sources.
Links that says he is a quack? No. Links that disprove damn near everything he has said/written? yes.
Here is one.
http://sweetenerstudies.com/sites/default/files/resources/files/Scientific-Review-of-Lustigs-Fat-Chance.pdf
So you give us something published by the Corn Refiner's Association? Seriously? Using something published by a trade association to discredit a scientist whose conclusions are damaging to their industry is not very credible.
Ever hear of an obvious conflict of interest?
Or does this mean you've come around to seeing burden of proof in the same way it's been seen for thousands of years?
Or do you just go with whichever way always puts the burden of proof on others rather than yourself?
Calling someone a quack could be libelous in certain circumstances. That is very strong language. If you say that, you should be able to back it up with something other than a sugar industry blog.
I think most people reading this thread understand that very clearly. If you want to pretend not to, that's fine with me.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ6LhzCrPpk
You either didn't understand what you saw, or you are pretending not to. What he said makes perfect sense.
He called fructose a poison and said it is not a poison at the same time. That's a contradiction. Do you not follow that?
No, you completely misunderstood that. He said there is no food that naturally contains fructose that is poisonous to humans. Then he said that we should "think of" fructose as poison because of all the bad effects it has on the human body. What don't you understand?
Are you really so desperate to defend him that you can't see it is a contradiction? Fructose is a molecule. You can't have it chemically unaltered in a natural food and have it be safe, and have it be a poison when it isn't. If he was trying to say it is a matter of the dose makes the poison, he's failed when he said it isn't poisonous in natural foods.
You're being extremely disingenuous. You know exactly what he was saying.
You posted a highly repetitive, highly edited video which you apparently find amusing. Great, I'm glad you are so easily amused, but he never contradicted himself and it is obvious what he is saying. To pretend otherwise is just silly. But go ahead, if that amuses you keep at it.
He never contradicted himself. That was, as I already said, highly edited. Surely, you realize this. Why play this silly game?
1) him saying no natural food with fructose in it is poisonous to humans, it's in our dna to like it because it's safe food. Fructose = yum yum
and
2) him agreeing to someone saying to regard fructose as poison as result of his presentation
How is that not contradictory unless he and you think fructose in one thing is different than fructose in another?0 -
MoiAussi93 wrote: »Bronan_The_Brobarian wrote: »This thread is fantastic. Has anyone produced the studies that substantiate sugar being addictive in humans (inb4avenaratstudylol) and sugar bad for you?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2235907/
Oh, not again. People and rats don't react the same way to food. Or sugar. Or cancer drugs.
It's where you start, and it's valid research.
Absolutely, when the research proves out the original theory. But it's already been proven that rat studies and sugar don't carry over to human studies. Just as it has with many cancer research studies.0 -
Bronan_The_Brobarian wrote: »FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »Bronan_The_Brobarian wrote: »This thread is fantastic. Has anyone produced the studies that substantiate sugar being addictive in humans (inb4avenaratstudylol) and sugar bad for you?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2235907/
Rats are not human beings.
Are you sure? Go watch the GOP debate
I work closely with politicians. In fact, I was at a debate watch party so I've been there, done that. Not quite sure where you are trying to go with the debate.
I'll say it again… rats are not humans. While there are similarities, there are certainly limitations when it comes to using animal models in research. Functional similarities do not equal biological similarities.0 -
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Bronan_The_Brobarian wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »Bronan_The_Brobarian wrote: »This thread is fantastic. Has anyone produced the studies that substantiate sugar being addictive in humans (inb4avenaratstudylol) and sugar bad for you?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2235907/
Oh, not again. People and rats don't react the same way to food. Or sugar. Or cancer drugs.
It's where you start, and it's valid research.
Absolutely, when the research proves out the original theory. But it's already been proven that rat studies and sugar don't carry over to human studies. Just as it has with many cancer research studies.
What does cancer studies have to do with this conversation?
Rats are used in lab research often in many different studies that are intended to carry over to human trials. However, when the original studies are carried over to human trials, the research doesn't prove out - it has happened in both the food trials, and the cancer research trials - it's a correlation between the two. Showing that just because something happens in rats, doesn't mean it's going to happen in humans the same way.0 -
Bronan_The_Brobarian wrote: »crazyjerseygirl wrote: »Bronan_The_Brobarian wrote: »This thread is fantastic. Has anyone produced the studies that substantiate sugar being addictive in humans (inb4avenaratstudylol) and sugar bad for you?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2235907/
In humans. That states in the opening paragraph that it's a review of animal models.
Perhaps you're not aware many studies are done in rats in medical trials
Using rats for sugar research has failing in that rats perform de novo lipogensis at far greater rates than humans, and are far less likely to clear their body's sugar content. A normal human being is going to clear out 100g of glucose a day just fueling the brain.0 -
Bronan_The_Brobarian wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »Bronan_The_Brobarian wrote: »This thread is fantastic. Has anyone produced the studies that substantiate sugar being addictive in humans (inb4avenaratstudylol) and sugar bad for you?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2235907/
Oh, not again. People and rats don't react the same way to food. Or sugar. Or cancer drugs.
It's where you start, and it's valid research.
Absolutely, when the research proves out the original theory. But it's already been proven that rat studies and sugar don't carry over to human studies. Just as it has with many cancer research studies.
What does cancer studies have to do with this conversation?
Nice avoidance tactic!0 -
No, just how I sometimes handle dealing with people who aren't being logical.MoiAussi93 wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »
Gee, it's shocking that every person in the world is not the perfect weight. You should get this message out. I have no idea why scientists are wasting their careers and governments and corporations are spending millions researching something that has already been solved.stevencloser wrote: »
Here's the consensus: energy can't be created or destroyed, it can only change from one state to another. Where there's no excess energy, no energy can be stored.MoiAussi93 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »tigersword wrote: »
So, everyone else should read from a wide variety of viewpoints, but you can instantly dismiss all other viewpoints? Alan Aragon's blog is fantastic, the man has advanced degrees in human nutrition and is a published author in peer reviewed journals. He's not just trying to sell a book, he's trying to educate. If you actually read the blog, he doesn't try to sell any product in that entry, he's strictly taking Lustig's claims and refuting them with actual science. He even gets into an actual debate with Dr. Lustig himself in the comments section, which Alan easily won, as once he debunked Lustig's claims with peer reviewed references, Dr. Lustig was reduced to defending himself by stating that his video is popular, so he's right, no matter what the evidence actually says.MoiAussi93 wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »MoiAussi93 wrote: »
"Alan's Blog" is not a peer reviewed medical journal. This guy's main claim to fame seems to be that he writes for Men's Health magazine and has a book of his own that he likes to promote. He's not even a scientist or a medical doctor.
Here's a good one. It even has a lot of science in it. http://anthonycolpo.com/why-you-cant-trust-the-abc-to-report-the-truth-about-diet-exercise-fat-loss/
ANOTHER blog...from a guy selling books with names like "The Fat Loss Bible".
LOL!
And... you didn't bother to read it. Of course. There's a lot of actual science in it. Just because it's a blog doesn't mean it isn't worth reading, or factual. You seem determined to run around with your eyes closed. While defending someone who just had an opinion that's being debunked with science. (which you'd know if you'd read the link)
It debunks nothing.
While a few blogs are worth reading they are nothing more than a starting point. To really understand an issue, or to discredit someone, you need "actual science". ..not yet another guy trying to convince you to buy his diet book instead of someone else's. The guy has several diet books...I really don't think relying on his blog to discredit someone whose theory hurts his book sales makes sense.
You should read things from a wide range of viewpoints...not just the blogs that you agree with.
Lustig also has advanced degrees...degrees that took more years of study than the guy with the blog. He also has published many research articles.
And typically when people are trying to sell a book, they don't mention it in an article attacking a competing viewpoint. That's not how it works. He has an agenda.
Lustig is also selling a book. Arguably with more of an agenda since it's basically "Here's why you're REALLY getting fat!"
How is that MORE of an agenda? Makes no sense.
It's a lot like the "She's 68 but looks like 20 thanks to this one trick The Man doesn't want you to know" clickbait ads.
It goes very against any scientific consensus of how weight loss and gain works, with a title that makes it sound like he has answers that no one else wants you to know etc.
I've seen all that before, I collect conspiracy theory books.
There is no scientific consensus. That is why there are constantly new studies being published in the area of nutrition as it related to obesity or health in general. It is an area that has many open questions at this point.
And it's not like he's the only person in the field expressing these beliefs.
Yes, I am being sarcastic. But you are greatly oversimplifying something that is extremely complicated. If you don't want to have a serious discussion, then why bother?
Says the one dismissing a published scientist as a blog guy.
You said there's no consensus on weight loss. There is, based on pretty much highschool physics. Sugar alone without creating a calorie surplus is incapable of making anyone obese. Lustig seemingly goes against this.
There is no consensus. People don't spend their lives in a lab under controlled conditions. WHAT you eat influences many things...such as blood sugar. Certain foods create cravings to eat more. Certain foods are more filling making it less likely you will overeat due to hunger. To ignore these things and pretend we are machines that simply eat what some calorie counter program tells us to eat is ridiculous.
Saying things like that is not at all helpful to anyone struggling. What you eat matters. For weight, and for health. Pretend otherwise if you like, but I won't.
No, they don't.
They do. In many, many, many people they do. This is currently an area of active study for a very good reason...many in the field think there is something to it, and millions of people deal with it every day.
Your link to the proof? As this was discussed, in great length, in a fabulous thread the other day, and there is no scientific proof to show that there is any food that causes cravings or addictions in humans.
Sigh
Deep breathing as an exercise in avoidance?
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