Strength Training- Reps 12-10-8- until failure question
raven56706
Posts: 918 Member
im currently trying to switch up my workouts and wondering about this one.
it would essentially be 4 sets with 12-10-8 and then the last set will be until failure. This approach has been said to have the benefits of building bigger muscles. is this true?
it would essentially be 4 sets with 12-10-8 and then the last set will be until failure. This approach has been said to have the benefits of building bigger muscles. is this true?
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Replies
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Here is a link that talks about different rep ranges: http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/how-many-sets-and-reps-per-exercise/0
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Loads of 60% or better of your estimated 1 rep max are what's called for. Depending on where the % falls will dictate how many reps you will be able to accomplish for each set (i.e.. 85% would typically fall in the 5-7 rep range). The higher % you attempt, the heavier the weight, so less reps will be achieved; conversely, lighter weight used will allow more reps to be achieved. If you account for the same overall volume (weight x reps x sets) for both, working in the higher intensity %s (more strength influence) will cause just as much muscle growth as working in the lower intensity %s (again assuming volume is equal between the two). The main difference though is, you won't be able to recover as fast compared to working in lower %s; therefore, working with lower %s and more reps, you will recover faster and be able to train more frequently over time, thus more volume, so more hypertrophy. Again, this is also assuming you are also providing enough food to be in a caloric surplus.
I would research for an existing program aligned with your goals and preferences that follows progressively adding weight and/sets/reps over time along with proper deloads to help mitigate fatigue.
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What you Want is progressive overload. It is highly debateable really in terms of lifting for " strength" and lifting for "size" because there is natural overlap between the two. For strength you want to be in the 4-6 rep range as that hits the type 2 muscle fibers. Where as more repetitions only trigger the type 1 muscle fibers ( which are low intensity endurance type aka slow twitch).
If you're not pushing (adding more) to your weights that you lift after 4-6 weeks then you are nobin progrssive overload and not really getting stronger.
You see people all the time in the gym doing the same exercises and pushing the same weight for same number if sets and never progress, doing the same ole 8-12 rep range.0 -
What you Want is progressive overload. It is highly debateable really in terms of lifting for " strength" and lifting for "size" because there is natural overlap between the two. For strength you want to be in the 4-6 rep range as that hits the type 2 muscle fibers. Where as more repetitions only trigger the type 1 muscle fibers ( which are low intensity endurance type aka slow twitch).
If you're not pushing (adding more) to your weights that you lift after 4-6 weeks then you are nobin progrssive overload and not really getting stronger.
You see people all the time in the gym doing the same exercises and pushing the same weight for same number if sets and never progress, doing the same ole 8-12 rep range.
You have some misunderstanding of type 1 and type 2 muscle fiber recruitment. Intensity (heavier) does not dictate muscle type recruitment... effort does. A good read if your interested about the science.
http://www.cbass.com/Carpinelli.htm
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raven56706 wrote: »im currently trying to switch up my workouts and wondering about this one.
it would essentially be 4 sets with 12-10-8 and then the last set will be until failure. This approach has been said to have the benefits of building bigger muscles. is this true?
It's fine. Go for it0 -
What you Want is progressive overload. It is highly debateable really in terms of lifting for " strength" and lifting for "size" because there is natural overlap between the two. For strength you want to be in the 4-6 rep range as that hits the type 2 muscle fibers. Where as more repetitions only trigger the type 1 muscle fibers ( which are low intensity endurance type aka slow twitch).
If you're not pushing (adding more) to your weights that you lift after 4-6 weeks then you are nobin progrssive overload and not really getting stronger.
You see people all the time in the gym doing the same exercises and pushing the same weight for same number if sets and never progress, doing the same ole 8-12 rep range.
You have some misunderstanding of type 1 and type 2 muscle fiber recruitment. Intensity (heavier) does not dictate muscle type recruitment... effort does. A good read if your interested about the science.
http://www.cbass.com/Carpinelli.htm
As I stated in my post, "highly debateable". I too can post a link to someones blog restating my position. The link you gave is ones as well, it is not "science" or clinical research.
http://www.muscleforlife.com/guide-to-muscle-hypertrophy-muscle-growth/
http://weighttraining.about.com/od/weighttrainingforsport/a/Muscle-Fiber-Type-And-What-It-Means-For-Strength-Training.htm
EFFECT OF RELATIVE LOAD ON FIBER AREA GROWTH
It has often been suggested that training with high loads and low repetition sets could preferentially target growth in type II muscle fibers. In contrast, it has been suggested that training with low loads and high repetition sets could preferentially target growth type I muscle fibers. From a review of the literature, it appears that resistance-training with heavy loads tends to cause a superior increase in the fiber type of all fiber areas, which is broadly in line with the (non-significant) findings of the systematic review and meta-analysis performed by Schoenfeld et al. (2014). However, there are some minor indications that training with low loads may produce a preferential increase in type I muscle fiber area. For example, in Mitchell et al. (2012), the group training with 30% of 1RM increased type I muscle fiber area by nearly twice as much as type II muscle fiber area, while the group training with 80% of 1RM increased both type I and type II muscle fiber areas by a similar amount. Similarly, Campos et al. (2002) found that the increases in type I fiber area were similar to the increases in type IIA and type IIX area in the 20 – 28RM group. In contrast, the increases in type I fiber area were much smaller than the increases in type IIA and type IIX fiber area in the 3 – 5RM group. Nevertheless, these results are in contrast to the findings of Schuenke et al. (2012), who reported that the increase in type I fiber area of the 30% of 1RM group was minimal and much lower than the increase in type IIA and type IIX fiber areas.
from
http://www.strengthandconditioningresearch.com/hypertrophy/muscle-fiber-type/
I tend to disagree with your premise. Powerlifters work in the 4-6 rep range for a reason, it works.0 -
What you Want is progressive overload. It is highly debateable really in terms of lifting for " strength" and lifting for "size" because there is natural overlap between the two. For strength you want to be in the 4-6 rep range as that hits the type 2 muscle fibers. Where as more repetitions only trigger the type 1 muscle fibers ( which are low intensity endurance type aka slow twitch).
If you're not pushing (adding more) to your weights that you lift after 4-6 weeks then you are nobin progrssive overload and not really getting stronger.
You see people all the time in the gym doing the same exercises and pushing the same weight for same number if sets and never progress, doing the same ole 8-12 rep range.
You have some misunderstanding of type 1 and type 2 muscle fiber recruitment. Intensity (heavier) does not dictate muscle type recruitment... effort does. A good read if your interested about the science.
http://www.cbass.com/Carpinelli.htm
As I stated in my post, "highly debateable". I too can post a link to someones blog restating my position. The link you gave is ones as well, it is not "science" or clinical research.
http://www.muscleforlife.com/guide-to-muscle-hypertrophy-muscle-growth/
http://weighttraining.about.com/od/weighttrainingforsport/a/Muscle-Fiber-Type-And-What-It-Means-For-Strength-Training.htm
EFFECT OF RELATIVE LOAD ON FIBER AREA GROWTH
It has often been suggested that training with high loads and low repetition sets could preferentially target growth in type II muscle fibers. In contrast, it has been suggested that training with low loads and high repetition sets could preferentially target growth type I muscle fibers. From a review of the literature, it appears that resistance-training with heavy loads tends to cause a superior increase in the fiber type of all fiber areas, which is broadly in line with the (non-significant) findings of the systematic review and meta-analysis performed by Schoenfeld et al. (2014). However, there are some minor indications that training with low loads may produce a preferential increase in type I muscle fiber area. For example, in Mitchell et al. (2012), the group training with 30% of 1RM increased type I muscle fiber area by nearly twice as much as type II muscle fiber area, while the group training with 80% of 1RM increased both type I and type II muscle fiber areas by a similar amount. Similarly, Campos et al. (2002) found that the increases in type I fiber area were similar to the increases in type IIA and type IIX area in the 20 – 28RM group. In contrast, the increases in type I fiber area were much smaller than the increases in type IIA and type IIX fiber area in the 3 – 5RM group. Nevertheless, these results are in contrast to the findings of Schuenke et al. (2012), who reported that the increase in type I fiber area of the 30% of 1RM group was minimal and much lower than the increase in type IIA and type IIX fiber areas.
from
http://www.strengthandconditioningresearch.com/hypertrophy/muscle-fiber-type/
I tend to disagree with your premise. Powerlifters work in the 4-6 rep range for a reason, it works.
Of course it does, never said that the effect of intensity does not. But you referenced an example where the test subjects used 30% of 1 rep max. My original statement was that of 60% or higher. One training at 85%-90% of 1RM will by definition have to put in more effort initially due for that intensity; however, someone training at slightly lesser % (my original statement of 60% or more) that would allow 8-12 rep range, will for those last reps, still incorporate almost the same amount of effort still recruiting those varied muscle fibers. The sited research you provided does not refute this (again, assuming we are talking about the % and thus respective rep ranges I had originally stated. You can do a lot of reps at 30% of 1RM, so that's a specious argument against my original and follow up statement as that low % goes to the far extreme and outside of the context of this discussion).
Your original statement is what I had issue with "For strength you want to be in the 4-6 rep range as that hits the type 2 muscle fibers. (Lifting in the 8-12 rep range will also hit type 2 muscle fibers due to the EFFORT needed for those last reps, so inferring otherwise would be incorrect. Just because a body builder is typically not as strong as a power lifter, does not mean they are not strong). "Where as more repetitions only trigger the type 1 muscle fibers (which are low intensity endurance type aka slow twitch)." (again, you are inferring that if you do more reps, you won't trigger type 2 because you stated only trigger the type 1 muscle. How can you not recruit type 2 fibers if your perform a few more reps due to the intensity percentage (thus range) I specified and your EFFORT is maximal or even to muscle failure?)0 -
im looking for strength and muscle definition. Im pretty sure the definition comes with the diet and cardio combo to shed the fat. But i want to get stronger too.
so question, for the reps i said should just gradually add weight?
for the 4-6 rep range, should it just be the heaviest weight i can do? how many sets?0 -
raven56706 wrote: »im looking for strength and muscle definition. Im pretty sure the definition comes with the diet and cardio combo to shed the fat. But i want to get stronger too.
so question, for the reps i said should just gradually add weight?
for the 4-6 rep range, should it just be the heaviest weight i can do? how many sets?
From the sounds of it, it sounds like you have not lifted before, so I would suggest a good beginner program like ICF 5x5. This will have the basic compound movements like bench press, squat, deadlift, and rows to build a base of strength and muscle, but will also include some accessory work for arms, etc... The program has all of the scheduled weight increases and accounts for failures and deloads as needed. Main thing is to run the program as written. People will typically take between 6 months to 1+ years to exhaust this type of program until you will need to progress to an Intermediate level program which adds weight a little more slowly and can be tweaked more to align with whatever your goals are at that time.
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Higher reps builds muscle, 8/12, strength 3-5, don't over think it, use compound movements, bench, squat, OHP, deadlift, depending on your goal, go for strength one week, then next time do more of a bodybuilding rep range 8-12, build that foundation, use high *kitten* reps in the accessory work lifts, keep it up man!0
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raven56706 wrote: »im looking for strength and muscle definition. Im pretty sure the definition comes with the diet and cardio combo to shed the fat. But i want to get stronger too.
so question, for the reps i said should just gradually add weight?
for the 4-6 rep range, should it just be the heaviest weight i can do? how many sets?
From the sounds of it, it sounds like you have not lifted before, so I would suggest a good beginner program like ICF 5x5. This will have the basic compound movements like bench press, squat, deadlift, and rows to build a base of strength and muscle, but will also include some accessory work for arms, etc... The program has all of the scheduled weight increases and accounts for failures and deloads as needed. Main thing is to run the program as written. People will typically take between 6 months to 1+ years to exhaust this type of program until you will need to progress to an Intermediate level program which adds weight a little more slowly and can be tweaked more to align with whatever your goals are at that time.
i have been lifting for awhile but this is on my own and im getting stronger. The thing is i have been doing the same routine for awhile and want to change it up every 2 weeks.0 -
raven56706 wrote: »raven56706 wrote: »im looking for strength and muscle definition. Im pretty sure the definition comes with the diet and cardio combo to shed the fat. But i want to get stronger too.
so question, for the reps i said should just gradually add weight?
for the 4-6 rep range, should it just be the heaviest weight i can do? how many sets?
From the sounds of it, it sounds like you have not lifted before, so I would suggest a good beginner program like ICF 5x5. This will have the basic compound movements like bench press, squat, deadlift, and rows to build a base of strength and muscle, but will also include some accessory work for arms, etc... The program has all of the scheduled weight increases and accounts for failures and deloads as needed. Main thing is to run the program as written. People will typically take between 6 months to 1+ years to exhaust this type of program until you will need to progress to an Intermediate level program which adds weight a little more slowly and can be tweaked more to align with whatever your goals are at that time.
i have been lifting for awhile but this is on my own and im getting stronger. The thing is i have been doing the same routine for awhile and want to change it up every 2 weeks.
Why? YOu don't have to keep changing routines to "confuse" your body. If you're doing progressive overloading, your body will change.
Since you're just branching out on your own, I would look into Stronglifts 5x5 or Ice Cream Fitness 5x5. Starting Strength could also be a possible program. These programs help build strength and retain lean body mass as you lose. As you lose the fat over the muscles, you'll look leaner and more defined.0 -
I've basically done this and it's seemed to work for me. Of course, that was back in my 20's. I still do it now too, but I'm sure I'm not building any more muscle. Lol, HRT would have to be the route to do it now.raven56706 wrote: »im currently trying to switch up my workouts and wondering about this one.
it would essentially be 4 sets with 12-10-8 and then the last set will be until failure. This approach has been said to have the benefits of building bigger muscles. is this true?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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raven56706 wrote: »raven56706 wrote: »im looking for strength and muscle definition. Im pretty sure the definition comes with the diet and cardio combo to shed the fat. But i want to get stronger too.
so question, for the reps i said should just gradually add weight?
for the 4-6 rep range, should it just be the heaviest weight i can do? how many sets?
From the sounds of it, it sounds like you have not lifted before, so I would suggest a good beginner program like ICF 5x5. This will have the basic compound movements like bench press, squat, deadlift, and rows to build a base of strength and muscle, but will also include some accessory work for arms, etc... The program has all of the scheduled weight increases and accounts for failures and deloads as needed. Main thing is to run the program as written. People will typically take between 6 months to 1+ years to exhaust this type of program until you will need to progress to an Intermediate level program which adds weight a little more slowly and can be tweaked more to align with whatever your goals are at that time.
i have been lifting for awhile but this is on my own and im getting stronger. The thing is i have been doing the same routine for awhile and want to change it up every 2 weeks.
So I will post a link discussing "changing it up" (with a bow to @jemhh who referred you to this website initially)
http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/when-why-how-often-should-you-change-your-workout-routine/
So if you have been lifting for some time, what will it hurt to follow a properly designed and systematized program like ones that have mentioned (ICF 5x5, StrongLifts, etc...) and maybe experience more or faster gains than you currently are by doing what you are doing? At worst, you still get stronger/bigger (again assuming calories are in line) and will have learned a little something about proper programming.
If you can come back and tell me you are currently bench pressing over 225lbs+, squatting 300lbs for reps, and deadlifting over 400lbs... then we definitely have a discussion to go further into an Intermediate program aligned to your goals. And these are generalities, not hardline numbers.0 -
I've basically done this and it's seemed to work for me. Of course, that was back in my 20's. I still do it now too, but I'm sure I'm not building any more muscle. Lol, HRT would have to be the route to do it now.raven56706 wrote: »im currently trying to switch up my workouts and wondering about this one.
it would essentially be 4 sets with 12-10-8 and then the last set will be until failure. This approach has been said to have the benefits of building bigger muscles. is this true?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
what is HRT?0 -
HRT -Hormone Replacement Therapy (i.e... Testosterone)0
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raven56706 wrote: »raven56706 wrote: »im looking for strength and muscle definition. Im pretty sure the definition comes with the diet and cardio combo to shed the fat. But i want to get stronger too.
so question, for the reps i said should just gradually add weight?
for the 4-6 rep range, should it just be the heaviest weight i can do? how many sets?
From the sounds of it, it sounds like you have not lifted before, so I would suggest a good beginner program like ICF 5x5. This will have the basic compound movements like bench press, squat, deadlift, and rows to build a base of strength and muscle, but will also include some accessory work for arms, etc... The program has all of the scheduled weight increases and accounts for failures and deloads as needed. Main thing is to run the program as written. People will typically take between 6 months to 1+ years to exhaust this type of program until you will need to progress to an Intermediate level program which adds weight a little more slowly and can be tweaked more to align with whatever your goals are at that time.
i have been lifting for awhile but this is on my own and im getting stronger. The thing is i have been doing the same routine for awhile and want to change it up every 2 weeks.
So I will post a link discussing "changing it up" (with a bow to @jemhh who referred you to this website initially)
http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/when-why-how-often-should-you-change-your-workout-routine/
So if you have been lifting for some time, what will it hurt to follow a properly designed and systematized program like ones that have mentioned (ICF 5x5, StrongLifts, etc...) and maybe experience more or faster gains than you currently are by doing what you are doing? At worst, you still get stronger/bigger (again assuming calories are in line) and will have learned a little something about proper programming.
If you can come back and tell me you are currently bench pressing over 225lbs+, squatting 300lbs for reps, and deadlifting over 400lbs... then we definitely have a discussion to go further into an Intermediate program aligned to your goals. And these are generalities, not hardline numbers.
i cant squat(because of my neck) and deadlift (neck as well). Im just trying to keep the muscles thinking different
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If you have medical constraints, then you need to confer with a Dr. on what you can and can't do as I definitely would not feel comfortable in recommending any program or exercise thereof for whatever rep range, etc... due to a medical/physical constraint issue.0
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raven56706 wrote: »raven56706 wrote: »im looking for strength and muscle definition. Im pretty sure the definition comes with the diet and cardio combo to shed the fat. But i want to get stronger too.
so question, for the reps i said should just gradually add weight?
for the 4-6 rep range, should it just be the heaviest weight i can do? how many sets?
From the sounds of it, it sounds like you have not lifted before, so I would suggest a good beginner program like ICF 5x5. This will have the basic compound movements like bench press, squat, deadlift, and rows to build a base of strength and muscle, but will also include some accessory work for arms, etc... The program has all of the scheduled weight increases and accounts for failures and deloads as needed. Main thing is to run the program as written. People will typically take between 6 months to 1+ years to exhaust this type of program until you will need to progress to an Intermediate level program which adds weight a little more slowly and can be tweaked more to align with whatever your goals are at that time.
i have been lifting for awhile but this is on my own and im getting stronger. The thing is i have been doing the same routine for awhile and want to change it up every 2 weeks.
every two weeks???
y so much cardio?0 -
raven56706 wrote: »raven56706 wrote: »im looking for strength and muscle definition. Im pretty sure the definition comes with the diet and cardio combo to shed the fat. But i want to get stronger too.
so question, for the reps i said should just gradually add weight?
for the 4-6 rep range, should it just be the heaviest weight i can do? how many sets?
From the sounds of it, it sounds like you have not lifted before, so I would suggest a good beginner program like ICF 5x5. This will have the basic compound movements like bench press, squat, deadlift, and rows to build a base of strength and muscle, but will also include some accessory work for arms, etc... The program has all of the scheduled weight increases and accounts for failures and deloads as needed. Main thing is to run the program as written. People will typically take between 6 months to 1+ years to exhaust this type of program until you will need to progress to an Intermediate level program which adds weight a little more slowly and can be tweaked more to align with whatever your goals are at that time.
i have been lifting for awhile but this is on my own and im getting stronger. The thing is i have been doing the same routine for awhile and want to change it up every 2 weeks.
every two weeks???
y so much cardio?
to keep the body guessing. if you dont think so, then please let me know of some good ways of approaching this. love the feedback. and what cardio?
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You don't have to keep your body guessing. Your body only has one brain and if you are thinking about changing your exercise plan, it already knows it.
Unless I really hate a new program, I like to stick with a program for at least 3 months. That gives me time to see some progress/improvement. Changing it every two weeks wouldn't give me time to memorize what comes next and I'd spend every workout looking at my notes every two minutes.0 -
gotcha... thats good to know...0
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All of this is dependent on your diet too. You need to make sure your calories correspond to your goals.0
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Tdstrength wrote: »Higher reps builds muscle, 8/12, strength 3-5, don't over think it, use compound movements, bench, squat, OHP, deadlift, depending on your goal, go for strength one week, then next time do more of a bodybuilding rep range 8-12, build that foundation, use high *kitten* reps in the accessory work lifts, keep it up man!
This is good advice. Depending on what I'm going for (strength vs hypertrophy), I'll spend more time on the heavy compound lifts or more time on the higher rep accessory lifts.0 -
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raven56706 wrote: »
You must eat enough to gain weight. Get around 1 gram of protein/lb of lean body weight and the rest of your calories from carbs and fats. If you are gaining weight, then you have what is needed in place to gain fat and muscle (notice I put fat first as you put more fat on than muscle regardless, unless you have some "medicated help" or the genetics of a god) if you are lifting systematically to increase weight and/or volume (as properly designed programs do). If you don't offer stimulus for your muscles to grow, then you will end up just putting on fat.0 -
you guys are offering great advice and i appreciate it.
the reasoning behind my questions is my dilemma. Im trying to burn fat and get strong at the same time. Which i think is doable. The problem is im on anti depressant medicine for which its making me gain weight. Im not letting that stop me from trying to beat that wall but i might be fighting super brick wall. Exercise obviously helps big time so i want to try everything to burn fat.
so im trying everything my peeps...0 -
double post meh0
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Eat at a deficit and follow a strength program. You'll lose fat and gain strength even if not building muscle. Basically, you're training your muscles/nerves to work more efficiently. Once you're happy with your fat loss you can decide if body recomposition (eating at maintenance or close to and lifting to build muscle) or a bulk (eat over maintenance and put on muscle) is right for you.
I also take antidepressants that have a possible weight gain as a side effect. As long as I weighed and logged my food and kept a deficit, I had no issues losing what I wanted. I countered the increased appetite with filling foods (fat, protein, fiber).
ETA: Pick a program like strong lifts, starting strength, ice cream fitness, etc and stick with it. They're all progressive programs what will have you increasing weight at regular intervals and are ones that you can stick with long term. No need to keep switching programs if you're regularly upping your weights. As for medical issues making lifts difficult, most programs have alternative lifts but you may need the advice of a physical therapist too.
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Eat at a deficit and follow a strength program. You'll lose fat and gain strength even if not building muscle. Basically, you're training your muscles/nerves to work more efficiently. Once you're happy with your fat loss you can decide if body recomposition (eating at maintenance or close to and lifting to build muscle) or a bulk (eat over maintenance and put on muscle) is right for you.
I also take antidepressants that have a possible weight gain as a side effect. As long as I weighed and logged my food and kept a deficit, I had no issues losing what I wanted. I countered the increased appetite with filling foods (fat, protein, fiber).
ETA: Pick a program like strong lifts, starting strength, ice cream fitness, etc and stick with it. They're all progressive programs what will have you increasing weight at regular intervals and are ones that you can stick with long term. No need to keep switching programs if you're regularly upping your weights. As for medical issues making lifts difficult, most programs have alternative lifts but you may need the advice of a physical therapist too.
^^ What she said.
Was typing something up and noticed this was pretty much in line with what I was typing, so nothing more to add.0
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