Calories, fat, and sugar and CICO debate with hubby

rosebette

My husband's Type II diabetic, and last night we were at dinner, eating our salads. I had 2 kinds of dressings on the table, Marzetti Classic Ranch, which is 160 cal for 2 TBs, and Kraft Zesty Lowfat Italian, which is about 15 calories for the same serving. Hubby said that he had been listening to or reading something that said that for diabetics, fat is good and that he should avoid lowfat products. My argument for choosing the Kraft dressing was that it was significantly lower in calories, and for someone my size, 160 calories could be the difference between having a snack or an extra couple of ounces of meat. He said that the sugar in the dressing is more damaging; the Italian dressing had 2 g, while the Marzetti had only 1. I've heard similar arguments from other diabetics. When traveling a month or so ago, two of my traveling companions who were diabetic would refuse fruit at the breakfast buffet or when offered it by fellow travelers, but would eat ice cream because they claimed the fat in the ice cream "canceled out" the sugar. Anyone care to "weigh in" on this one?

slaite1

If your husband is diabetic he needs to watch his sugar-but you don't. Although I can't imagine worrying about 1g vs 2g. If weight is in issue it's quite possible the lower calorie option would be a better choice for him overall. As usual, though-it's all in the context of his overall diet.

Fat cancels out sugar?? No. Fat can help slow digestion-but I don't know it's effect on sugar absorption in diabetics. Some things can help keep blood sugar levels stable-but I would think ice cream (often loaded with fat AND sugar) would not be the best choice for a diabetic..

rosebette

My husband is also overweight, but a big guy; eating an extra 160 calories doesn't make as big a dent in his allowance as it does in mine. Of the two women I was traveling with, one was moderately overweight, but the other was normal weight but trying to control her diabetes by diet alone. I think sometimes people "fool" themselves into basically doing what they want to do.

cwolfman13

diabetics do have to watch their sugar...but I'm not sure I'd concern myself with 1 gram vs 2 grams.

your friends should seek some dietary advice from an actual dietician and not believe everything they read...my dad was a type II diabetic and I worked with him and his dietitian for a number of years on his diet...fruit was a regular part of his diet as were heaping helpings of vegetables and whole grains. eating ice cream on a regular basis as a diabetic is pretty stupid...every once in awhile, sure...but that shouldn't be a regular part of a diabetics diet. your friends are morons.

rosebette

I'm sort of in charge of hubby's diet when he's home because I control what comes into the house. I don't buy ice cream much, and am sure glad he wasn't traveling with these ladies because it would just give him motivation to follow more bad habits!

KittensMaster

I reversed my type 2 and lost about 130 pounds in 2 years

People have some very illogical ideas about nutrition

1 gram of sugar does not equal 100 more calories.

Fat never cancels out sugar

Losing weight will make him less insulin resistant.

Exercise will burn out the glycogen in your system

So reduce sugar intake, limit calories per the universal CICO, and exercise rigorously and burn some blood sugar off!

Over time with consistent effort, weight will come off and almost always type 2 gets much better

It can get better for most people with diet and exercise

It is sad to hear someone eating ice cream for the fat content...

He seems to have a misapplication of the reasoning behind fat content in some foods slowing the sugar spike. That is kind of like the glycemic index calculation but taking liberties with it

The diabetic needs to want to change and get on board with it. It is a tough path but something one can do.

Best wishes with the situation.

maillemaker

For most people, you only need to worry about calories to lose weight.

If you have health issues you might have to worry about macros, but they still have to eat a deficit if they want to lose weight.

nvmomketo

I'm prediabetic, or I was before I changed my diet to cut out added sugars and go low carb with high amounts of healthy fats. Reducing carbs and sugars will lower his insulin response (probably) and will most likely help control his blood glucose levels and A1C.

The few salad dressings I own have no added sugars at all. Knowing sugars won't help me manage my blood glucose, I chose to avoid brands with added sugars and focus on fat content instead. besides, I'd rather eat some extra veggies than have the extra sugar added to my dressing.

Dr Bernstein's Diabetes Solution is a really good book for educating diabetics on how to control their blood sugars, and lose weight by eating LCHF diet (at a small deficit). Following that I normalized my blood sugar in under two weeks (it was borderline diabetic) and I have lost about 18lbs in 7 weeks on a caloric deficit designed to help me lose 1.5 lbs per week. (I only want to lose another 20 to 25lbs since my BMI is getting back into normal range.) My endocrinologist told me to cut back on fats and eat more veggies, which didn't work for me because it led to greater hunger and increased carb cravings - and weight gain. LOL

LCHF works for me, and has been found to be effective in the majority of individuals with insulin resistance. Eggs, meat, cheese, cream, nuts, greens, colourful veggies and low GI fruits like berries are good foods for diabetics; it would be good to keep the house stocked on those (if he goes LCHF). Dr Bernstein advises sugars, flours, starches (potato and rice), and sweet fruits (mangos, grapes, banana) are avoided or limited to small amounts if combined with proteins and fats.

LKArgh

He is right about needing to be very careful about "light" products, as often fat is replaced by sugar, fructose etc, to improve the taste. He appears to be very confused though about fat "cancelling" sugar, there is no such thing. If he is also overweight, he needs to watch both calories and carbs.
In the salad example, assumign you are eating at home, the safest option for him in his salads is probably a tablespoon or two of something like a vinegrette or a yoghurt based dressing etc where you can both control calories and not add extra sugar.

jgnatca

He is correct to avoid the sugar if he can, even in picking the higher fat dressing. He has his dressing; you have yours.

Your ice cream consuming friends are wrong.

Fat does not cancel out sugar.

Fat helps with satiety, and because of its' very slow absorption rate (8+ hours) works well for a diabetic. They still have to watch their portions, however!

dubird

For you, just losing weight means mostly watching calories. Macros too, simply to make sure you're getting the nutrition you need, but calorie deficit is key. For him, he does need to pay attention the sugar/carb section of the nutrition label as well as the calories. My husband is Type 2 as well, and I've learned to pay attention to that myself when picking something out for us to eat together. Of course, in doing so, I've made my diet better because I can't just live off Chef Boyardee anymore. XD But when it comes to something like salad dressing, 1g difference isn't that huge an issue unless he's really really REALLY close to what his meal limit is. Tell him to go to the store and pick out one he can eat that he would like, and keep that stocked (or made, if it's a recipe). If you do most of the cooking, find out what his doctor said his meal limit of sugars/carbs is, and find recipes that fit that. It's also good to find out what he had for lunch. I never suggest pasta for dinner unless I suggest it for the next day so HSpoon can make his lunch very light carb so he can enjoy it.

I have never heard about fat canceling out sugar, I honestly can't see how that would work. It's true that a lot of companies replace fat with sugar to make low-fat things, so that may be where the confusion is.

extra_medium

If it was a really sugary dressing yes, but I don't think 1g vs 2g of sugar justifies the extra calories in the ranch.

Kexessa

My dog is diabetic but that is as close to the disease as I've ever gotten. I know she can't have high carbohydrates unless it's right before or after her insulin shot.

I know fat does not cancel out sugar.

A lot of diabetics seem to be misinformed. I know someone who is pre-diabetic and they sip alcoholic beverages from noon till bedtime under the guise that "if my liver is busy metabolizing alcohol, I can eat what I want since my liver can't turn anything into sugar."

Like I said, I know little to nothing about diabetes but even I know this can't be true.

Maybe he meant he should avoid lowfat products when they have been loaded with sugar to compensate for the removal of fat?

jaga13

rosebette wrote: »

My husband's Type II diabetic, and last night we were at dinner, eating our salads. I had 2 kinds of dressings on the table, Marzetti Classic Ranch, which is 160 cal for 2 TBs, and Kraft Zesty Lowfat Italian, which is about 15 calories for the same serving. Hubby said that he had been listening to or reading something that said that for diabetics, fat is good and that he should avoid lowfat products. My argument for choosing the Kraft dressing was that it was significantly lower in calories, and for someone my size, 160 calories could be the difference between having a snack or an extra couple of ounces of meat. He said that the sugar in the dressing is more damaging; the Italian dressing had 2 g, while the Marzetti had only 1. I've heard similar arguments from other diabetics. When traveling a month or so ago, two of my traveling companions who were diabetic would refuse fruit at the breakfast buffet or when offered it by fellow travelers, but would eat ice cream because they claimed the fat in the ice cream "canceled out" the sugar. Anyone care to "weigh in" on this one?

The answer is clear: you are two different people with two different needs! Although I agree with others that 1g vs 2g sugar is such a small difference that it isn't worth the extra calories, it ultimately is a matter of individual needs and preferences. Even if there was agreement that the Kraft choice was healthier, it wouldn't matter if your husband simply doesn't like it. If eating the 160 calorie choice makes him happy, and more likely to stick to an appropriate overall calorie amount, then it works for him....but if it ISN'T working for him, then he should obviously consider some changes. Still, what works for you isn't always going to work for him.

RockstarWilson

rosebette wrote: »

I'm sort of in charge of hubby's diet when he's home because I control what comes into the house. I don't buy ice cream much, and am sure glad he wasn't traveling with these ladies because it would just give him motivation to follow more bad habits!

Do the research on how a high fat diet can help diabetes. When used properly, a diabetic can get insulin levels where they need to be through a high fat, lower carb diet. Some have even managed to cure themselves of the disease, and I am sure you will not be short of those people here on MFP. Just check out the LCHF groups.

Personally, I use dressing that is 95% fat: Kens Steakhouse Buttermilk Ranch or Kraft Classic Buttermilk Ranch. Ken's tastes better, though.

RockstarWilson

And when they say "fat cancels out sugar," they are talking about macro percentages. In full-fat dairy ice cream, more than 50% of the calories come from fat. So, by eating some ice cream, those people are staying within their macro percentages. If the carbs are mixed with a greater amount of fat per gram, it will take the body more time to get to the sugar, because it has to metabolize the fat too. Therefore, the conversion of carbs into glucose will happen at a lesser rate than if they, say, ate a bowl of fruit. The sugars in fruit are naked and therefore will get metabolized faster than will the sugars in the ice cream.

That is my understanding of it. I could be wrong. If I am wrong, please explain why, but I think that is what your fellow diabetics mean when they say "fat cancels out carbs/sugars."

Need2Exerc1se

KittensMaster wrote: »

I reversed my type 2 and lost about 130 pounds in 2 years

People have some very illogical ideas about nutrition

1 gram of sugar does not equal 100 more calories.

Fat never cancels out sugar

Losing weight will make him less insulin resistant.

Exercise will burn out the glycogen in your system

So reduce sugar intake, limit calories per the universal CICO, and exercise rigorously and burn some blood sugar off!

Over time with consistent effort, weight will come off and almost always type 2 gets much better

It can get better for most people with diet and exercise

It is sad to hear someone eating ice cream for the fat content...

He seems to have a misapplication of the reasoning behind fat content in some foods slowing the sugar spike. That is kind of like the glycemic index calculation but taking liberties with it

The diabetic needs to want to change and get on board with it. It is a tough path but something one can do.

Best wishes with the situation.

I'm not diabetic, but I have a lot of relatives that are. This sounds like what most of them have been advised by their physicians.

Another reason for pushing fat is that when sugar/carbs are lowered you need to fill in the gaps with something and many diabetics have kidney problems. High protein can stress kidneys.

ClubSilencio

Bottled salad dressings are usually terrible. I just looked up the ingredients for both bottles and it's appalling.

Soybean oil, distilled vinegar, MSG, and lots of other junk.

I think if someone is type II diabetic it's important to look beyond just carbs and fats.

ahoy_m8

Ironically, it is fiber (such as found in fruit) that moderates the insulin response, essentially slowing metabolism of the sugars and evening out the blood sugar spike-crash. Your traveling companions would be better off, from a blood sugar perspective, with fruit than ice cream (unless they are eating a cup of lentils or something high fiber with that ice cream). I agree with you, OP, that some people make up "facts" and believe what they want to justify doing what they want.

rosebette

Wouldn't calories also be important, though? If someone is overweight and diabetic, wouldn't consuming 160 worth of salad dressing be problematic unless it fills the person up so much he/she wouldn't be consuming 160 calories of something else?

aledba

Being that you're worried about sugar and fat and the health of your family, you may want to consider doing away with commercial salad dressing. No other way to say it - that stuff is evil! Homemade stuff is easier to track and you can get very creative with your recipes.

My favourite is to take the juice of thawed strawberries, add a little salt, some EVOO and a little balsamic vinegar, add some dried herbs (basil, tarragon, fennel) and shake it up.

jemhh

rosebette wrote: »

Wouldn't calories also be important, though? If someone is overweight and diabetic, wouldn't consuming 160 worth of salad dressing be problematic unless it fills the person up so much he/she wouldn't be consuming 160 calories of something else?

If he has the calories in his calorie budget, there is nothing problematic about it.

rosebette

Since he doesn't track his food, I wouldn't know if it's "in his budget." I know he eats pretty big portions of everything that's served. I'm interested in that Bernstein book. Can anyone send me a link?

umayster

RockstarWilson wrote: »

And when they say "fat cancels out sugar," they are talking about macro percentages. In full-fat dairy ice cream, more than 50% of the calories come from fat. So, by eating some ice cream, those people are staying within their macro percentages. If the carbs are mixed with a greater amount of fat per gram, it will take the body more time to get to the sugar, because it has to metabolize the fat too. Therefore, the conversion of carbs into glucose will happen at a lesser rate than if they, say, ate a bowl of fruit. The sugars in fruit are naked and therefore will get metabolized faster than will the sugars in the ice cream.

That is my understanding of it. I could be wrong. If I am wrong, please explain why, but I think that is what your fellow diabetics mean when they say "fat cancels out carbs/sugars."

I think that is a good simple explanation. Sugar eaten alone has a different affect on glucose/insulin than sugar combined with fat or protein.

yarwell

Mixed meal responses are different to pure glucose response, but not massively :-

nvmomketo

rosebette wrote: »

Since he doesn't track his food, I wouldn't know if it's "in his budget." I know he eats pretty big portions of everything that's served. I'm interested in that Bernstein book. Can anyone send me a link?

http://www.diabetes-book.com/

http://forum.diabetes-book.com/readit/chapter_10.pdf

rosebette

Thanks for sending it. Wow, a lot of things are no-nos, including all fruits and even some veggies.

jgnatca

Overnight I thought of something else. Tell hubby an after-dinner walk will really help keep those blood numbers in line!

rosebette

jgnatca wrote: »

Overnight I thought of something else. Tell hubby an after-dinner walk will really help keep those blood numbers in line!

I've been fighting that battle for a long time! He plays and coaches baseball, so in spring/summer, he loses 18-20 lbs., which he gains back in fall when he becomes sedentary again. He has a gym where he works, but won't get up early enough to use it and then ends up working too late and not going. We have dinner late because he works so late, so it's too dark for a walk.

jgnatca

You both would be amazed at the improved sugar numbers with a little exercise after a meal. You might have to get creative. Maybe Just Dance with a Nintendo wii.

Pinnacle_IAO

Our argument last night was over me whistling while using the bathroom.
We're simple people....