Data Trackers Unite
OsricTheKnight
Posts: 340 Member
I'll use the first post of this thread to link people's different tracking methods, and we can discuss and encourage on the tail of the thread. My next post will be about me - if you're interested, introduce yourself and put your charts in and let's hold each other accountable!
Osric
P.S. Sections for each person who joins us will be below.
Osric
Osric
P.S. Sections for each person who joins us will be below.
Osric
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Replies
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As promised, my "about Osric" thread.
Partly I'm starting this thread so that I can stop saying the same things over and over again in other people's threads. I don't get a lot of responses so I can assume that most MFP'ers don't like my perspective or don't agree with it, and that's cool with me.
What I'm looking for in this thread is people who believe in the basic truth of CICO. Those with IR or other odd conditions need not apply - please tackle your problems in threads of like-minded people elsewhere.
What's worked for me excellently in the past is simply this: eat less. A lot less. Try to get some exercise, but that's secondary to eating less. Weigh in daily, and chart the trend to make sense of the scale. I use trendweight.com, and that's the chart I'll link for myself above. Here it is:
It's been a good 4 weeks. But I've only really just gotten back on track - previously I had my weight all the way down to 155 and my goal is about 135, so I'm essentially starting over (not quite, as my peak weight was about 240 ... technically, according to the criteria used by the weightloss database, I'm almost a "successful loser" ... but really not, in my view).
I use a bodymedia fit to track calorie burn, and am logging all that I eat on MFP. I'm not stuck on doing super accurate logging because the charting gives me my deficit more accurately than logging can, but logging helps me indulge reasonably and still get good data points so it's useful for that.
Looking forward to having like-minded data oriented individuals join the thread! What I need the most help with is getting some exercise in - some basic olympic lifts plus rowing for cardio is all I feel I need to do, but just doing it is something I haven't succeeded at.
Osric0 -
selfish attention-seeking bump. Hoping that there are just 1-2 people who want to track via trendweight and support each other on this thread.
Osric0 -
I've never used trendweight, but see the logic behind it. In reality though, all it's doing is watching the trend, which I can do based on my real weights?
As for CICO, I think most people here agree, within limits of individual things that affect the overall numbers and trends. But personally I don't agree with exercise being secondary to eating habits. Net calories creates the deficit, regardless of how you get to that number IMO.
If you and I had the same statistics and goals, you could simply eat 1000 calories a day below maintenance and create a 1000 calorie a day deficit, or about a 2 lb a week loss. I could eat full maintenance calories and exercise 1000 calories a day, and still have the same net calories per day.0 -
I love tracking, but what I like to track will vary somewhat according to perceived needs and thus interest. I used to love counting calories - now I just log what I eat, and no amounts. I have tracked satiety, now I just eat my set meals and adjust if necessary. I weigh every day, and use Trendweight, but the graphs confuse me a little, so I calculate the weekly average too; if it rises steadily for a month, it means that I need to cut down on my intake. I have been off calorie counting just for a little over a month and have been through one zig-zag cycle.0
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@robertw486 all it's doing is providing a moving average of the weight data points, which you can do in a spreadsheet or using any number of equivalent graphing tools. Then it uses least-squares to fit a line to the trend, in order to project your weight loss, and this allows it to compute your daily deficit (or surplus). That deficit number is way more accurate than what you'll have via logging, and also gets you to focus on how small changes can have a big impact. When your calorie budget is, say, 1800/day, a 50 calorie or even 100 calorie indulgence seems small; if your deficit is 486/day, suddenly a 100 calorie indulgence is > 20% of your progress for the day.
So it's not magic, but it does help me focus on what matters to me: weight loss, consistent weight loss.
Also, I find that if I really overindulge, I immediately see it as a data point which is above the moving average. This allows me to distinguish between small more recoverable failures and a really bad day, which is motivating. It especially helps me stop "throwing in the towel" after one eating mistake, because I know that one eating mistake won't make a bad point on the graph but an entire day's binge will.
Regarding exercise, again what you say is true. 1,000 calories is 1,000 calories no matter how you come by it. But consider: 15 minutes of running a 5% gradient at 5mph is about 250 calories for a 200 pound individual. So 1,000 calories is an entire hour's run, plus actually making myself do it, plus showering afterward.
Even 250 calories is a 15m run plus shower.
1 DQ blizzard > 750 kcals, or 45 minutes.
1 Krispy Kreme Blueberry Muffin > 350 kcals or 23 minutes.
1 Starbucks Cranberry Orange Muffin > 400 kcals or 24.6 minutes.
For me, resisting these tasty treats is a lot easier than making it down to my treadmill. So that's why focusing on the input instead of output works better for me.
@kommodevaran I'd love to add your graph above if you're willing. Also more than happy to help interpret them along the way - I've used trendweight and other similar tools a lot and there's no real need for you to work out your own averages if you don't want to. Though I do think that sometimes handling your own data helps it be more real. Let me know!
Osric0 -
What the heck are you guys talking about?0
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@jessica22222 It'd be easier to answer if I knew what part wasn't clear :-)
A few things: CICO ==> Calories In, Calories Out - the rule that decides if you lose or gain. If you know your input and your output, it takes 3,500 calories to burn a pound of fat. So if you eat 500 kcals/day less than you burn, you'll lose 1lb/week, rain or shine. This simple fact controls everything about weight loss.
trendweight.com is a website that will take your weigh ins and make a graph. For example, I weigh in daily, and here are a month's worth of weights from MFP's graph:
If I was looking at this each day I'd have given up by now. Look at all the up and down spots! Look how little progress I make most weeks! It's godawful. Take those same data points and put them into trendweight.com, and you get this:
It's hard to believe it's the same data right? The diamonds are the weights from the scale. trendweight automatically computes a trend based on multiple weigh ins - that's the dark line on the graph. I look at this graph and can easily see my progress. If I misbehave, I get a diamond above the line the very next day and I know what I did wrong the previous day. It is super motivating.
Not only do I get good feedback and can easily see how it's going, but I also get output that tells me my daily deficit. Right now, for me, trendweight.com says:You are losing 1.9 lbs/week of total weight.
You are burning 973 cal/day more than you eat
So I know exactly how fast it's going. I know that if I eat an extra 100 kcal snack tomorrow, I will slow myself down by 10%. God forbid I have a DQ blizzard - that'd basically undo all my progress. Because 973 calories a day is all my progress, and any excess eating is going to chip away at that and stop my loss or even worse lead to gain.
For me, trendweight.com is an awesome tool that lets me see how my decisions affect my progress, and that my progress is for real, while the scale is a terrible, random thing that gives numbers that don't seem to relate at all to my efforts.
Osric0 -
OsricTheKnight wrote: »@kommodevaran I'd love to add your graph above if you're willing. Also more than happy to help interpret them along the way - I've used trendweight and other similar tools a lot and there's no real need for you to work out your own averages if you don't want to. Though I do think that sometimes handling your own data helps it be more real. Let me know!
Osric
Here's mine for the last three months:
What I've come to understand - I think - is that the fluctuations show my, well, regularity. I didn't make the connection until yesterday? I eat roughly the same amount of calories from day to day, do the same amount of physical exertion every day. Some days I have a larger salt intake, thus retaining more water, and I can see that reflected to some extent, but mostly, it's just waste (not waist). So I have to take the message "You are burning X cal/day more/less than you eat" with a pinch of salt.0 -
I keep track of lots of things.
^Wasn't logging the calories in sweetener packets, Diet MTN Dew and/or Crystal Light
^With logging the calories in sweetener packets, Diet MTN Dew and/or Crystal Light
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Count me in. I don't track every detail to the nth degree, but I do keep a scale at work for weighing out sandwich fixins', granola, and even Clif Bars (labels say 68g, I've seen up to 82g!). I eat out a lot, and while I try to accurately account for it, I know it's really tough to be completely accurate. I don't try to go under goal (-500 cals per day) but it does happen from time to time. If I'm feeling motivated, I'll drink some of those extra calories as a protein shake. Sometimes it becomes a beer or ice cream, but usually, it just becomes deficit.
It's what works for me, and the trendweight graph seems to agree. TW makes it much easier to handle the "up" days. Since I started tracking 7/1, I've had now 29 up days--Nearly half!
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kommodevaran wrote: »What I've come to understand - I think - is that the fluctuations show my, well, regularity. I didn't make the connection until yesterday? I eat roughly the same amount of calories from day to day, do the same amount of physical exertion every day. Some days I have a larger salt intake, thus retaining more water, and I can see that reflected to some extent, but mostly, it's just waste (not waist). So I have to take the message "You are burning X cal/day more/less than you eat" with a pinch of salt.
Your chart looks awesome. However I think for you, it'd be better to use a tool like libra where you can set the moving average # of days to a longer amount - say 20, or 25 - so that it doesn't look like you're constantly gaining and losing within each month. That'll dampen down the calorie calculation too, as it'll take a more long term trend for it to freak you out with gaining.
The downsides to my suggestion are: (1) I'm not aware of a way to configure trendweight or any other online graph to control the size of the average, so you'd have to use one of the apps or graph yourself manually which is a PITA; and (2) it'll take longer to actually show a problem if one is occurring which will make it more work to get back to center if something changes and you become underweight or overweight relative to your goal.
The other option would just be to know the cycle for yourself and know you can relax as your chart gently bounces up and down within your goal range. As long as you don't leave the green area you're maintaining and that's fine. How many calories does it estimate for your deficit/surplus? Maybe you can treat any number lower than 200 kcals as basically equal to 0.
Osric
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shadow2soul wrote: »I keep track of lots of things.
Nice! The spirit of the thread is to share what we're tracking and what we're learning from it, so feel free to propose any or all of the things you track as stuff that should be in your section!
I am familiar with how the weight graph works for me, would love to know what you're learning from the other stuff you're tracking!
In terms of expected loss, you could try to make it more accurate by factoring in lean vs fat loss. Probably you're computing expected loss based on 3500 kcal/pound, but that's only true for pounds of pure fat. If you have body fat percentages, you can compute your expected loss based on the ratio of fat calories to lean calories, and then do fat calories/3500 + lean calories/600 = expected loss. (I am not confident in 600 kcals/pound of lean, we might want to check that figure - I thought it was more like 1800 - we will have to research the right number if you want to try it.)
Osric
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6502programmer wrote: »Count me in.
Nice chart!
6502programmer
I can't figure out how to edit the title post. My idea was that if I added all our charts to the title post we'd have them for reference anywhere in the thread as it grows ... but it looks like I can edit the most recent comment only? Anybody know for sure?
Osric
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They only give you 1 hr to edit posts on the main message boards. In groups, the group leader can edit their posts at any time.
And I don't now my BF%. I want to get it tested sometime because I'm curious. So for right now, I'm just using the 3500 number.
The first 2 things up on my previous post are to keep track of how my actual loss/estimated TDEE based on Intake line up with my Fitbit calorie burn. It helps me see what needs to be adjusted. In Feb, I got the Fitbit Surge and while my previous Fitbits underestimated my calorie burn enough that not logging the things I listed above didn't effect anything (in fact I still lost faster than expected) when I switched to the Surge my weight loss became slower than expected. When I started logging the little calorie things that I was skipping before, my expected and actual weight loss became much closer numbers. I continue to keep track of it in case at some point my Surge actually starts overestimating my calorie burn (at which point I'll stop eating the full calorie adjustment).0 -
OsricTheKnight wrote: »I can't figure out how to edit the title post. My idea was that if I added all our charts to the title post we'd have them for reference anywhere in the thread as it grows ... but it looks like I can edit the most recent comment only? Anybody know for sure?
Osric
You have one hour to edit a post.
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shadow2soul wrote: »They only give you 1 hr to edit posts on the main message boards. In groups, the group leader can edit their posts at any time.
We could make this a group ... would that be better? It'd allow for multiple threads of conversation...
Osric0 -
OsricTheKnight wrote: »shadow2soul wrote: »They only give you 1 hr to edit posts on the main message boards. In groups, the group leader can edit their posts at any time.
We could make this a group ... would that be better? It'd allow for multiple threads of conversation...
That's a much more manageable critter, I would assume!0 -
OsricTheKnight wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »What I've come to understand - I think - is that the fluctuations show my, well, regularity. I didn't make the connection until yesterday? I eat roughly the same amount of calories from day to day, do the same amount of physical exertion every day. Some days I have a larger salt intake, thus retaining more water, and I can see that reflected to some extent, but mostly, it's just waste (not waist). So I have to take the message "You are burning X cal/day more/less than you eat" with a pinch of salt.
Your chart looks awesome. However I think for you, it'd be better to use a tool like libra where you can set the moving average # of days to a longer amount - say 20, or 25 - so that it doesn't look like you're constantly gaining and losing within each month. That'll dampen down the calorie calculation too, as it'll take a more long term trend for it to freak you out with gaining.
The downsides to my suggestion are: (1) I'm not aware of a way to configure trendweight or any other online graph to control the size of the average, so you'd have to use one of the apps or graph yourself manually which is a PITA; and (2) it'll take longer to actually show a problem if one is occurring which will make it more work to get back to center if something changes and you become underweight or overweight relative to your goal.
The other option would just be to know the cycle for yourself and know you can relax as your chart gently bounces up and down within your goal range. As long as you don't leave the green area you're maintaining and that's fine. How many calories does it estimate for your deficit/surplus? Maybe you can treat any number lower than 200 kcals as basically equal to 0.
Osric
This is what I have noticed too, even though I don't have all the terms that you do
I want to aim for the same weight I had three months ago - one month is not enough. On the other hand, one month is a lot to catch up with if I should get off track.
Trendweight feels that my deficit is around 207 calories/day now.
I don't have a smartphone (my phone used to be called that, when I bought it, though). Do you have a way for (or an alternative to) Libra that I can use on my PC?0 -
shadow2soul wrote: »I keep track of lots of things.
^Wasn't logging the calories in sweetener packets, Diet MTN Dew and/or Crystal Light
^With logging the calories in sweetener packets, Diet MTN Dew and/or Crystal Light
Now that's a lot of data!
Did you make your own spreadsheets for your calorie deficit vs weight loss, or did you snag them online somewhere? Just curious as I was thinking about doing one just to get down to the details of where my logging is inaccurate.
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OsricTheKnight wrote: »@robertw486 all it's doing is providing a moving average of the weight data points, which you can do in a spreadsheet or using any number of equivalent graphing tools. Then it uses least-squares to fit a line to the trend, in order to project your weight loss, and this allows it to compute your daily deficit (or surplus). That deficit number is way more accurate than what you'll have via logging, and also gets you to focus on how small changes can have a big impact. When your calorie budget is, say, 1800/day, a 50 calorie or even 100 calorie indulgence seems small; if your deficit is 486/day, suddenly a 100 calorie indulgence is > 20% of your progress for the day.
So it's not magic, but it does help me focus on what matters to me: weight loss, consistent weight loss.
Also, I find that if I really overindulge, I immediately see it as a data point which is above the moving average. This allows me to distinguish between small more recoverable failures and a really bad day, which is motivating. It especially helps me stop "throwing in the towel" after one eating mistake, because I know that one eating mistake won't make a bad point on the graph but an entire day's binge will.
Regarding exercise, again what you say is true. 1,000 calories is 1,000 calories no matter how you come by it. But consider: 15 minutes of running a 5% gradient at 5mph is about 250 calories for a 200 pound individual. So 1,000 calories is an entire hour's run, plus actually making myself do it, plus showering afterward.
Even 250 calories is a 15m run plus shower.
1 DQ blizzard > 750 kcals, or 45 minutes.
1 Krispy Kreme Blueberry Muffin > 350 kcals or 23 minutes.
1 Starbucks Cranberry Orange Muffin > 400 kcals or 24.6 minutes.
For me, resisting these tasty treats is a lot easier than making it down to my treadmill. So that's why focusing on the input instead of output works better for me.
@kommodevaran I'd love to add your graph above if you're willing. Also more than happy to help interpret them along the way - I've used trendweight and other similar tools a lot and there's no real need for you to work out your own averages if you don't want to. Though I do think that sometimes handling your own data helps it be more real. Let me know!
Osric
Completely understood on the reasoning, and I guess for all of us the data at hand is used different ways.
I usually look more at my entire week trend, vs a single day. It does the same thing in a less graphic way, and also is more forgiving of the days I blow it and eat bad.
And much like yourself, I often now think of food in a way of "what have I earned, or what am I willing to put in extra exercise for". It's a great motivation for me. Often when I want to indulge in something less healthy (or even justify a beer or two) I do it on days that I have a lot of eating to do because of a harder than usual exercise. This helps me see it as a rewards of sorts.
I might give trendweight a try. I'm leaning more towards working up a spreadsheet and some graphing on the computer. I don't have a wifi scale, but I do have one that reports hydration and fat percentages. Joined up with sodium data it might show the water retention trend after excess sodium, or how hydration levels affect your true weight.
In either case, I'm a data hound by nature, so if you start a group count me in.
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OK it took a few tries to make without error, but here's the group:
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/group/108727-data-trackers
Let's pick up the discussion over there...
Osric0
This discussion has been closed.
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